posted April 05, 2006 09:23 AM         

"As long as noone is hurt in the process"

"The best relationship usually starts out as friends and if it evolves into something else... whether it be just sex or love, as long as noone is getting hurt and noone is forcing another to be; all is good."

"What is not cool though is if one person more than the other is secretly hoping that the relationship would take a turn for the "better" and would get disappointed."

Exactly!

posted April 05, 2006 11:05 AM         

With that being said, I think the heart of a great debate or discussion is that of tolerance and accepting that while, you may try, not everyone is going to agree with your opinion, the code you follow, or the life that you lead. But...and this is definately a big but...what's the big deal with that? Certain people completely disagree with my arrangement, this I am quite aware of, and exists within my own life quite visibly. It is something that I do not take to heart for lots of reasons: Not everyone who judges me knows me; no one knows my true heart's desire for happiness and self-worth than those I share it with; and basically no one else lives my life or decides my path but me. Anyone who truly understands love knows that it is not just in the romantic form. And with love comes so many other beautiful qualities that are shared: compassion, acceptance, tolerance, and understanding.

Maybe I am missing the point here, being that some people may see FWB as sort of a degrading, demoralizing situation that involves two people with hungry, insatiable sexual appetites looking for a cheap thrill. I am sure those types of situations do exist and people undoubtedly do get hurt. But there are those of us who enjoy the benefits of of this union without being hurt, as well. Same can be said for marriages, live-in relationships, and other sorts of situations...not just the one at hand.

So my suggestion is to agree to disagree, accept that each of us has our own opinion, and feel free to voice it, as this forum is a great place filled with many diverse and wonderful people. Remember that diversity is the spice of life...and each person may carry a voice, a story, or an experience that can alter that view. All you really have to do is listen, not with your head, but your heart..only then can you ultimately grasp its message.

posted April 05, 2006 11:53 AM         

fayte.m

Great insight, thanks for sharing. Love it!

Scorp Web

Yeah, I'm serious! I would love to do an astrological study of Prostituation and Prostitutes. The aim would be to see if there are any similarities between placements within their charts. The brief would include their past relationships and how they affected the subjects psychology and attitudes towards the opposite sex. And to investigate if this had any baring on their decision to become a prostitute. Their social, economic and religious background would also be a part of the study. This would lead on to a study which would include people who are 'religious' minded, in the traditional sense, to see if they have similar placements and observe how they have handled them differently.

Since Sue g, and others, with Venus in Scorpio, clearly do not go in for FWB, as is described above, then it is quite clear that 'emotional degredation' is not necessarily part of this aspect. Or, an alternative explanation could be, that they have taken the high road, the 'Eagle's Flight' and avoid the lower levels of what this sign placement could represent.

Furthermore, sometimes people put comments up on this site to find out more about astrology and are interested in responses to a question or attitude.

It's not intended to offend. Try to be more objective. When talking about sign placements or aspects it's not a reference to anyone in particular, only the placement itself. Don't take it personally!!

Lialei

Again, it's not a reference to anyone in particular.

Mirandee

Great stuff. I agree!

posted April 05, 2006 12:03 PM         

Heart Shaped Cross, I don't think that the word "pathetic" used by Lialei was too harsh when you consider the definition of the word. Pathetic means "evoking tenderness,pity or sorrow." That Lailei chose that particular word shows me that she is a very compassionate woman. Actually by choosing that word she is saying she feels sorry for people who feel the need to put other people down using astrology as a weapon.

Also, in all fairness to Gemstar, she was just expressing how she feels about FWB and saying it wasn't her cup of tea. I did not get any tones of arrogance or superiority to others in what she said at all. What I got from her post was the feeling that she was speaking from experience and found the kind of love relationship that was best for her and wished others could do that as well. Actually she is very right about that. When two people truly love each other, respect each other's individuality, accept each other for who and what they are as persons, love making is far, far better than just sex for the sake of sex.

