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Author
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Topic: Can anyone tell me about the Cathars?
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A Learning Angel
Knowflake Posts: 144
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted January 27, 2003 05:47 PM
 
Hi all,The Cathars, a medieval gnostic group, keep popping up in my reading. It is my understanding they had a deep connection with the Jewish Kabbalist scholars of their time. Any comments and/or help? Thanks, A Learning Angel IP: Logged |
theFajita
Knowflake Posts: 2007
From: Boca Raton, FL USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted January 27, 2003 09:52 PM
I don't know but it sounds very interesting  I hope you put up some links if you find out more! ------------------
Food is the only art that nourishes! IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 16464
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted January 28, 2003 12:49 AM
I wonder if Aselzion knows.  ------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
theFajita
Knowflake Posts: 2007
From: Boca Raton, FL USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted January 28, 2003 03:54 AM
I bet he does  ------------------
Food is the only art that nourishes! IP: Logged |
A Learning Angel
Knowflake Posts: 144
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted January 28, 2003 08:10 AM
Thank you Randall and theFajita. I came across another interesting fact last night when further researching the Cathars. They had a close affinity of Druidic teachings! This gets more and more interesting...Aselzion, if you are reading this thread(?), can you add anything? Thanks to all, A Learning Angel P.S. Not sure if you call this a thread or a post? IP: Logged |
Quinnie
Knowflake Posts: 541
From: Belfast, Ireland
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 28, 2003 10:33 AM
Wow Learning Angel just the thread I've been looking for, I've been doing some research on the Druidds and the Cathars recently and have come across some info of their history...
They reached their peak in the 8th century, mostly in western Europe, in places like Italy,GERMANY and Bosnia
Theirs was the land of OC, they were a community of adepts and masters of the Gnostic teaching and they had deep affinity with the druids, yep and the Jewish also yes, it gets even more intersting as u say.
part of their teaching was evolving to initiation into the spirit. They believed very much in the concept of duality, in Light-Good-God and Dark-evil-devil and through the source of one being Zoroaster the creation of the twin forces of good and bad, spiritual and material world came about.The objective was reality and the subjective was unreality which was negative when one became bound to it bonded ( like the 15 devil card in tarot) and therefore blinded by the veil. I think this bondage could apply to either spiritual or material, a balance of duality was needed to blend the Holy trinity...body and soul balanced creating the spirit divine spark.
A life dedicated to purity was the life of the ascetic discipline. The objective was to purify man ( cathari meaning pure in Greek), so that by combining material and spiritual man can 'die' that through transfiguration his spirit can be formed- He is reborn of the divine spark and nourished by his soul.
They worshipped in FORESTS and MOUNTAIN TOPS, they were vegetarians and remained celeibate and believed that CHrist was cosmic therefore could not have been crucified!
They believe that suicide was sacred also and that women were equal to men only they could not preach.(huh!lol)
Sacred caves were known as 'doors to catharism' and one of them reached to Bethlehem where the 'PURE' candidate was initiated. The cave of Bethlehem then perhaps was that of the birth of Jesus and the 'death' of Jesus ( his tomb).
It was the master adepts and lower adepts who attained purity that they may be initiated into the spirit and they were like priests to the masses who became members of the cathars by the laying of the hands. They did not have marriage or baptism cermonies. The masses could live as normal, with their belief of reincarnation and without the threat and tyranny of the catholic church, so this attracted many people and also because of their ascetism therefore ( elite faith) they appealed to the elite society also,s o fiancially and that they were good.
This was conflicting with the Catholic Church ( taking their takings dare I say!)at that time. The Catholic Church reacted by killing many of the Cathars but it was difficult to do because of the mountains and caves they retreated to. At one point it was said that some of the Cathars walked down the moutain singing and surrendered to the bonfires waiting for them. Theirs was not to be afraid of death.And so this made them martyrs.
they left behind alot of things, coins, bokks etc. and much speculation still continues over whether these objects are sacred objects of the Holy Grail, the Grail stone and the Cup for example.
Anyways Lots to think about there.
They sound alot like the Essenes also, but many of these communities did have links to each other and communicate together much, and Jesus himself was believe to have travelled all over during his Lost years of perhaps ascetisism and learning.
