posted December 03, 2018 01:39 AM            

But, that Mars IS (pretty much) square his own.

just noticed your Venus is on his Eros.. hmm .. sexy time And all the rest of them. But, you know, these can be lures. Lures into dark lusty worlds that are like quicksand to find your way out again.

And, it's close enough to his Pluto to enter his kite too. But that Venus IS square his own too.

Will it be triggering or learning and growing?

This is getting very interesting. Which way it will goo.. Can he handle the heat StoneMoon? I suspect you're going to have to stand strong.

Speaking of Mercury, his Mercury is exactly square your Chiron. I'm supposing that I don't have to tell you that your Mars is opposite his.

It's definitely not straight forward is it? You're both really complicated people. It may also be what brings respect from each other.

It's really weird because on one hand your planets (Sun and Mars) sort of sit in his male domain. If we're going with the idea that he's compartmentalised. So, will he be irritated that you don't know your place? I mean, not THAT harsh but I don't know how to say it. Will he feel competition.. will it challenge his authority over the domain of that part of his chart (I mean his kite)?

But then, the Moons.. so well supported. And your Pluto and Saturn (strong, strong forces) holding his Venus and Mars in check. And also, that it is THAT way around. I think it would be a tipping point if it was Pluto and Mars.. even at a trine, because the rest of the chart is so rich and active.

That Neptune though.. and fairly tight t-square with both of your Marses. And his own Neptune is conjunct his SN, so, his NN is pulling him to Taurus and to be more real. So.. he may "click" into that mode fast, if he feels too much Neptune. Pluto is strong with Neptune in your natal so again, supportive with his Venus - which your Neptune otherwise opposes.

posted December 03, 2018 07:16 AM            

I see this as fated, destiny. I am soft enough to help him integrate this facet of his life, to heal his trauma and pained perspective of women, but I also have to be strong enough in my masculine yang side to do it.

And the same goes for him. I need Mercury to be pushed. In the inconjunct between Moon and Mercury, my Moon often wins. My emotions are kept under tight wraps, and Mercury is relegated to Leo finesse and smooth talking around them. When my Mercury does show itself, it is in fits and starts and erratic and people are surprised when it comes out. Not good, not healthy. I need balance and to be able to find a way to express my emotions and thoughts in a way that can be heard properly and still releases my true self.

I am not saying these Chiron squares won't hurt or cause trouble, but my thoughts are that this is what it takes to push each of us to where we need to go. And with my Chiron supporting (widely) his Sun,but moreso my Saturn to his Mars and Pluto to his Venus; and his Chiron supporting strongly my Sun and ASC, I think maybe these are the backbones that allow us to survive the Chiron squares?

posted December 03, 2018 07:29 PM            

Also, to anwer, I don't think that POF would count because as a "point" in the chart it doesn't give off energy. So.. it doesn't make an exchange of energy in the configuration. But, having said that, I've forgotten what this point is all about so it may still have some significance.

posted December 04, 2018 09:11 AM            

I actually have been reading and thinking about the kite and came across this. The grand trine that forms part of the kite is the closed loop you mentioned, but the point at the top that opposes the bottom of the trine is the way out...
http://seattleastrology.org/the-unique-and-special-nature-of-the-astrology-kite-pattern/

Seeing as how he has a natal kite, he completes a kite for me through synastry, and we have one in composite, I am really focusing on the meaning of this energy. I think together we have potential to emerge from the closed loop. My Venus and Mars help him personally, by stimulating his Uranus/Pluto point. And in composite we can use Mercury to help provide growth from the Moon trine with Uranus and Saturn.

posted December 04, 2018 04:08 PM            

Here it is (but don't want to go off your topic):

In my estimate, it's still a loop. It just goes around the top bit too. In fact, there is an intense focus of energy primarily at that top bit. It's sort of a bit imprisoning. The energy gets stuck there?

Admittedly, I haven't experienced a kite enough to assign this definitely to it.

Edit: oh, no I have had it in synastry! But at a distance and again, it was intense! But it still will depend on the configuration I think, and the balance of who's got what planets.

In my synastry experience he already had a grand trine (amazing chart and a real insight for me) and my Mars gave a kite.

Here it is:

posted December 04, 2018 04:31 PM            

Also, in that composite, you and the other person had to have had similar charts bcs so many planets are so similar to yours?

The second chart is a great one, you are right! And I bet throwing your Mars in to the mix was intense. It gave all his mental energy some fiery outlet. I bet you stirred him up. But you were not close enough to have experienced a relationship with this person? Such a shame!

posted December 04, 2018 05:11 PM            

The first composite there, we also had Moon conjunct Pluto. I've written about it elsewhere and it was horrible.

