posted February 25, 2007 11:16 AM            

Yet, there are some there who wish to lecture the people of the United States. Do they wish to be taken seriously?

India's "Untouchables" Face Violence, Discrimination
Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News
June 2, 2003

More than 160 million people in India are considered "Untouchable"—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.

Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: "Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers"; "Dalit tortured by cops for three days"; "Dalit 'witch' paraded naked in Bihar"; "Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool"; "7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash"; "5 Dalits lynched in Haryana"; "Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked"; "Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits".

"Dalits are not allowed to drink from the same wells, attend the same temples, wear shoes in the presence of an upper caste, or drink from the same cups in tea stalls," said Smita Narula, a senior researcher with Human Rights Watch, and author of Broken People: Caste Violence Against India's "Untouchables." Human Rights Watch is a worldwide activist organization based in New York.

India's Untouchables are relegated to the lowest jobs, and live in constant fear of being publicly humiliated, paraded naked, beaten, and raped with impunity by upper-caste Hindus seeking to keep them in their place. Merely walking through an upper-caste neighborhood is a life-threatening offense.

Nearly 90 percent of all the poor Indians and 95 percent of all the illiterate Indians are Dalits, according to figures presented at the International Dalit Conference that took place May 16 to 18 in Vancouver, Canada.

Crime Against Dalits

Statistics compiled by India's National Crime Records Bureau indicate that in the year 2000, the last year for which figures are available, 25,455 crimes were committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.

No one believes these numbers are anywhere close to the reality of crimes committed against Dalits. Because the police, village councils, and government officials often support the caste system, which is based on the religious teachings of Hinduism, many crimes go unreported due to fear of reprisal, intimidation by police, inability to pay bribes demanded by police, or simply the knowledge that the police will do nothing.

"There have been large-scale abuses by the police, acting in collusion with upper castes, including raids, beatings in custody, failure to charge offenders or investigate reported crimes," said Narula.

That same year, 68,160 complaints were filed against the police for activities ranging from murder, torture, and collusion in acts of atrocity, to refusal to file a complaint. Sixty two percent of the cases were dismissed as unsubstantiated; 26 police officers were convicted in court.

Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes.

Since then, the violence has escalated, largely as a result of the emergence of a grassroots human rights movement among Dalits to demand their rights and resist the dictates of untouchability, said Narula.

Lack of Enforcement, Not Laws

Enforcement of laws designed to protect Dalits is lax if not non-existent in many regions of India. The practice of untouchability is strongest in rural areas, where 80 percent of the country's population resides. There, the underlying religious principles of Hinduism dominate.

Hindus believe a person is born into one of four castes based on karma and "purity"—how he or she lived their past lives. Those born as Brahmans are priests and teachers; Kshatriyas are rulers and soldiers; Vaisyas are merchants and traders; and Sudras are laborers. Within the four castes, there are thousands of sub-castes, defined by profession, region, dialect, and other factors.

Untouchables are literally outcastes; a fifth group that is so unworthy it doesn't fall within the caste system.

Although based on religious principles practiced for some 1,500 years, the system persists today for economic as much as religious reasons.

Because they are considered impure from birth, Untouchables perform jobs that are traditionally considered "unclean" or exceedingly menial, and for very little pay. One million Dalits work as manual scavengers, cleaning latrines and sewers by hand and clearing away dead animals. Millions more are agricultural workers trapped in an inescapable cycle of extreme poverty, illiteracy, and oppression.

Although illegal, 40 million people in India, most of them Dalits, are bonded workers, many working to pay off debts that were incurred generations ago, according to a report by Human Rights Watch published in 1999. These people, 15 million of whom are children, work under slave-like conditions hauling rocks, or working in fields or factories for less than U.S. $1 day.

Crimes Against Women

Dalit women are particularly hard hit. They are frequently raped or beaten as a means of reprisal against male relatives who are thought to have committed some act worthy of upper-caste vengeance. They are also subject to arrest if they have male relatives hiding from the authorities.

A case reported in 1999 illustrates the toxic mix of gender and caste.

A 42-year-old Dalit woman was gang-raped and then burnt alive after she, her husband, and two sons had been held in captivity and tortured for eight days. Her crime? Another son had eloped with the daughter of the higher-caste family doing the torturing. The local police knew the Dalit family was being held, but did nothing because of the higher-caste family's local influence.

There is very little recourse available to victims.

A report released by Amnesty International in 2001 found an "extremely high" number of sexual assaults on Dalit women, frequently perpetrated by landlords, upper-caste villagers, and police officers. The study estimates that only about 5 percent of attacks are registered, and that police officers dismissed at least 30 percent of rape complaints as false.

