posted January 30, 2007 04:29 PM         

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You come off as someone that hates this Country for who we are and what we believe in.

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Of course she does not Swerve, if you notice the title of the thread you will notice an AMERICAN and many other more posted that they are sick of this war. Many Americans are tired of the government. Being American doesn't mean you have to agree with the governments war policies either.

Being American doesn't mean you have to agree with bombing every damn country.

I don't know what the hell you believe in but you won't see my supporting this piece of crap government. I rather die a thousand deaths before I go off supporting a war that has already killed thousands of INNOCENT SOLDIERS AND IRAQIS. The worst part is Bush actually wants to send thousands more!!!!!!!!

Are you kidding me? More death and blood? Is that what you support?

Wake the hell up seriously.

But then again I'm not surprised. You, Jwhop, and Pidua are all talk but you would never sign up and actually go fight yourself.

You're not over there so it's easy for you to support the war.

posted January 30, 2007 04:41 PM         

I'm actually quite neutral to it all.

I certainly don't blindly follow the British government, and Blair is really really suffering over here, some of it justified for sure.

I also don't condone the war but wouldn't claim to know the true motivations for it, which are numerous and cloudy I'm sure.

Too many knee-jerk reactions on both sides which is human nature.

Dulce seems to have a chip on her shoulder about certain things that has come up before this thread. My point was referring to that. I guess I just opened myself up to reprisals, but that's fair I suppose.

I applaud independent thought Sweet Stars, such as yours, but have no political nous to argue the finer points at all.

As for being scared over there...noooo...I'd pick up a machine gun and start shooting as soon as my feet touched the tarmac. Wouldn't you?

posted January 30, 2007 04:48 PM         

Telling someone they stink because you have almost zero comprehension skills is about mature as a 5 year old sticking his / her tongue out in response to a quip.

You need psychological help, but I am sure you'll get banned again so we can expect a few months of relief.

How pathetic to be someone that has been banned over 9 times yet keeps coming back. Don't you get the message or are you that obtuse?

posted January 30, 2007 07:50 PM         

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is revolutionary act. (George Orwell)

posted January 30, 2007 08:30 PM         

(Not the politics.
Just the mud slinging.)

Thats all I have to say about that.
Disregard it if you choose.
I probably wont be coming back in this thread.

But, I will say one other thing...

That, no matter how vicious people get (no matter how many times we ourselves make use of vitriolic language in articulating our condemnations of its use by others), it is interesting to see that we all think we are on the side of good. We all try to defend the underdog, even if we cant agree on who that is. And I think that is encouraging.

posted January 30, 2007 09:14 PM         

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He has obsessive aspects towards president Bush. Blind love aspects.

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Those obsessive aspects are a supposed conjunction between a 6 degree Cancer sun and like 20 something degree Leo sun...

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Can we try to keep this stuff in GU, please?

(Not the politics.
Just the mud slinging.)

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LOL i agree, well more like lets keep the mud slinging out of GU as well...but there arent that many ppl slinging mud, just the annoying few.

quote:

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That, no matter how vicious people get (no matter how many times we ourselves make use of vitriolic language in articulating our condemnations of its use by others), it is interesting to see that we all think we are on the side of good.

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posted January 30, 2007 09:44 PM         

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Dulce.. your argument does not hold water and neither does your logic. You come off as someone that hates this Country for who we are and what we believe in. You would rather see Annan and his cronies buy BMW's off the backs of the starving people in one nation or another as long as that means that the US is not in charge.

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No, I don't hate this country.... and no Swerve, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Please do not psychoanalyze me.

I (and a number of other people I know...including some Americans themselves) hate when the U.S. (and other major Western Powers) is put on a higher moral pedestal than the rest of the world. That's just as bad the "believers" vs. "non believers" crap that some people spew. The U.S. government can be just as "savagely" as the rest of the world when its after its own interests. I'm sick and tired of the U.S.,Britian,etc. portraying itself as the epitome of high moral standards that the rest of us need to follow. Some of these Western Powers are the reason that third world countries are third world countries to begin with. (Thanks for draining up our resourses BTW. ) YOU GUYS ARE NOT PERFECT.

And for the last time no, you did not blow any big holes in my argument. The U.S. along with a number of other nations helped supply Saddam.....I just gave the proof you guys wanted. For Christ sakes, I got that from the friggin Washington Post...how can you refute that?

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YET.. when people suffer tragedy who do they come to? America. When they need aid, medicine and money- who do they come to? America.

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Yeah right! If this was true, why aren't you in Sudan helping the Black Africans who are being massacred by the Black Arabs there. I'm suprised too since Sudan has alot of oil to offer you. (But you know what? We don't need you there anyways...we just need the A.U. to be funded and well equipped to handle this situation as this is an African problem.)

posted January 30, 2007 11:51 PM         

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And for the last time no, you did not blow any big holes in my argument. The U.S. along with a number of other nations helped supply Saddam.....I just gave the proof you guys wanted. For Christ sakes, I got that from the friggin Washington Post...how can you refute that?