As far as real life, I got sick at a time when should've been the pinnacle of human development. In societies eyes anyhow. I became of no use and he left for someone at his office. That was more important to him than anything we had "spiritually" or "emotionally". As often it is for men, frankly. Especially with heavy Capricorn, and Jupiter in his natal first house..

But, yes, I still say there was a terrible concentration of Neptune lost-ness in that situation. And I suppose I was playing out the Neptune? I think too it did fall on my Natal Neptune and my Jupiter. The Mars was on my Mars too. BUT, was also on his Mars and pretty much Neptune too (our Mars and Venus were conjunct, lol. Same ascendant too). I was building my photography business at the time. It was a very dreamy time, and needed to access my imagination for the majority of my time.

The second one, yes, one may think a "great" chart. However, this was a fairly high strung and neurotic someone. Very flighty and edgy. Low skilled and a bit of an everyone's little darling (air-dominant). As you can see there is no water or earth. He did also suffer some mental issues that he alluded to. Like he had experienced a serious mental breakdown at some stage. Perhaps a bipolar issue? Guess there's not much resource in that chart for transits and progressions?

Someone like that also must interact with their environment and there are many opportunities for many people to be trapped in that grand trine and for those people to feel a unique "connection". And ensue chase. However, for him it happens often and he was flighty and wary of attachments. I guess women would be keen to pin him down and he was somewhat avoidant attachment style consequently. Also, being spoiled for choice he was pretty passive and not a very deep person.

What they say about trines, right? Don't have to think too deeply or read a book to get by? And, as he was the little darling (all that air), he had many supports so, again, didn't need to go too deeply inward to learn or grow much.

Here's the pertinent point for the interaction though: for my Mars in that configuration was truly highlighted. Again, a sense of trapped in that energy. I could barely access my other planets, as suddenly I was assigned exclusively the Mars energy. Just from interacting with that guy. I didn't like it. Even though my Mars is well aspected it was still unpleasant because it felt too one-dimensional and the rest of me fell into the the background.

I felt very aggressive inside too. I am normally ok with Mars for sure. I keep active and was doing karate for a few years.. it's well tempered by my Mercury and Moon; my Mars is very civilised. But, and I attribute it to a sense of intense "concentration" to that area, it was a more pure Mars energy then I could ever have imagined - extremely raw, basic, intense and a "sharply" and narrowly pointed sensation. See that my Moon and Mercury too was in his grande trine. And also his Moon completed a grand air trine in may chart. Who knows - maybe I got lost in his grand trine too?

How interesting. The depth that is underway when simply being in another person's aura!!

posted December 04, 2018 05:21 PM            

I will say this- my ex-husband has a fairly "easy chart" with trines and not much red, mostly blue lines. He is lazy, manipulative, and I suspect, a pathological liar. I was so deceived by him throughout our marriage but once I left so many people came forward to tell stories of his shady character. Now he had a lot of water, but still had trines.

With Sun Mercury trine Moon and Mars... I don't know. I would see that he was able to use his Mars (action) to support who he was and how he felt, that it was all well integrated. So the only main affliction is chiron. And with Chiron being in the 5th, in Aries, he really struggled to identify who he was and find joy in that. He felt he could not "create" his own self, his own life?

posted December 04, 2018 05:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StoneMoon:
Wow, that's really interesting. I don't know what I would expect to see for mental illness, bipolar, breakdowns... but maybe that Chiron opposition to his Sun and Mercury?

I will say this- my ex-husband has a fairly "easy chart" with trines and not much red, mostly blue lines. He is lazy, manipulative, and I suspect, a pathological liar. I was so deceived by him throughout our marriage but once I left so many people came forward to tell stories of his shady character. Now he had a lot of water, but still had trines.

With Sun Mercury trine Moon and Mars... I don't know. I would see that he was able to use his Mars (action) to support who he was and how he felt, that it was all well integrated. So the only main affliction is chiron. And with Chiron being in the 5th, in Aries, he really struggled to identify who he was and find joy in that. He felt he could not "create" his own self, his own life?

---

I agree with what you say about Chiron. And it stands out like anything, so, yes, the first thing I looked at was the Chiron. I suppose you can say that, the Chiron is the way out of the loop of that grand trine. Just as you made that point above..

Edit: and also, I agree with you in principle about your point of a well integrated grand trine (Sun Mercury trine Moon and Mars). However, the point is about those trines is that they are unconscious. And they fall into a silent background where it kind of cannot be seen or felt. So, again, if the tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it actually exist? If you're so "content" and there is nothing to rub up against in your psyche, do you know that you actually exist?