I wholeheartedly agree that we shouldn't judge the relationships of others and both Lialei and Fayte made some very good points as to why we shouldn't judge. I would say that loneliness is right up there on top of the list of reasons. Grief is another biggie. The major reason why we shouldn't judge ( in the true sense of the word which is "condemn" ) is because we cannot see into another person's soul so we do not know their intentions or what is motivating their actions. We could not survive if we didn't in some degree judge the character of others by their actions. Which is what I feel that Fayte was speaking about when she said it does not help others to grow as people if we just ignore the things they do to others and do not point it out to them. It is a caring, compassionate thing to do when your intention is to help the other person see how their actions effect others. She is right also in that we are only condoning the actions by saying nothing and that not only does not help the person, it infringes on our own rights and shows that we have little self-respect to put up with the bad behavior of others. Frankly the world is getting to be a mess because so many people just look the other way and ignore things when they should be speaking out. We can be very loving, compassionate and caring persons and still not put up with the bad behavior of others. In fact self-respect should dictate to us that we don't put up with it.

Okay back to the subject. Thanks for answering the questions and clarifying your position, Scorp Web. I fully agree with what was said here about not hurting others. Whatever gets you through the night is not alright if someone gets hurt in the process. From what you said about the Sag, I think in your situation someone is going to get hurt and I have a strong feeling it going to be the Sag. The reason that I say that is because you are only assuming that she does not want to know. Knowing Sags as I do ( my daughter is a Sag ) it isn't that she doesn't want to know. Sags are just very innocent, trusting people. It probably has never entered her mind that you are sleeping with another woman. I sometimes have a hard time understanding how my daughter can be so trusting of others when she has been hurt so many times because of that trust. Yet she still goes on trusting and believing the best of others. I may not understand why or how she can do that but I sure admire her for it. It is a beautiful thing.

Rather you think your Sag wants to know or not, Scorp, do the right thing and tell her anyway. It's the honest thing to do. She may be hurt but being a Sag ( who are extraordinarily honest folks themselves ) she will admire you for your honesty.

I do not believe when it comes to love matters that triangles work out. I am not a believer in polygamy. Face it, it goes against human nature. Show me one man or woman who doesn't have the normal human feelings of jealousy, competiveness and possessiveness in love matters and I will personally recommend that person for canonization. Love is meant for two. It's okay to not want to settle down with one partner for life at some point in your life, but I think it's best to have one sex partner at a time. Sex is not just an act. Nor is it something that human beings cannot live without. What it is is the most intimate expression of love. It is designed to demonstrate the unity of two people. We are not driven by cycles of nature to mate without love and feeling as lower animal forms are. I know that you said you love and care for both of the women in your life, Scorp, and it is possible to love two people at the same time. It isn't possible to love two people the same way at the same time though.

I realize that I am coming from a different generation than the young people today so that does have an effect of my views regarding sex and love matters. However, it was my generation of the 60's that began the women's liberation movement and it was my generation that questioned and disregarded the puritantical sexual mores of the past. We did not believe that sex was a bad thing. The generation of the 70's took that "free sex" to the extreme and the legacy that the generation of the 80's, 90's and into this generation got from that was STD's and AIDS. Today sex with multiple partners can be a decision that can cost you your life. To me it just isn't worth that when a true love relationship goes so far beyond sex that it isn't funny.

I am approaching another decade year this month. When you get to be the age of myself and my husband certain medical conditions can take away your ability to perform sexually. Believe it or not there are certain medical conditions that Viagra cannot help. If sex is the basis for all of your relationships and you don't have much, much more to share between the two of you, what are going to fall back on if a medical condition or an accident takes away your ability to perform the sexual act? You better have something to fall back on in a relationship. This may sound preachy but it isn't intended that way. It is just speaking from experience and fact. Love can thrive and grow and be very, very rewarding without sex as a factor at all. Albeit sex is great and wonderful and I have always enjoyed it as a expression of the love between my husband and myself. But even without it I would love him as much and there are far, far more ways of expressing our love than the sexual act itself.