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Even my cat knows that, DL.

Luckily, we know what really goes on.

posted January 31, 2007 12:12 AM         

Yes DL, the US did permit Saddam to buy from American manufacturers. So what. At the time, none of the stuff sold to Saddam was on any restricted list and it consisted of computers, chemicals, pesticides, electric motors, switches, helicopters and probably a hell of a lot of other stuff Saddam could have gotten anywhere in the western world. Further, Iraq was not on any list of nations being sanctioned for anything. Again, so what?

When the BS gets this deep, it's time to pull the plug in the tub.

Now Slayer, you say the US and other western nations are after Iraq's oil.

So, please tell me exactly how this is supposed to come about.

My information is that Iraq sells it's oil on the open markets, at market prices. Our military doesn't even take fuel from Iraq for their vehicles. That's trucked in from Kuwait.

Further, the very first ministry set up by the Coalition/US/Britain/Australia/Italy et al. was the oil ministry and it was turned over to Iraqi management way before there was a government in Iraq...and I believe, before there was even a "provisional government".

posted January 31, 2007 12:18 AM         

I like what you had to say.
I dont think I was generalizing though,
I just think I was unclear about
what I meant by "good".

I meant to imply a position, but not a side. Sitting on the fence is a position, and the person who takes it does so because they think it is the good or right thing to do, at least, until sufficient facts are in. ((Sufficient being a relative term, and only intended here to suggest that which the person on the fence considers sufficient.))

"A man cannot knowingly commit evil. In order for me to do that which is evil for me, I must simultaneously approve and disapprove of my action. This is absurd."
- Jean-Paul Sartre

"Judgement is the antithesis of understanding."
- Valerian the Fool

posted January 31, 2007 12:36 AM         

I did not say i know nothing though, I said I do not claim to know what good and evil is and i stick by it. I honestly will not say that something is good or bad across the board because I dont believe in such things that have no exceptions.

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Who screams murder out loud?

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Its a metaphor if u see the discussions in GU it will make perfect sense.

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. Sitting on the fence is a position, and the person who takes it does so because they think it is the good or right thing to do, at least, until sufficient facts are in. ((Sufficient being a relative term, and only intended here to suggest that which the person on the fence considers sufficient.))

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THat is quiet true, ill definately agree with you on that.

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A man cannot knowingly commit evil. In order for me to do that which is evil for me, I must simultaneously approve and disapprove of my action. This is absurd."
- Jean-Paul Sartre

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posted January 31, 2007 01:04 AM         

The moral sense is not a mental faculty.
It is a feeling; a deep, empathic knowing.
A warm heart cannot fail to give warmth,
nor a cold heart chills.
"Who knows good, does good."
(That's textbook Plato for you.)

Sociopaths have no more idea of what it means to be good than colorblind people do about what it means to be purple. They can take your word for it that such a thing exists, but they will still fail to recognize it when they see it.

posted January 31, 2007 09:16 AM         

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Well DL, I notice you've changed you tune from....the US armed Saddam..to..the US supplied Saddam. France did arm Saddam.

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Ummm excuse me, supplied him...armed him.... what's the difference? They gave him what he needed to arm himself.

But I'm really p.o'd at that fact that Pid is taking cheap shots at me. WTF? Afraid to post in GU....that's BS....name the time and place lady and bring it on. I've taken on your little friend there and I'm sure I can take you on and blow nearly everything you come at me with.

posted January 31, 2007 12:21 PM         

Just to be clear, it's no secret Iraq has the 2nd largest known oil reserves in the world...that's been known for a very long time...40 to 50 year old information.

So, some statement of obvious fact about Iraq's oil reserves morphs into an intent to steal, siphon off, gain an advantage in buying or otherwise tilt the sale or theft of Iraqi oil to the United States...that is the proximate reason for removing Saddam?

Hello, did you not read what I wrote about the oil ministry of Iraq being run by Iraqis? Did you not read that the oil ministry was the first ministry set up and turned over to Iraqi management? Have you not read or heard what Bush has said repeatedly...even in the face of criticism by democrats that Iraq's oil belongs to Iraq...even when democrats were whining and suggesting Iraq should be paying some of the costs of US involvement in Iraq? Did you not read that even the fuel for US trucks, tanks and other vehicles is trucked in from Kuwait...and paid for by the United States?

Now Slayer, if you can cite an instance where one drop of Iraqi oil has been appropriated, one contract to sell oil to anyone has been manipulated in favor of the US or US oil companies, one Iraqi arm has been twisted to favor the US or US oil companies in the sale of Iraqi oil...then let's see it.

The big chance to blow the lid off the "secret".."hidden" agenda for removing Saddam. What do you have to back up your allegations?

Let me repeat, Iraq's oil is sold on the open oil market...at market prices. Iraq's oil is sold by the Iraqis, the money goes to the Iraqi government, it does not pass through the hands of the United States and neither does the oil itself.