Thats what I've read so far. IP: Logged |
eternal
Moderator Posts: 311
From: Coastal NC
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted January 28, 2003 10:45 AM
 Quinnie!!Great info!!!! Thanks!! I'm interested in this as well. Lots to ponder! Oh and the similarities to the Essenes!! I see this too!! 
eternal IP: Logged |
A Learning Angel
Knowflake Posts: 144
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted January 28, 2003 11:05 AM
Quinnie, thanks for all this wealth of information! I plan to study it more closely tonight after work. Be forewarned, I may have some questions!Eternal, I also find this so fascinating, especially the more I looked into the subject. The first time I ran across the Cathars was in reading about the Knights Templar. I think there may even be a connection there. Not sure... I have such a fascination with History's little Mysteries. Thanks for sharing, ALA IP: Logged |
A Learning Angel
Knowflake Posts: 144
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted January 28, 2003 09:29 PM
What an interesting read, Quinnie! A couple questions for you:1) Do you think there are modern day Cathars?
2) Can you expand on the 15 devil card in tarot?
3) What do you think are the druid influences? What a remarkable story about them marching to their deaths while singing! Talk about true believers. Have I asked enough questions for you to feel totally bombarded? Excuse the overload - your response fuelled my inquisitive fire! Lastly, in the Lexigram section I started a historical lexi request: "Who are the Cathars?" and got several interesting lexis. You may want to take a peak. Thanks again for you help. ALA IP: Logged |
taj
Knowflake Posts: 530
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted January 28, 2003 11:15 PM
thanks for sharing, quinnie!  IP: Logged |
theFajita
Knowflake Posts: 2007
From: Boca Raton, FL USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted January 29, 2003 01:13 AM
 Quinnie that is very interesting.I find it interesting that so many things that appeal to me have alot of Hebrew/Judaic roots. A Learning Angel, I knew if Azelsion didn't get to you someone would We have a lot of impressive knowflakes here ------------------
Food is the only art that nourishes! IP: Logged |
Quinnie
Knowflake Posts: 541
From: Belfast, Ireland
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 29, 2003 05:14 AM
Oh my!
Learning I just read the lexis! WOW!
You see we already do know the answers.
Ok your questions...
Yes i do think there are modern-day Cathars and Druids, I do believe they are very much the same thing, only one is more secret than the other... nowadays called the free-masonary, and the Great White Brotherhood. I'm not sure about the other.Though I am not so sure alot of what I'm saying here is coming from an intuition.
I do not know much about them for now, they are secret sects!!! ( your lexis OMG)
And you must become a member first before you can know what they teach or do.The similarities the Cathars had with the druids, I believe they were one and the same to begin with, but the Cathars became more like monks and the Druids became more into the ceremonial aspect of things. The Druids are more from Great Britain and ireland, the Cathars from the other parts of West Europe.The Druid rituals were the Greatest part of their belief, because they saw all things as magic to be worked with.
The Cathars saw these things as what must be over-come.
The Druids saw signs in the Earth's nature and worked into it. They worked with it and saw a divinity in nature. They had similar teachings to the cathars, tarot, mystiscm, mathematics,astronomy,astrology etc.
But the difference between them as i say was the way they used their teachings.... through rituals and practical magic as such Druids worked with nature, with her secrets and mysteries.
The Cathars were much more strict about their faith, they were not so into using ceremonies and more into ascetism and purification.
They believed in tolerance and equality and their goal was dedicated to purification, whereas I believe the Druids had maybe more of a heirachy because their priests etc. were ordinary workers too in law, teaching etc... ( this I believe more so now) The Druids sacrificed animals etc. to God but also there are those who sacrificed to the anti-God as such, to the devil, and these people would have also used children as sacrifices.
The two were very similar in what they learned and both were highly learned and devoted to their faith but the cathars were more outwardly passive of it and used their knowledge for subjective purposes to be for the objective purposes, while the Druids created much more of a ceremony of it.
I believe the two are linked and we can link them also to that of Hinduism and the Judaic/Hebrewism, in so much as their teachings and what they learned, the arts of divination. The number 15 tarot card, the Devil is one that is about bondage.
We see the devil has the man and woman, Adam and Eve bound in chains.
That is those of us who are overcome by the devil (darkness), the material world and that which takes our freedom and promises false glories.
