posted May 10, 2008 07:55 PM            

It is a perspective held by the right wing that the media is too left-wing.
It is a perspective held by the left wing that the media is too right-wing.

Might I suggest that, if you dont see any good news about this war,
and if the best you can dig up is an internet email,
perhaps the truth is that there is nothing good about this war.
Perhaps you could see that if you didnt have a conflict of interest?

Show us how good you are at seeing all sides of an issue.
What do you have to say for the innocent children
being maimed and killed in the name of this dead-end war?
Speak for them and tell us what they would say.
Tell us about the perspective of the civilian families in Iraq,
who are so happy to see their children blown to bits for your cause.

I'm sorry your thread didnt turn out the way you hoped, dear.

But I think its alright to speak my truth wherever I am.

And the point of a protest is to make it where it will be seen and heard
by the very people who you are trying to get through to.

You dont just get out of the way of the war-mongers' parade;
instead, you sit down right in front of it and block its path.

This is how protest works.

The topic of the thread you posted here
was tailor-made to suit the information I had to share.

So I shared it. Precisely where it applied. Deal with it.

History will show this war to be even more misguided than the Vietnam war.

What will you tell your grandkids when they ask you how you saw it?

That is, if we have a future, and grandkids, at all.

The way this is going, I dont see much hope.

Will America only understand the cost of war when it is waged within American borders?

Keep up the surge, and you'll see what kind of backlash it brings.

That is just simple karmic arithmetic.

And then you'll have an excuse to wage another war, lol.

You are part of the problem, Eleanore.

posted May 10, 2008 08:10 PM            

As usual, you take a violent position in a matter which you know nothing about.

*shakes head*

posted May 10, 2008 08:34 PM            

quote:

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Yes, this is a thread few will appreciate but who many will enjoy trying to pick apart. Anyone who has similar stories, reflections or information to post, please feel free to share them here. Anyone who disagrees, please try to do so respectfully. This is one thread out of hundreds and I'm kindly requesting from its inception that its purpose not be trashed or misdirected.

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posted May 10, 2008 08:39 PM            

But we all have a say here.

This isnt a right-wing political site; not yet.

There are plenty of those around if thats what you want.

Nice cozy echo-chambers where everyone tells you how right you are,
and you never have to see a dissenting point of view.

You might be much happier in a place like that.

posted May 10, 2008 08:52 PM            

quote:

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Anyone who disagrees, please try to do so respectfully.

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I did.

You all took it as an opportunity to wage your personal attacks.

Now you see what has become of this thread.

posted May 10, 2008 08:53 PM            

quote:

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A letter, written by a military guy stationed in Kuwait, days before the war broke out---another side to this saga, another viewpoint.
"Why Iraq?

I first crossed the border into Iraq in February -- February of 1991. I sat aboard a UH-60 Blackhawk that was packed with other soldiers and their gear and slingloading a pallet of supplies destined for Log Base Zebra. Days later, I watched as the Republican Guard retreated in column to Bagdad but we couldn't open fire. The cease fire was already in effect.

The absolutely horrible things I saw on the way into Kuwait City I cannot describe. I reckon, though, that the feelings that stirred inside me were akin to those of my ancestors when they looked across No-Man's land in Verdun to see their brothers suffering and dying trapped in the wire, or when they liberated the death camps in Bergin Beltsin or Auschwitz. How can I
describe what months of systematic looting, rape,torture, butchery, and murder can do to a population?

The Iraqi army in occupation in tiny Kuwait became as animals. They gang raped children. They tortured women to death and weighted down their dismembered bodies with cinderblocks to be casually tossed into the
Persian Gulf. There were so many corpses discarded in that manner that the Seal Team assigned to dive in from the Persian Gulf, come up on land, and secure the US Embassy could not get through carcasses and
ultimately had to turn back. How can I describe the lives and livelihoods Iraq destroyed in a few short months?

Can you imagine a sky so full of smoke that for nearly half a year one could not make a distinction between night and day? Can you imagine the smell, the terrible sweet nauseating smell of nearly a quarter of a
million dead? Can you imagine the disease which ran rampant among the occupied populace because Iraq refused them medical attention? They died from infection which turned to gangrene. They died of influenza and malnourishment. They died of Cholera
because dead human beings tossed into the water supply rotted there and contaminated the drinking water.