This is me. I am not saying that what works for me or the way I feel about things is the only way or right for everyone else too. It is just how I feel about it and what my moral values and self-respect dictate to me. I don't tell others how they should live their life. Live and let live is how I feel. But, Scorp, I do wish you would be honest and open with your Sag regardless of what you think she feels. It's only fair because right now as the situation is without her knowing I would have to question as whether or not she is actually a "willing partner" in this arrangement. How can she be willing and in agreement without having full knowledge of the situation?

Thanks for putting up with my rantings.

P.S. Gemstar, Is there some way that I can give you our birth info in private? I am delighted that you asked and have no problem with giving the info but would just prefer to do it in private rather than on the threads.

posted April 05, 2006 12:18 PM         

I think that most prostitutes come from a sexually abusive background that also lacked parental love and acceptance. I don't think the astro sign has anything to do with it. It's more a psychological, traumatic issue.

Women who were not accepted or felt they were loved by their dads are forever doomed to seek male acceptance in any form they can unless they work out the issue in therapy. It's kind of a trap because it is transferance. The real love they seek is from their dad so they can never be appeased even if a man other than their dad accepts and loves them. Male prostitutes I think are working out mother issues.

posted April 05, 2006 01:30 PM         

Thank you again!!

posted April 05, 2006 02:04 PM         

>>>I also agree so very much with the things you said...
Quote:
"When you get to be the age of myself and my husband certain medical conditions can take away your ability to perform sexually."
Quote:
"Love can thrive and grow and be very, very rewarding without sex as a factor at all. Albeit sex is great and wonderful and I have always enjoyed it as a expression of the love between my husband and myself. But even without it I would love him as much and there are far, far more ways of expressing our love than the sexual act itself."

>>>Oh how I do agree! Paralysis episodes/MS like disease, and osteoarthritis also make it impossible, too often.
But what my husband and I share...with or without sexual union, is far far far beyond anything I experienced during those "free love" times of the 1960s and 1970s!
>>>I wish to refer to a thread where love forms/types were being discussed, and I felt nonsexual love was being deemed and demeaned as not of as high a love or a higher love and passion as sexual. Or love with sexual.
But love does not "need" sex to elevate our souls to heights of love, with etheral beauty and pure soul union. LOVE IS http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/006274.html http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/006274-2.html http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/006274-3.html
Being disabled and 51....I know what you mean.
Thanks Mirandee!

posted April 05, 2006 02:31 PM         

I'm so grateful for your wise and calm insights and the expression of your values and (especially!) your Live and Let Live attitudes.

Welcome back to LL!

posted April 05, 2006 02:34 PM         

I've had my share of one night stands that were pretty meaningless in the emotional dept. and also a few FWB. The two are quite different.
I can speak to the emotional value of FWB. When my son's father died, I found comfort in the arms of a friend and it was invaluable in helping me get through that difficult time. He was a very close friend and we shared a deep love between us. We only shared one night together intimately and it was something I really needed at the time.

I think that different people need different things when it comes to intimate relationships and to pass judgement on what works for one person and maybe not for another is inappropriate. It's fine to say, "I need this and could never do that..", but we are all different and to pass a blanket judgement across the board on the idea of FWB as being a 'less evolved' relationship is unfair and untrue.

posted April 05, 2006 04:03 PM         

But yeah, I guess I should tell my Sag. I can tell she suspects me of it, but she told me she prefers not knowing about other women. I would imagine that means sex, too.

posted April 05, 2006 07:43 PM         

I have one friend with whom I have had a friendship like that on and off for over a decade. When we are with someone (ie; in a relationship), we are purely friends, but if we both find ourselves single at the same time...

This worked well for me when I was younger. I am someone who enjoys sex very much and often, but when you're single, there are few alternatives that don't leave you with the stigma of "s lut". This was a really convenient way to have a sexual outlet with no strings attached.

Usually if we spent too much time together one or both of us would start to have feelings, so we would just give it a 2-3 week break and everything would be fine.