The study also found that the police routinely demand bribes, intimidate witnesses, cover up evidence, and beat up the women's husbands. Little or nothing is done to prevent attacks on rape victims by gangs of upper-caste villagers seeking to prevent a case from being pursued. Sometimes the policemen even join in, the study suggests. Rape victims have also been murdered. Such crimes often go unpunished.

Thousands of pre-teen Dalit girls are forced into prostitution under cover of a religious practice known as devadasis, which means "female servant of god." The girls are dedicated or "married" to a deity or a temple. Once dedicated, they are unable to marry, forced to have sex with upper-caste community members, and eventually sold to an urban brothel.

Resistance and Progress

Within India, grassroots efforts to change are emerging, despite retaliation and intimidation by local officials and upper-caste villagers. In some states, caste conflict has escalated to caste warfare, and militia-like vigilante groups have conducted raids on villages, burning homes, raping, and massacring the people. These raids are sometimes conducted with the tacit approval of the police.

In the province Bihar, local Dalits are retaliating, committing atrocities also. Non-aligned Dalits are frequently caught in the middle, victims of both groups.

"There is a growing grassroots movement of activists, trade unions, and other NGOs that are organizing to democratically and peacefully demand their rights, higher wages, and more equitable land distribution," said Narula. "There has been progress in terms of building a human rights movement within India, and in drawing international attention to the issue."

In August 2002, the UN Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (UN CERD) approved a resolution condemning caste or descent-based discrimination.

posted February 25, 2007 01:35 PM              

Yet, there are some there who wish to lecture the people of the United States. Do they wish to be taken seriously?

:::

YES , WE DO !
cos unlike some people like you , we atleast accept that we are wrong .
(and btw, did you forget the great KU KLAX KLAN or the treatment the you people gave to your own people during the disastrous hurricane. )

posted February 25, 2007 02:52 PM            

The Klan is dead to all intents and purposes and has been for more than 40 years. When it existed as a force, it was fought..sometimes by physical force by the greater part of our citizens. Today, Klan members who got away with past crimes have been and still are being hunted down, brought up on criminal charges, prosecuted, convicted and punished.

Further, unlike the caste system of India...which is institutionalized and accepted across the broad spectrum of Indian society, the Klan was never accepted by more than a tiny fraction of Americans.

Get back to me when you in India turn the corner and join the civilized world.

posted February 25, 2007 04:11 PM            

quote:

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Get back to me when you in India turn the corner and join the civilized world.

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What??? Are there some bigots finally coming out of the closet now?

Rg, aren't you sick of certain people (*cough* white westerners) reserving the right for themselves to judge on who is civilized and who is not. Its seems to me like they should clean up their own trash instead of digging up other's. Its kind of stupid to assume how all Indians think IMO.

(And BTW, not to long ago in the last century: prominent men in office and policemen were members of the KLAN. That's why all the blacks, Jews,etc had no were to go when they wanted to report crimes commited against them. Widely accepted by a small minority? BULLSH1T

posted February 25, 2007 04:18 PM              

and how can anyOne justify this caste system..In India..all God's children,
but the One's Man decides to discard...

this is horrible, it's 2007

not the Dark Ages. ...

but that is where we are headed, if people
continue to condone a system, such as this!

ALL equal, ALL GODs Children, ALL Respected... .In LOve and Light. . .

posted February 25, 2007 04:37 PM            

Now DL, exactly where in the world are you from? I notice you never seem to mention any shortcomings of the society you escaped from and I wonder about that. Is that society so pure, so innocent of any cultural deviations as to not be a topic of discussion? And DL, if that's true, whatever made you decide to abandon the paradise of your birth place?

Or is it DL, that your preference runs to anti-Americanism.

While I await your response DL, I'll continue to suggest that no nation which uses "institutionalized" murder, torture, rape and every other means of oppression against a sizable portion of it's citizenry is in fact...a civilized society or culture.

posted February 25, 2007 06:32 PM            

It doesn't matter that we think the Caste system is wrong. It is tied to the world's oldest religion and it is what people believe in. Who are we to come and start telling people how wrong that is. Its beyong arrogant...

And comparing it to America is also rediculous. The slavery system in America was an economic issue, the caste system is a religious one. BIG difference...

quote:

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They are frequently raped or beaten as a means of reprisal against male relatives who are thought to have committed some act worthy of upper-caste vengeance.