When people say that Saddam Hussein is not a
totalitarian dictator, that he is not a monster, that he is not a truly evil man, they are mistaken. He is quite possibly worse than Adolf Hitler. Hitler never
once used chemical or biological weapons on the battlefield, even in Stalengrad when they could have made the difference between winning and losing the Eastern Front. Hitler did, of course, use gas upon herding millions of innocent people into the showers. He had that done because of religious differences. Saddam Hussein has used them on Iranians and on his own people. It is very likely that he left chemical
weapons disguised in innocuous containers for the Coalition forces to detonate as if they were conventional munitions, thus infecting as many as 350,000 US troops. Don't you think, given the opportunity, that he would herd up anyone he could and
put them in the gas chamber, too? Perhaps he could state religious differences as the motivation.

He has not signed either the Geneva Conventions or the Nuremberg Accords as far as the ethical treatment of prisoners. He is guilty of or responsible for countless, countless millions of human rights violations.

When they say he doesn't support terrorism, they are mistaken. He has laundered money for terrorist organizations through his state run bank, the bank of Iraq, including Al Quada. He has provided euipment, munitions, training camps,and skilled "advisors" to those same organizations. One training camp has the
fuselage of a Boeing 767 and was clearly used to train terrorists in how to take over and hold hostage an airliner. And who could forget the fact that he once filled a commercial airliner with convicts and corpses and then flew it in the direction of a US Carrier Group based in the Mediterranean Sea until we had no
alternative but to shoot it down? What if we hadn't?

Some people ask why we have to go into Iraq. Why did we have to go into Germany?

Also, he is quite totally insane. Given time and freedom to accomplish his goals, the leader of Iraq could, quite literally, bring about the destruction of the entire world. Those who didn't capitulate to his
will could find themselves the victims of a dirty bomb, or a man-made deadly disease, or an occupying force of soldiers who are trained in the art of gang-rape, torture, and butchery.

The man is evil. His regime is evil. His purpose is evil.

Saddam Hussein IS a terrorist.

"We will make no distinction between the men who committed these horrible acts and those who harbor them." President George W. Bush

America is more than a nation, it is an IDEA. It is an idea that we, as human beings, have rights handed down
by our creator. It is an idea that these rights cannot ever be stripped, abridged, slighted, or removed. These are inalienable rights. It is an idea that we must, from time to time, roll up our sleeves and fight
and sweat and bleed -- and possibly even die -- in order to preserve those rights when some two-bit so-and-so tries to take them from us.

Just why is it that some completely wrong-minded Americans feel they need to go to Iraq and become "human shields." I say we should make no distinction between them and those who committed these horrible acts. I say revoke their American citizenship and bar them from reentry onto our sovereign soil. I say, seize their holdings and property and use it to the benefit of those who are fighting for America instead
of letting them keep it to be used, quite possibly, for evil deeds.

We see people like Barbara Streisand, Mike Farrell, Martin Sheen, Sean Penn, and Danny Glover saying how wrong our government is. They would say so regardless of whether we, as Americans, and we, as human beings,
were in danger from terrorist despots like Saddam Hussein or not. They would say so because they are liberals who never uttered a peep when Clinton ordered Serbia and Bosnia bombed back to the stone age. They
would make these remarks and spout this diatribe even if our friendly, fun-loving, peace-loving enemies had crashed a plane into Beverly Hills. (The terrorists
would never do that. Hollywood is their strongest ally and they know it.)

They are hypocrites. They are people who would spit on my uniform and call me a baby-killer while demanding taxpayer funded abortions. They are to be ignored or, if possible, sanctioned.

We see news commentators and organizations like AOL TIME WARNER who seek out the most vociferous liberal minded fool to spout nonsense and propaganda and then represent that uninformed voice as the voice of the
majority. It isn't. CNN ignores a pro-America rally of 30,000 people within sight of their Altanta headquarters to report on a peace rally of 300 scruffy looking individuals waving signs like, "Lesbians
against Bush" that took place miles and miles away.

I submit to you that the majority of Americans are not against Bush and have little to nothing in common with that pitifully small crowd of folks. We read the
endless debate in our magazines and newspapers about what a terrible precedent it will set if America goes to war. How will it do so? Have we not gone to war before? Was our very nation not built on the blood of our forefathers at places like Yorktown and Valley Forge?