Not in dispute with you at all, just pulling apart the different ideas and points for fun here.

Yes, he became an isolated person, who obsessed about music. So, while it was out of the grand trine, it was still a loop. Just with an obsessive and urgent focus on the top point of the kite as an anxious escape route from the grand trine. It's a place to rest from the looping (edit: and I am supposing too, unconscious existence within it).

It was a place where he could define his identity as a creative musician, that stood apart from the crowd (individuation - which I'd say was the Aries as no TOB). And could reject the rest (all relationships - ie, the air grand trine that kept devouring him), and enjoy doing so (as is the case with avoidant attachment styles), because it only affirmed his breaking out to individuation from other people (the grand trine in air and also, away from the Libra element or union with others). It was a way of saying "I am this, over here" consciously. If that makes sense.

They do say that trines are unconscious. Yet, still, it was a trap because he only developed depression locked in this model for himself. But I guess he was more conscious of it!

And, this configurations DID take precedence in his life. The rest in the chart was kind of secondary.. But I suppose they were the supportive elements. The impetus to drive out of the grand trine. So, maybe with your guy, it is the conflict with women that helps him come to greater awareness and consciousness in himself. But, his point is that Pluto etc.. So, this regenerative vibe (like I've already explored in earlier post).

I am supposing with a water trine, manipulating matter/the environment (which includes people), and thus having an impact on the environment and thereby demonstrating your existence, is the primary way water can operate. So, there are no surprised for me in what you are saying. Now I think of it. How interesting!

posted December 04, 2018 11:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StoneMoon:
Maybe that’s why they came in to our lives? Seeing elements we have and how they can be used well or used poorly? I strongly believe my exhusband was a karmic life lesson. Hell, he still is. But you drew air which you have and me water... to teach us more about ourselves.

---

No no.. it's just cognitive dissonance: we have to take something away from it when we are hit by horrible people. We have to "learn" something when we come out of those interactions.. otherwise the trauma would be too much. And anyhow.. there's people coming in and out of our lives all the time so we're always learning something from all, good or bad?

My ex destroyed me. I developed an aversion to any talk of karma, or lessons.. or that it takes two to tango or anything else. The only lesson I learned was there are some incredibly self serving manipulative and cruel people in the world that, before him (and T-Pluto on my ascendant), I never knew existed.

I forgot: also, that guy with the air grand trine was really really into big muscle-building women. He wasn't that masculine himself with all that air either.

Edit 06/12/2018: At the time it occurred strongly to me the power Chiron has in a chart because in his chart it was nicely isolated. As, despite his Moon and Venus, he was drawn very strongly and exclusively to women that were classic archetypal Aries.

It was very clear that soothing his Chiratic wound trumped the classic love indicators in the chart.

IMO then it is likely Chiron, and soothing the wound, is just as much related to love as any other planet.

Maybe even more in this day and age of attachment disorders and relationships disconnects?

I read this today which is a nice synopsis:
Source: https://sasstrology.com/2008/09/chiron-in-houses-and-in-aspect-to-venus.html
"Astrologically, it is clear that Venus alone does not tell us the whole story in the rarefied realms of human love. Mars adds spice and passion, but he too does not complete the picture. The Moon is helpful — she speaks to those deeply habituated needs we have learned — but even under her pale influence we do not yet have the complete formula for this most elusive of elixirs.

True love cannot be made without Chiron.

Chiron is a centaur, a wild and wise being who in our astrology highlights our most untamed weakness and our most supportive potential. It is where we are most vulnerable and most in need of sustenance; so inevitably, if we find some other person who in some way soothes that vulnerability or wound, then they are going to become an intimate acquaintance in some sense, and what could be more intimate than the bond of mutual respect and support that is formed between lovers? By understanding Chiron in our astrology, we can very quickly begin to grasp some of the very fundamental support requirements that are thrown up as a result, and the type of person who might be able to address them.

Whilst an examination of every placement of Chiron would be exhaustive (and exhausting), it is always insightful to look at the placement of Chiron by house in order to understand something about the area of life in which you require the most support from your partner."

posted December 05, 2018 09:23 AM            

Interesting about Pluto on your ASC when you met your ex. I went back and looked and Pluto was in my first house, but just out of range of my ASC when I met my ex. And it was nearing a square to my Venus. transit NN on my Saturn, while transit Saturn squared my Sun, though separating. Uh, yeah. I would say that's all accurate.

posted December 05, 2018 07:21 PM            

Know that I certainly wasn't directing at you, just making a point generally about the circumstances. And that, perhaps, it's not just astrology! In this case we had fairly good synastry and a pretty happy life. He just wanted to "trade up" when I was ill for his own self-serving gain. My story is not an uncommon one unfortunately.