We didn't date because while we really liked each other and really enjoyed sex with each other, we had different goals and felt in the long term we weren't compatible.

posted April 05, 2006 11:53 PM         

Hi. I totally agree with you.
But nobody was called pathetic.
Only the behavior was refered to as pathetic.
It is itself hurtful and arrogant.
As I tried to suggest in my post,
when making any unflattering observation of a person,
it is only fair to make an effort to understand,
and sympathize with their deeper motives (fears; insecurities; misguided, but noble ambitions).
I know no one intended to be hurtful.
We are all speaking out as guardians,
and we sometimes resemble the things which we are fighting.
Righteous indignation easily turns self-righteous.
We must be temperate, but emphatic, in all matters of this importance and delicacy.
But we are all human.
Anyway, I'm only agreeing with you, lol,
not presuming to tell you anything you dont already know.

As for the hypocrite thing,
I do agree with fayte's explaination of her position;
that it is merely to call a spade a spade,
and not to keep silence where light must be shed.
It is, to be sure, a slippery slope,
and we can expect to find ourselves judging people for judging,
and becoming intolerant of the intolerant.
We do have a right to try to reform our fellows,
if we believe they need reforming,
but we must allow them the space and dignity of an equal.
Unfortunately, conflict is necessary.
We must, at times, like Hamlet,
"be cruel only to be kind;
Thus bad begins, and worse remains behind."
To help our fellows, and not to ostracize or alienate them,
while yet bringing them to a stark awareness of their own indiscretions,
is an art at which we are all novices.
Everyone wants to believe they are without sin.
It is becoming politically incorrect to correct one another.
We are so sensitive. Our EGOS are so sensitive.
But, still, it is necessary to speak the truth.
Though virtue is, by nature, idealistic, and a spur,
a stinging challenge to all that is imperfect,
virtue must have a voice;
and vice must be reasoned to nought.
"What good is a philosopher who offends no one?" (-Diogenes)
It is necessary to speak disagreeable truths,
and, for the hard of hearing, it IS necessary to shout.

fayte,

Thanks.

Gemstar,

Well said.
I'm sorry I mistook your tone.
And I agree with you; to disagree.

"When a man contradicts me, he arouses my attention, not my anger.
It is enough for me that a man directs his response
to the substance of my inquiry.
Agreement is utterly boring."
- Montaigne

posted April 05, 2006 11:56 PM         

Hi.
I agreed that the word was not too harsh,
with the provision that one ought to give equal expression
to the other person's side of the story;
their reason and justification for being as they presently are.

I think there is a fairly clear discrepancy
between the denotation and connotation of the word "pathetic".
I do not think Lia meant to imply her "tenderness, pity, or sorrow,"
for the recipient of that adjective.
Nor do I think she meant to imply disgust
(although, I think it is practical to say
that disgust is what "pathetic" is most often used to express,
in common speech).
I believe she meant to convey righteous indignation.
I think she was angered, and not softened,
by the condition of the person (or persons) in question.
And it was not my intention to judge her for this anger.
Only to suggest, as you have done, that there is another,
sympathetic, side to the meaning of "pathetic".

Also, I just want to note, that,
I did not presume to be telling her what she did not know,
only to remind her of something which I myself often forget,
and desperately desire others to remind me of.
I realize that may have been unclear,
and I ought to have made it explicit.
I sincerely apologize to Lia, if I gave the wrong impression.
I so much sympathized with her role as defender,
that I wanted to moderate her attack.
I know her intentions are peaceable,
and she only wishes to calm and persuade her adversaries
of the irrationality and injustice of their actions.
And not to escalate the conflict herself.
Like me, she is not content to see the "bad guys" punished;
she wants to see them converted to goodness.
For this is also to affirm the power of goodness.
We must use love to overcome our adversaries,
or we have already lost.

~ hsc

posted April 06, 2006 08:09 AM         

You make a very good point that it is so important to "call a spade a spade." I do agree with that, and respect that, whole-heartedly. There is a quote I really like: "Your silence will not protect you." It's true.

However, sometimes honesty (and I don't mean to direct this just to you in specific, but as something that applies to ALL of us) can be used as an excuse to hurt others when it is not necessary.

It is not just *what* we say, but also *how* we say it.

It is possible to get a point across to someone in a way that is both honest and sensitive. I think it is something worth striving for.

God knows I'm far from perfect at doing this myself. Even looking back at both my posts in this thread, I wish I had stated things a little differently.