I read an article describing how we (and this makes me laugh) will be war criminals if we do make war without obtaining the approval of the UN, Congress, the
Supreme Court, Tom Brokaw, whoever. Is William Clinton, then, a war criminal for his actions in Bosnia and Croatia? I read an e-mail describing how frightened High School children are that America will reinstitute the draft. How did we raise such a
generation of cowards and shirkers? Where -- WHERE -- is America's backbone? How is it that we have bred into our culture the concept that every citizen is "entitled" to all of the freedoms and liberty that we
enjoy without occasionally contributing to the security of the state? When did the concepts of duty, honor, integrity, and responsibility fall out of vogue? I hear about how harshly history will judge us
for our "unilateral" (such a lie!) actions. Imagine if we did not act. Would we have a history to render that judgment?

It is terribly easy to sit at home in the comfort of your living room and watch the media tell you that the "majority" of Americans do not support this war (a
blatant lie). For those foolish enough to actually believe that rhetoric, it is also easy to sit at home in the comfort of your abode and watch the media tell you that the "majority" of Americans do not support
our President and properly elected leaders (a total lie).

The fact is that most LIBERALS do not support any actions on the part of the conservative majority, even to their own detriment. Remember how Josclyn Elders,
then Surgeon General and Clinton appointee, allowed shipment after shipment of defective condoms to arrive in American high schools? These condoms provided no protection against either pregnancy or disease but Elders shipped them anyway and contained the secret
uselessness of the items because she wanted to support the "concept" of the action. Thus, undocumented numbers of high school age children contracted diseases, even AIDS at worst, or became pregnant because concepts and theories are nice, but they don't really DO anything. The entire time, they thought Uncle Sugar was "protecting" them. It is terribly easy to try to dictate to the military how the military needs to accomplish their difficult and daunting task, even having never served yourself.
This is much akin to telling a fireman how to fight a fire having never seen a flame. We have a society in which people are taught just enough in schools to think that they are smarter than others in any field.

To the armchair quarterbacks, get on the field yourself or hold your tongues. You honestly don't know what you're talking about. Let the experts do their work.
All of these things are terribly easy.

It is much harder to get off your butt and get on your knees and pray for the leadership of this country, pray for the servicemen who face this terrible thing,
and pray to God by His grace to grant you FAITH that this nation will win through -- FAITH that our leaders are slightly more informed than Dan Rather or Connie Chung -- FAITH that if we are to have a future,
justice demands that we intervene, right now, right here.

I may have to return to those powdery hot sands. I may have to return to that smell and that coppery desert taste. I may have to and I will do so gladly. I will serve. I WILL do my duty.

Don't dishonor me.

Don't dishonor the memory of the sacrifices made in September of 2001. Don't dishonor the sacrifices made by my brothers and sisters in arms who have given everything for the idea that is America (65 service
members have lost their lives so far in Operation Enduring Freedom). Don't disgrace yourself by dishonoring their memory.

It is time to make a choice. It is time to draw the line. It is time to stand tall and be proud and do this terrible and costly task that needs doing. It is time to support those who are down in the blood and the mud having a direct or indirect hand in the doing of it. It is time to remember what our ancestors fought and died to create and preserve."

Yours,
SGT Wm. Gregg Bridgeman

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posted May 10, 2008 09:06 PM            

Okay.. maybe in your world that is an actionable violence. Get back to me when you can really defend the wounded Soldiers..

Oh wait.. I forgot.. you couldn't be a Soldier nor, in all your diatribes, would you ever give yourself up for someone else.

You are weak, in spirit and in soul. Well, at least you have the lovely and delusional LTT on your side (or is she really you)

posted May 10, 2008 09:09 PM            

quote:

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ListensToTrees
Knowflake
Posts: 4621
From: Infinity
Registered: Jul 2005
posted May 10, 2008 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree.
Personally I would have kept it to the other thread, but thats just me......

I try to consider all sides.