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This happens across the board to all castes, in many communities, not just India. Goes across religions too...

quote:

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cos unlike some people like you , we atleast accept that we are wrong .
(and btw, did you forget the great KU KLAX KLAN or the treatment the you people gave to your own people during the disastrous hurricane. )

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Heeeey easy there!!! You don't need to put anyone else down to defend yourself. So this nation did some bad stuff too. Name one that hasn't?

quote:

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What??? Are there some bigots finally coming out of the closet now?

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Oh come on. I disagree with what Jwhop said because I do not think that one can call the caste system "uncivilized" but he was defending his own culture. Its alright to disagree with him but at least be fair he wasn't the first one to pick up a biggoted comment.

quote:

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Rg, aren't you sick of certain people (*cough* white westerners) reserving the right for themselves to judge on who is civilized and who is not.

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White westerners? Ermm thanks for that oh so not racist generalization...somehow me defending India doesn't seem so appropriate anymore cuz white westerners like me can only insult and attack what we consider the poor "uncivilized savage" right? Good to know...Why can't people just say what they mean IE. what YOU said was WRONG as opposed to what YOUR KIND does is wrong...

quote:

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and how can anyOne justify this caste system..In India..

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I don't thing anyone SHOULD justify it. Because to justify it is to judge it. And why should anyone judge someone's religion/culture?

posted February 25, 2007 07:49 PM            

They try to scrownge a living off by giving into lower playing jobs but it barely benifits them.

posted February 25, 2007 07:55 PM              

and it's simple

there is right
and there is wrong...

posted February 25, 2007 07:56 PM            

quote:

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It is why morons who try to make child labour illegal fail to see that some of these kids end up on the streets anyway. They need a way to try to suppor their parents.

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Yea seriously all those people protesting the use of sweatshops and all that stuff have never ever come up with a solution to the problems of these people. Perhaps making the conditions safer in sweatshops should be a priority rather than shutting them down. But they are a way of life and they are the way countries take the road to modernizing. This is how the people get more money rather than straving.

posted February 26, 2007 12:22 AM            

quote:

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Now DL, exactly where in the world are you from? I notice you never seem to mention any shortcomings of the society you escaped from and I wonder about that. Is that society so pure, so innocent of any cultural deviations as to not be a topic of discussion? And DL, if that's true, whatever made you decide to abandon the paradise of your birth place?

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At the risk of sounding redundant...didn't I already mention to you where I came from?

Second of all, another one of your stereotypical assumptions. I didn't "escape" from any society. And why my parents came here is none of your business but I can assure you it has nothing to do with being "oppressed". I have just as many relatives back at home who are very content and have no plans to leave. I've even spent a long, memorable-in-good-way, summer there....so again, did I really "escape"?

And why don't I live there as opposed to here? The answer: I could go back home and be just as content and happy...but I already have a life here and some attachments.

And for the last time, I don't remember in the fine print anywhere saying that I have to agree with the gov't's policies to live here. And just because I do disagree doesn't mean I hate living here. It's not the same thing as becoming holier than thou and commenting on how other people in the world live....as you have been doing. Did you not snark at Sweet Stars for doing the same thing? Hypocrisy at its finest.

And why haven't I brought up anything negative? I have in an earlier post...I acknowledged the nepotism/corruption going in a high profile case back at home. But why don't I emphasize it you ask? Well, why don't you emphasize the negative of your background?

Bottom line, your thread wreaks of self-righteousness,holier-than-thou-ness, and ethnocentrism so get a grip.

posted February 26, 2007 07:26 AM              

yes , and system that almost seamlessly integrates the differences and comes out on top within almost ffty yrs. of thier independence .
also a system that can seamlessly assimilate the second biggest minority population (bigger than entire population of majority of the countries around the world .)
aslo a system that has somehow worked with millions of subcates , thousand of languages and hundreds of ethnicity (be it hindu, muslim , christian ,buddhist or jews )
and yes , a system that also lets an italian (by birth ) led the largest democratic party . a minority community person head the govt , who is sworn again by a muslim president. (and for your kind information , even the last president was a so called 'dalit '-the lower caste and again, indian constitution was written/compiled by a dalit and the constitution enshirend the quota system for these people . )
majority of the house members are from this community only .
half of the states are headed by the lower caste people .

all this is the power of the SYSTEM .

all this within fifty yrs .
so the day , you have a black or woman headed govt , you too will understand the power of the system .

untill then ofcourse , you can shamelessly rejoice in your so called civilized world .

:::Until then, I would keep your anti-America comments to a minimum because there's a lot more where this came from and I won't be shy about putting it up:::

posted February 26, 2007 07:30 AM              

untill then ofcourse , you can shamelessly rejoice in your so called civilized world .