Maybe if he had water in his chart he would've acted with more compassion. Or maybe if his NN wasn't on my Ascendant.. or any other of a miriade of things going on. You never know when certain aspects will rear their faces in synastry. Why it's interesting and fun to speculate

Yeah - things really hit the fan for me with Pluto! Before that I was kind of dubious about transits.

posted December 06, 2018 04:11 AM            

I will post the charts without asteroids, but I did keep Chiron, Juno, Valentine, and Psyche and Eros, because I consider them very important. I cut out all the other noise though. Not sure where to grab the grid from.

Here is my chart without asteroids:

And his:

And composite:

posted December 06, 2018 05:20 AM            

And yes, spot on.. to what I was trying to get to but you just articulated what I couldn't.

Ok so grab the grid from Additional Tables on the synastry chart page. Like where I got the parallels from but on the synastry. Also post the synastry chart please

posted December 06, 2018 04:33 PM            

I think my hope here in my situation is our age and maturity. I know my personal level of spiritual maturity, and I believe in the philosophy that you attract what you put out in to the world.

posted December 06, 2018 05:24 PM            

I made a mistake: I was first looking at the wrong chart. I was looking at the composite and his, and not yours! And was like - WOW, your Sun/Jup only has squares, and is only one degree square of your Chiron...AND is exactly conjunct his Sun. And we've been talking a bit about Chiron..

And I was thinking that: I really cannot get over how rich this interaction is.

But, StoneMoon, while it was the wrong chart, this is still in the composite. And is surely still a significant statement: the composite Sun NN and Jupiter all squared Chiron. And that Comp core identity is exactly conjunct each of your Suns. [Composite: Ven26 NN26 Sun21 Jup16; Him: Sun15 Jup13; You: Sun26 Eros23 Jup19]. And, Square Uranus..

Like I say, how rich this interaction is..

Note for later: I am always a bit wary about asteroids keeping people in places (relationships) which are draining or unhealthy.

His Mercury is square your own Chiron. And his Chiron is on your SN. All these Chiron themes are so tight.. But then, and maybe already mentioned - your Sun/Moon is supportive to his Chiron. And maybe his other planets are supporting to yours, but, they are very wide compared to his Mercury. Luckily, it is not his Mercury that is overly squared like his Mars. It is nicely connected to that Venus, yes. But that Venus is square to yours.

And I guess, for you, with that Chiron opposition to Uranus you have, there are high odds of you inheriting also the Pluto opposite too in composite charts! From my generation (sorry ). So.. this is interesting. And thinking more about your original question around just this in the other thread. This IS an important point that I hadn't considered StoneMoon. Because it's a lot of force adding Pluto to the mix. It's not only fully aggravating that Chiron/Uranus opposition in your psyche that is already integrated, that you've already come to terms with and to a degree put to bed, it also brings the new force of ugly Pluto. That's full-on actually.

See his NN? I see how it juts out into Taurus from that kite and also from the square to Venus. I think this is emphasising the theme of his growth coming from conflict with women. Or any conflict for that matter of course, I'm just sticking with the astrological themes and keywords. Because it so much more of course - I mean, we haven't even touched on how that Mars is a reflection of his own masculinity and how he may over compensate through the Pluto of that kite. His NN jutting out there is supportive to your Sun/Moon.

We have discussed in the previous posts and pretty much concluded there are some issues there with his Mars. And that, given his age and also the strength of other configurations in his chart, he has likely developed new management strategies around this Mars. Also, that it is a square, he may well have become quite excellent at conflict management. But, then too, given the intensity of those squares, his "management" may be to simply control the women in his life as much as possible, lol.

Anyhow, I can imagine that after any disputing he has a routine method of switching into a new mode. A disengaging from the dispute. I don't think he's one to hang around it too much. He says and does what he needs to say/do and moves on to another gear. My question is: will he leave you behind then and hanging? No, I think that you will be able to move on with him easily too. Your rhythms are in tune over all I think, despite any differences. And those differences are enough to learn from each other, and you are both big enough people to allow that learning to happen.

There's so much here! It's a very rich interaction. I wish I could come and meet you both and observe.

Edit after reading your post above: that IS the sh*t thing about Chiron: it falls in love with potential. For women it's baaad.. because the maternal and nurturing instincts kick in. The wanting to steer and take care of the relationship because if only that person could see how good it is. Or, how great they are or the potential. But it's actually useless. The more you try, the more contempt. She describes it well in that article.