I'm fairly young (19) and I admit to being a little idealistic/naive in matters of love and sex. Also, because I'm in college, I see the ugly side of "FWB" all the time. A lot of my female friends have gotten their hearts broken because of these situations.

To be clear, the intention behind my post was this: not wanting to see this thread escalate into nasty accusations and name-calling. It's so easy for that to happen in an internet forum, when we are not face to face with other human beings, but rather staring at computer screens.

Just wanted to clarify my feelings. I wish everyone the best.

posted April 06, 2006 08:31 AM         

Isis
Loved your reply!
On a similar track...
The pleasuring of oneself in lieu of being with another, just for the sexual release.
I have counseled many folks on that aspect of allowing one an outlet of "self control". Especially teenagers, but it can work for anyone of any age when the sexual urges come forth.
Let me explain:
Often one feels or becomes aroused due to being used to having sexual relations, then suddenly not having them with the same frequency. Or have never had them and wanting to. Or are inspired by flirtatious banter or the visual, pheromonal, hormonal. There are are many reasons for sexual arousal and the desire for orgasmic release.
My advice is:
If you are feeling aroused, before you start hunting for, or reaching out for someone to have sex with, TRY this:
Masturbate.
Fantasize while doing so.
The vast majority of the time one will find, at least in the short term, that the urge is like suddenly, magically, gone! Or at least lowered. In fact it can often leave one amazed at the before and after intensity towards the desire or urge for sexual union.
The contrast can be extremely significant! Once one has "taken the matter into hand" so to speak, the body is more calm sexually, and the mind is clearer to think before leaping, than as it was when in the arousal stage/state.
So....
Doing this before a date, or anytime one expects to encounter temptations, or on a daily, or on a physically as needed basis; will keep the uncontrolled or difficult to control urges to a dull roar, or even eliminate them temporarily.
Then if the urge to make love or have sex comes up, one will be able to "conciously choose" rather than letting the primal urges take them for a ride, they may not have taken if they had releaved themselves beforehand.
I have known of folks who even do this during a date or in other stimulating situations, by excusing themselves for a few minutes and taking care of their urge in the bathroom, solo.
After that, clearer heads can prevail.

posted April 06, 2006 09:04 AM         

1.NEVER have sex with someone you have never been with before, while drunk or stoned.
Your self control and judgement will be impaired.
2.If you find yourself being swept off your feet, staring into the eyes of another and wondering what it would be like...go releave yourself IMMEDIATELY!
I have been in both situations, especially in my youth.

The first can leave one with the "Oh My God! What did I do?!" question later. Not what one would call a pleasant positive memory.

The second situation;
Once one has "releaved themself "solo" and upon return to the person they were wondering "how would it be with him/her", often that person suddenly does not look or feel as mesmerizing as they had appeared to be a few minutes before, when the body urges were clouding and flavoring the moment.
Physical urges can and do often overpower the rational mind especially in Romantic situations or while under the influence of drink, drugs, hormonal, pheromonal and so forth.
We are not beasts.
We can choose who to join with in sexual union, for love, fun, or both.
But we do not have to automatically "jump to" every time our sexual regions get that "tingle".
In fact..nowadays, it can be deadly, not merely humiliating or embarrassing later.
Sex no matter how enjoyable or fun is NOT worth taking that kind of risk.
Look..and "think" before you leap.

posted April 06, 2006 10:22 AM         

I didn't mean anything by it... just found it funny. I didn't take it personally. Just fishing for a reason to why... you gave one.

I confess...

I have kept an emotional wall up before. There were really only 2 people that I let it down for. The ones that were sex for sex sake, were superficial.

Not that I've had sexual relations with a lot of people.

I haven't experienced this in a couple of years... and I don't think I really want it again any time soon.

"My advice is:
If you are feeling aroused, before you start hunting for, or reaching out for someone to have sex with, TRY this:
Masturbate."

It's crass (expressed in a jovial manner fayte) but I agree.

_______________________________________
Scorpio sun, venus, mars, mercury, and uranus
Libra moon, pluto, and asc.