But this is mainly because it represents our greed and addiction to it. Balance is always required.
It's like people having too much money int parts of the world causing others to suffer because of the imbalance,they have little where others have most... this creates the suffering and both through the extremes ar bound by money, as money becomes the most important aspect of living as needed for essential living or self-worth.
But this is the illusion that most be peirced through. Because it is not the money, the material aspects, the darkness or the physical that holds us, it is our choice to be held, our excessive greed or addiction anything is that which is false worth.
Used with balance and wisdom there is no bondage and the freedom is the constant exchange of all things physical in balance with the exchange of all things spiritual, because also one who is addicted to the spiritual and knows only this will also be bound to it, and will not survive here in the physcial realm with just spiritual exchange. I think this card shows the difference between the Druids and the Cathars in a way too.
With the emphasis on the physical for the Druids and the emphasis on the spirit/soul for the cathars.
Anyway as I said some of what I have typed here is information I've read but other parts of it is just what I belive to be true by what I have read,
So if u read and research please don't disregard your own in-tuition as you've seen from the lexis we could delve into this information even more and get more out of it than can be told in articles that have studied them historically.
This Especially important because we are using their own teaching and learning to teach and learn about them and a balance of such is the truth of it.
I hope I haven't babbled too much or lost track... Do u have any more questions? Eternal you can easily see the similarities between the cathars and the essenes and the Druids. Their learning was the same, their application to it varied somewhat though, abit like everyone as individuals learning about life. Taj and fajita Thanks for your appreciations. IP: Logged |
A Learning Angel
Knowflake Posts: 144
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted January 29, 2003 06:37 AM
Hi Quinne,I see you have given thoughtful consideration to this subject matter and are inspiring me to do the same. I love the one you tie in the Druids and Cathars. You have made it easy to understand. I love when you say: "Balance is required...". A truer statement never made. Interesting...you say the Druids emphasized the physical and the Cathars the spirit/soul. Together they balance out well, wouldn't you say? Well, back to the books for me. Please keep this string alive with your growing knowledge and I will do the same. Thanks, again, Quinnie! ALA IP: Logged |
Quinnie
Knowflake Posts: 541
From: Belfast, Ireland
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 29, 2003 10:45 AM
Hey ALA no problem, thank u and remember that as soon as you get any furthering info please share with us.
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A Learning Angel
Knowflake Posts: 144
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted January 29, 2003 11:18 AM
Quinnie, One last thought... I ran across the Cathars while reading about the Knights Templars. Have you read about any connections there?Thanks again! ALA
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Quinnie
Knowflake Posts: 541
From: Belfast, Ireland
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 29, 2003 12:23 PM
Yes there are definite connections there.IP: Logged |
Quinnie
Knowflake Posts: 541
From: Belfast, Ireland
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 29, 2003 12:37 PM
A few things....
The Cathers called their land the land of OC.
The c and z letters can be exchanged to each other so that the land of Oc becomes the land of OZ...
I don;t know why this bears any significance as yet.
France in the ages was called Gaul, the Celtic language and one of the languages of the Druids is Gaelic, and infact some Gaelic language is still spoken in parts of France.
i'm still trying to link the Cathars and the Knight's Templars in together but I believe the Knight's Templars are the bloodline as you say of Jesus that connect Jesus with King Aurthur also.
This bloodline is running through the people who would have been teachers, and chosen ones who were probably part of the Cathar's and Druid community and were I believe definitely part of the Essenes.
But I'm gonna do more research now!