:::Until then, I would keep your anti-America comments to a minimum because there's a lot more where this came from and I won't be shy about putting it up:::

posted February 26, 2007 08:16 AM              

you betcha !
i feel like throwing up at times by the attitudes but ofcourse i wouldn't include everyone .
i had the opportunity to know quite a few nice peeple here . for example , aquainferno , she is english - the same people cos of whom we as a family were ruined during partition of the country . but then with her , i feel destined even to know her through net . undoubtly one of the finest person that i have known here .

:::and how can anyOne justify this caste system..In India..all God's children,
but the One's Man decides to discard...

:::

but then who is supporting it ?
i didn't see any indian doing it over here irrespective of the religion or caste ,though we are quite a bunch here .

point any of my posts that supports it .

and for anyone who wants to understnd the caste system and how and why it operates plz refer to my posts to day dreamer .

and to put the records , i am from the highest category of the society .
so what ?
my closest friend is a muslim ,other one is lowest caste person .

:::While I await your response DL, I'll continue to suggest that no nation which uses "institutionalized" murder, torture, rape and every other means of oppression against a sizable portion of it's citizenry is in fact...a civilized society or culture.

:::

and before she responses ,
i would mention a country which uses its latest bombs on the innocent people for its selfish gains is well A VERY MUCH CIVILIZED . right!

:::In case you hadn't noticed DL, this is the 21st century.
:::
oh yeah , we noticed it , the atom bomb explosion let us know that .
but sadly the pain and cries of those innocents never reached you .

:::And comparing it to America is also rediculous. The slavery system in America was an economic issue, the caste system is a religious one. BIG difference:::

NOT ACTUALLY !
caste system has its basis from the ecnomic system of that time only , some five thousnad yrs back .
what we see , today is more cos of mindblocs and political gains and gimmicks .

:::Heeeey easy there!!! You don't need to put anyone else down to defend yourself. So this nation did some bad stuff too. Name one that hasn't?

:::
yep , i would repeat the last part of your question too .
and i would need the answer too .

:::Just a little reminder to those who never miss an opportunity to bash the US or Americans...to clean up your own mess first:::
if you can't , make mess around the world .
bomb the iraqis (oops sorry , is it the iranians now )

:::Sweep in front of your own door and the world will be clean as Jwhop said:::

:::India growing poor population and well the sad thing is like China some of the more older folks who haven't had a chance to adpot to the modern times quickly enough are being left out on the road.:::

oh well , you ain't criticizing us .
but i recently read an article ragerding the social changes brount by the ecomic changes .
i'll try to put the article for you otherwise i would explain myself .

posted February 26, 2007 09:27 AM            

quote:

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you betcha !
i feel like throwing up at times by the attitudes but ofcourse i wouldn't include everyone .
i had the opportunity to know quite a few nice peeple here . for example , aquainferno , she is english - the same people cos of whom we as a family were ruined during partition of the country . but then with her , i feel destined even to know her through net . undoubtly one of the finest person that i have known here .

---

Yeah, I know not everyone is like that...I'll tell you as well that I get along fabulously with alot of Portuguese people (the same people who oppressed us) and even alot of my family back at home have been classified by the gov't as mestico (meaning mixed race). On a side note...unlike most mesticos back at home...my family had been absorbed back into our tribe and had been living that way of life for centuries. The thing is that I am sick of the people that do decide to judge without knowing what we are about in the first place.

posted February 26, 2007 01:20 PM              

4 castes of sisters and brothers, who
condone and allow this treatment of their
brothers and sisters

in the name of Religion?

posted February 26, 2007 02:18 PM            

To me, it's the pinnacle of uncivilized behavior and wouldn't be tolerated in the United States for 10 seconds.

Still, those who so easily accept this barbaric behavior are the very same people who were willing to overlook the murder, torture, rape and oppression of the Iraqi people under the butcher of Baghdad, Saddam Hussein. Of course, Saddam only killed about a million Iraqis and God only knows how many were raped or tortured under his murderous regime who did not die. I suppose that's to be chalked up to "culture" as well.

This is the moral equivalence crowd who would equate the US with Saddam, with Hitler, with Stalin and other dictatorial tyrants. The crowd who attempts to equate the KKK..which was mostly regional and southern to the institutionalized caste system of India which is accepted across the entire spectrum of Indian society. This same crowd professes to see Bush as a murderer...while at the same time excusing Saddam, excusing the murders in India and excusing the murder of Iraqi citizens by terrorists...who are their Muslim brothers and sisters.