After reading that article yesterday, I remembered how some decades ago (I think maybe too then was when I originally delved deeply into Chiron), I vowed to *mental note* have only fun relationships. Relationships that are just doing fun things together. To never get sucked in again to that awful stuff.

posted December 06, 2018 06:31 PM            

I agree, for Chiron and the hope and the potential... You have Chiron square Venus, I have trine. I wonder if this is why we experience this hope and love of potential?

And I wish you could come and observe, too. How fun would that be?

Have you noticed your chart and mine? Your Pluto on my NN, your Moon/Uranus conjunct my Pluto, your Mars conjunct my Neptune, my Mars trine your ASC, and my Moon in your first? (I love moon in my first!) Your Sun in my 3rd house, and you are definitely teaching me and encouraging learning and growth. Your neptune on my ASC, Venus trine Venus, and my Mercury on your SN.

I read once that sometimes the Mercury person was a teacher in the past life, and in this life the node person returns again to repay the favor. So, if that's the case, thank you. You are definitely teaching me here! Your Saturn trines my Mars.

posted December 08, 2018 04:44 PM            

His Moon is close like mine, just, it's opposite the Uranus and Pluto.

We don't know the houses but I am wondering something like that in his childhood he witnessed male dominance and control with his mother. That consequently restricted her in some way and made him take care of her and grow up too fast. He was stuck in the middle of a violent and abusive marriage for which he felt he had to take responsibility for. Conflict with his siblings may too have played a role growing up.

This took a toll on his own development, and frustrated his development into puberty as a man, and in the forming of relationships with opposite sex in his younger years.

Or it could've been related more to his past relationship if is in the 7H. I am going with his own childhood because it's the Moon though. And anyhow it can be both.

Over time, he has learned to embody that same powerful force that he witnessed and felt powerless against. He struggles to use it constructively in his own life without also becoming the monster. He has striven to rise to his own dominance, and where he will attain stability and a sense of power for himself, and importantly, where he will not feel that vulnerability ever again.

He has learned to manage the resentment he carried as a child (to both parents that restricted him), and he has grow out of the anger and away from the past to only a degree, because it has become a part of him and made him who he is. He still learns to incorporate his past pain as experience that he can use to support others. Especially in the area of conflict management.

posted December 08, 2018 09:21 PM            

I would argue that, most people (men) blame the mother especially at a young age because they are in the natural process of making that separation from the mother, and they have a developmental need to identify with the father as a role model into manhood. Especially given the aspects he has to his Moon there..

For example and only incidentally, sometimes, no matter how monstrous the father's are, in a semi-abusive or even abusive situation, they are still admired because of the strength demonstrated, and children are too afraid to do anything but to side with the stronger parent as a base survival instinct. Often contempt is held for the "weaker", more preoccupied with the children's needs, or even more sickly parent, which can often be the mother.

posted December 09, 2018 03:15 AM            

Here's a fun interp to share:
Source: https://darkstarastrology.com/moon-square-opposite-mars/
"Sex Dynamo
moon-squ-marsMoon square Mars is a highly emotional, combustible and passionate combination. The square brings such intense feelings and moods to crisis point, so these people more than most, need to vent this great energy into some project which fuses the Moon with Mars. This could manifest in a variety of ways; starting at the most base level would be sexual conquesting.

In a man they would have a great appetite for women, plain and simple. In a woman it would be a need to express themselves sexually, otherwise they may feel like they have permanent premenstrual tension. If the sexual expression is thwarted in any way, then of course the flip side is great anger and rage.

Moon in hard aspect to Mars has a great urge to protect and defend their family, but also a need for their family to get ahead. They will work long hours so their children go to the best schools. Success and competitiveness is encouraged, but they may be a little too ‘Gung-Ho’ and pushy with their kids.

posted December 09, 2018 03:38 PM            

Now my moon mars trine also resonates with this. Except I feel I don't have a good grasp of control of it. I kind of feel at the mercy of this connection. Because when I feel something, I can't not act on it. I lose sense of rationale because I trust my gut feeling, but I can't necessarily articulate or pull apart why I feel this way... perhaps this is the inconjucnt with Mercury?

posted December 12, 2018 04:13 PM            

I have Mars sextile Moon and my Mercury is pretty much trine (wide on the Moon). It's my best aspect, it's my respite, and it carries my whole chart. It's what's got me through. I can identify and articulate my feelings well.

I have worked hard, and I will push and push to see a project through. My ambitions have always been very strong and I am driven. But I won't exert physical energy to the same point unless my mind in engaged (think: karate more than self-directed gym).

My sex drive is responsive to the needs of my partner mostly. I am wary of the mental drain and fog that comes from too much sex (for me).