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Quinnie
Knowflake Posts: 541
From: Belfast, Ireland
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 29, 2003 12:44 PM
Also Mary Magdalene plays a big part in the Knight's Templars and Jesus and his children (his bloodline) and a place in France called 'Rennes Le Chateau'IP: Logged |
Ra
Moderator Posts: 2641
From:
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted January 29, 2003 01:13 PM
Learning Angel, I am glad I finally had a look at this string! What you are talking about here is connected with much of what I have been studying, and eventually led me into the Balmoral Castle Lexi, which you so superbly wrote about.The Cathars and the Knights Templar certainly had an intimate rapport. One of the commonalities between them was the use of the Kabbalah, among many others. The Vatican put to death more than 100,000 of them.  Keep digging ... the story becomes quite twisted and, well, unbelievable - almost.  IP: Logged |
Ra
Moderator Posts: 2641
From:
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted January 29, 2003 01:15 PM
Quinnie - great info!!! IP: Logged |
A Learning Angel
Knowflake Posts: 144
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted January 29, 2003 07:08 PM
Quinnie,Boy am I glad I posted this thread! Not only are you are a WEALTH of information but you are confirming my interpretations. The Cathars first caught my attention when I was reading about the persecution of the Templars by Pope Clement and France's King, Philip le Bel, in 1307. One of the charges against the Templars was their assocation with the Cathars. Next thing I knew, the Cathars were popping up in more than several books I was reading at the time. Awfully, coincidental. A wild thought to ponder...On Friday 13, 1307, King Philip did a massive surprise arrest at dawn on all Templar temples in France. Many were arrested. Legend has it that those arrested did not resist arrest; instead they went quietly with their prosecutors. Further, legend has it that some did escape and a select few with unmeasurable treasures. No one knows where they went nor where they hid their wealth (spiritual and worldly). I wonder if these French Templars made their way to the Cathars? Just a thought.. ALA IP: Logged |
A Learning Angel
Knowflake Posts: 144
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted January 29, 2003 07:23 PM
Ra, I have read a historical fiction book about a "spiritual battle" fought during the early days of Robert the Bruce's reign with select Templars joining the Celts to form a united force of light. Is this what you were referring to earlier?I've done a lexi on the Knights Templar - 10 pages long! It just wouldn't stop! IP: Logged |
Aselzion
Moderator Posts: 796
From: Peabody, MA USA
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted January 29, 2003 09:11 PM
Greetings...Just had a look at this thread, and despite the Fajita's confidence I could provide some information along these lines, unfotunately I cannot. I do know something about Esoteric Qabalah and Tarot, but haven't been taught anything about the Cathars to date. I do find this thread interesting, and will dig around to see what I can discover, as so much of it seems linked to things that are of interest to me. I'd like to see your Lexigram of The Knights Templar... I haven't had a chance to turn that phrase over in my mind yet, but I know that they are important historically on both exoteric and esoteric levels. Bright Blessings...
A  A hint about The Devil card... it represents MUCH more than has been hinted at in this thread. But then again, so do all of the Higher Arcana keys. One question to ask is who is the Devil pictured in this card? And has anyone ever noticed that the Adam/Eve figures who seem chained to the half cube upon which the Devil stands are not really bound or chained all that tightly! Has anyone had a chance to actually put The Devil card side by side with Key 5, the Hierophant? Or even Key 6, The Lovers. Makes for an interesting and somewhat telling comparison. Just a thought. IP: Logged |
Aselzion
Moderator Posts: 796
From: Peabody, MA USA
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted January 30, 2003 12:53 AM
Hello again...Ok, so I told you my mind was reeling from some of the Lexigrams we've been working on. Well this thread made me wonder about the Cathars.. and then I had a flash that there might be a connection to the Ark of The Covenant, so I did a quick Lexigram: Ark of The Covenant THE CATHAR(s) HAVE THE ARK OF THE COVENANT HARK! RA(H) AT THE CENTER OF THE ARK THE ARK OF THE COVENANT: NEAR NOT FAR
FRANCE - A CAVE OR A COVE THE EARTH: HEART OF THE COVENANT OR
THE ARK: HEART OF THE EARTH FEAR NOT EARTH! RA HEAR(s) THE FEAR OF THE EARTH; HE HEAR(s) THE FEAR OF THE HEART THE ARK OF THE COVENANT: NOT FOR ONE!
FOR EARTH!
******************************************** These are just my preliminary musings on the Ark, and as I say, I know little of the Cathars but what I've gleaned here and from a quick peek at the Net. Hmmmmm, the mind is still reeling... Peace and Light... A
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theFajita
Knowflake Posts: 2007
From: Boca Raton, FL USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted January 30, 2003 02:16 AM
Wow I am learning so much from this thread!I think I need to do some delving into the tarot- after all arcana came up in the lexi for my name many times! I am a little bothered by this devil card- after many years of bad choices and not having much material things during that time, now that I have been doing better I have over the years equated what I own to how my life is. Which is so stupid I know! I really need to let go. thanks guys! ------------------
Food is the only art that nourishes! IP: Logged |
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