If every drop of Iraqi oil produced was confiscated and sold by the United States, if every dollar of that oil revenue was confiscated by the United States and put in the US treasury for the next 15 years, it wouldn't pay back what has already been spent by the United States in Iraq...and more will be spent there by the United States.

Jane Fonda was and is an American traitor who gave aid and comfort to America's enemy..North Vietnam. A traitor who should have been charged with treason, tried, convicted and executed...as every traitor should be.

DL, you proved nothing about the US arming Saddam...neither did your Washington Post article. Switches, motors, electrical circuits, compressors and the assorted chemicals, fertilizers and other agricultural commodities are not arms.

So DL, this is your chance to state exactly what arms the US sold Saddam..by type and description please. You know, jet fighters, tanks, artillery, mortars, small arms, rockets, missiles...like that DL. Those are arms..DL.

posted January 31, 2007 12:41 PM         

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According to a sworn court affidavit prepared by Teicher in 1995, the United States "actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure Iraq had the military weaponry required." Teicher said in the affidavit that former CIA director William Casey used a Chilean company, Cardoen, to supply Iraq with cluster bombs that could be used to disrupt the Iranian human wave attacks. Teicher refuses to discuss the affidavit.

At the same time the Reagan administration was facilitating the supply of weapons and military components to Baghdad, it was attempting to cut off supplies to Iran under "Operation Staunch." Those efforts were largely successful, despite the glaring anomaly of the 1986 Iran-contra scandal when the White House publicly admitted trading arms for hostages, in violation of the policy that the United States was trying to impose on the rest of the world.

Although U.S. arms manufacturers were not as deeply involved as German or British companies in selling weaponry to Iraq, the Reagan administration effectively turned a blind eye to the export of "dual use" items such as chemical precursors and steel tubes that can have military and civilian applications. According to several former officials, the State and Commerce departments promoted trade in such items as a way to boost U.S. exports and acquire political leverage over Hussein.

When United Nations weapons inspectors were allowed into Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, they compiled long lists of chemicals, missile components, and computers from American suppliers, including such household names as Union Carbide and Honeywell, which were being used for military purposes.

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and this....

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Chemicals Kill Kurds

In late 1987, the Iraqi air force began using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq that had formed a loose alliance with Iran, according to State Department reports. The attacks, which were part of a "scorched earth" strategy to eliminate rebel-controlled villages, provoked outrage on Capitol Hill and renewed demands for sanctions against Iraq. The State Department and White House were also outraged -- but not to the point of doing anything that might seriously damage relations with Baghdad.

"The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is . . . important to our long-term political and economic objectives," Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy wrote in a September 1988 memorandum that addressed the chemical weapons question. "We believe that economic sanctions will be useless or counterproductive to influence the Iraqis."

Bush administration spokesmen have cited Hussein's use of chemical weapons "against his own people" -- and particularly the March 1988 attack on the Kurdish village of Halabjah -- to bolster their argument that his regime presents a "grave and gathering danger" to the United States.

The Iraqis continued to use chemical weapons against the Iranians until the end of the Iran-Iraq war. A U.S. air force intelligence officer, Rick Francona, reported finding widespread use of Iraqi nerve gas when he toured the Al Faw peninsula in southern Iraq in the summer of 1988, after its recapture by the Iraqi army. The battlefield was littered with atropine injectors used by panicky Iranian troops as an antidote against Iraqi nerve gas attacks.

Far from declining, the supply of U.S. military intelligence to Iraq actually expanded in 1988, according to a 1999 book by Francona, "Ally to Adversary: an Eyewitness Account of Iraq's Fall from Grace." Informed sources said much of the battlefield intelligence was channeled to the Iraqis by the CIA office in Baghdad.

Although U.S. export controls to Iraq were tightened up in the late 1980s, there were still many loopholes. In December 1988, Dow Chemical sold $1.5 million of pesticides to Iraq, despite U.S. government concerns that they could be used as chemical warfare agents. An Export-Import Bank official reported in a memorandum that he could find "no reason" to stop the sale, despite evidence that the pesticides were "highly toxic" to humans and would cause death "from asphyxiation."

The U.S. policy of cultivating Hussein as a moderate and reasonable Arab leader continued right up until he invaded Kuwait in August 1990, documents show. When the then-U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, April Glaspie, met with Hussein on July 25, 1990, a week before the Iraqi attack on Kuwait, she assured him that Bush "wanted better and deeper relations," according to an Iraqi transcript of the conversation. "President Bush is an intelligent man," the ambassador told Hussein, referring to the father of the current president. "He is not going to declare an economic war against Iraq."

"Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam," said Joe Wilson, Glaspie's former deputy at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, and the last U.S. official to meet with Hussein. "Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behavior. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation."

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The same sh#t that was sold to them by your gov't was used on the Kurds....get it now?