The only thing one learns from these disciples of equivocation is that they are no friend of representative government, the rule of law, equality, the United States or Americans.

India Has Killed 10 Million Girls in 20 Years
Girls Are Considered a Burden in Sections of Indian Society
By PALASH KUMAR
Dec. 15, 2006 http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/003051.html

posted February 26, 2007 08:52 PM            

quote:

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you betcha !
i feel like throwing up at times by the attitudes but ofcourse i wouldn't include everyone .

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Geee thanks for not including everyone...the fact that i was one of the first to post in defense of the system went right over everyone's head...yet that white westerners comment offended me and rightfully so!!! So next time people feel like insulting Jwhop remember we are of a similar (somewhat) background but don't share many similar views. Some but not all...

quote:

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but then who is supporting it ?
i didn't see any indian doing it over here irrespective of the religion or caste ,though we are quite a bunch here .

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YooohooO! My friend is part of the Brahman caste and he supports it.

quote:

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i would mention a country which uses its latest bombs on the innocent people for its selfish gains is well A VERY MUCH CIVILIZED . right!

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God get over it...that is soooo petty! Ermm I did not insult YOUR country, in fact im here defending it quite often so why you feel the need to insult MINE is beyond my understanding? Your issues with Jwhop are your issues with Jwhop...and please don't tell me about bombs. India has plenty of nuclear weapons which it will NOT hesitate to use on the "innocent people" of Pakistan and vise versa...so please lets not get into a discussion about civilization and weapons.

quote:

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oh yeah , we noticed it , the atom bomb explosion let us know that .
but sadly the pain and cries of those innocents never reached you .

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Yea your right they never reached us. The fact that I saw 9/11 happen from my high school building (i was in 9th grade and not too far) and saw the whole thing and how my city felt about it...but ur right nothing ever reaches us in the far untoucheable U.S.
You know what if people with to get rid of colonialist attitudes perhaps they should start with themselves and not point a finger at others. If you feel your culture is justified then you won't feel the need to say "OH YEA YOUR DOING THAT"...it doesn't matter what WE ARE DOING IF WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS LEGITIMATE ENOUGH...

Yes the Caste system has been tied to economics but it is also integrated in religion. While some priests did claim that African Americans were inferior it was not in any religious text or in any way integrated into the religion. The caste is tied to reincarnation.

I absoultely DISPISE, HATE AND ABHOR when people insult someone else's religion. I came close to having a nice little spat with this girl in my Psychology class today. We had to discuss bizzare beliefs and she said Astrology is crap. Shes entitled to say that. BUT when she went on to say its silly and foolish I wanted to slap her. Who is she to put down MY intelligence for my "religion" when she wears say a cross on her neck. How are her belief's better than mine? This is what annoys me, people have NOOOOOO respect for each other. If anyone doesn't like the caste system then the people of the Hindu religion should be the one's reforming it, not anyone else overseas saying how barbaric it is. IT IS SOMEONE ELSE'S RELIGION. THAT IS ALL THAT SHOULD MATTER.

quote:

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To me, it's the pinnacle of uncivilized behavior and wouldn't be tolerated in the United States for 10 seconds.

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Very true, it would not be tolerated in the United States and I am happy for that, its why it shouldn't be in the United States. Yet if its tolerated in India, all the power to them.

posted February 26, 2007 09:34 PM            

quote:

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Geee thanks for not including everyone...the fact that i was one of the first to post in defense of the system went right over everyone's head...yet that white westerners comment offended me and rightfully so!!!

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Ok, and I apologize but I clarified that I meant I am sick of the Westerners that do ride on their white horses pointing their fingers at the rest of us and making stereotypical judgements....it does happen and its sooooo annoying to me. This thread is a perfect example.

quote:

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YooohooO! My friend is part of the Brahman caste and he supports it.

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Again, that is one person that you cannot say represents the WHOLE of India.

quote:

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God get over it...that is soooo petty! Ermm I did not insult YOUR country, in fact im here defending it quite often so why you feel the need to insult MINE is beyond my understanding? Your issues with Jwhop are your issues with Jwhop...and please don't tell me about bombs. India has plenty of nuclear weapons which it will NOT hesitate to use on the "innocent people" of Pakistan and vise versa...so please lets not get into a discussion about civilization and weapons.

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Ayiyiyi...the sensitivity again (I undertstand, I have an 8th house moon & Cancer sun ). His comment was mainly directed at JWHOP. And secondly, that same argument applies to JWHOP too and the intent of him starting this thread...think about it.