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Thank you, LTT.

posted May 10, 2008 09:23 PM            

quote:

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Soldiers spoke of free-fire zones, the shootings and beatings of innocent civilians, racism at the highest levels of the military, sexual harassment and assault within the military, and the torturing of prisoners

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You know what this happens in every war all over the world. Someone people are just messed up and abuse their power. This is not the rule of American military, in fact they try to punish these sort of actions pretty severely.

quote:

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His posts are a true testament to his real nature and bitterness against those he does not understand or understands and loathes anyway. Of course he pretends to worry about the troops, posting about how they come back with disabilities, wounded, PTSD and a myriad of other problems that the FAMILIES face when dealing with a returning Soldier. If he truely cared, he would not litter a thread that was obviously pro-Military with more of this anti-war, Anti-Military sentiment

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Exactly Pid!

quote:

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I'd take Tranquil Poet/Atlantic Myst over this in a minute.

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LOL I just thought about her lately...she was entertaining

quote:

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When one feels so passionate....about an issue as important as this?

It's a tricky one.
I can see now that there is no easy answer.

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Its true there is no easy answer LTT but I am sure HSC could have managed to state what he wanted without posting like a page worth of articles with a strong anti military sentiment in a military thread. We all know Eleanore just wants to inform us and give people a new perspective. Truth be told there are plenty of other threads on HSC's perspective, its only fair to give someone else a shot. But if he wished to disagree with something there were better less passive aggressive methods to apply.

quote:

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Folks, if you can, I suggest,
that you please try and discuss this matters without resorting to personal insults.

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I agree with this...

quote:

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What helps me sleep at night is that my father is a Vietnam HERO, my husband is a WAR hero (Bosnia / Iraq and soon to be Iraq again). I sleep well at night, unless he is not with me, because I am protected by heroes like him.

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And I am eternally grateful for heroes like that Pid!!! My family comes from a World War 2 era in Eastern Europe and my grandfather, God rest his soul, fought himself in the front lines. I am so grateful for people like him because if it wasn't for our heroes the soldiers I would not be here!!

{quote]Anyway, I remember the first time I told my husband, in front of some of his guys, that the mainstream media was now consistently referring to terrorists as "insurgents". After a moment of eye popping, shocked silence, they burst out laughing. Something was said along the lines of "if the media ever got anything right, they'd realize that the real insurgents are the Iraqis who have joined with us to fight against the regime and the terrorists".[/quote]

EXACTLY! Got into a fight with yet another @$$hole in my school who kept referring to soldiers and police officers as evil pigs and praising the terrorists for their fights against an "oppressive" regime...What a douchebag! I brought up the question of the people who fight with us in order to better their lives and he ever so brilliantly responded that they are all racist elitist ******** ....Ya...ok... Apparently I have never been able to accept the facts that idiots are many, but the truly wise are few. Thats why I am so happy that I am able to find some truly brilliant people, like some of you guys here at LL, that really see things in a clear way and are able to stand up for their beliefs.

quote:

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Tell us about the perspective of the civilian families in Iraq,
who are so happy to see their children blown to bits for your cause.

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Their children are more blown to bits by their own country men wishing for power than by anything the American military does.

quote:

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I'm sorry your thread didnt turn out the way you hoped, dear

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I think it did, dear, because the people who Eleanore was speaking to heard her.

posted May 10, 2008 09:34 PM            

quote:

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Even if Eleanore disagrees with Pid, its okay because Pid is an intelligent and respectful human being who can accept disagreements without calling the opposition evil and immoral

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Okay, Born Yesterday.

posted May 10, 2008 09:35 PM            

And if she has changed her mind due to the flagrant disregard for my kindly requested intent for this thread, well, that's that.

posted May 10, 2008 09:47 PM            

Army Sgt. Jose Munoz is telling the military's story to the American people. Munoz, who is originally from Mexico but moved to Texas when he was 10, is stationed at Fort Bragg, N.C., and has deployed to Iraq twice.

WASHINGTON, Nov. 9, 2007 – Serving in the military was something Jose Munoz always wanted to do, but it wasn’t until after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks that he was spurred to enlist and fulfill that dream.

Munoz, now a sergeant with five and a half years in the Army, said a lack of maturity stopped him from following through on his plan to join the Army after high school in 1999. However, when the Sept. 11 attacks happened, “I said to myself, ‘Well, I can do this now,’” he said.
Munoz, who is originally from Mexico but moved to Texas when he was 10, is stationed at Fort Bragg, N.C., and has deployed to Iraq twice. On his most recent deployment, he escorted and supplied security to logistics convoys. Although the convoys were hit several times by improvised explosive devices, his unit was able to cover nearly a million miles in the middle and southern portion of Iraq.

Munoz is one of 10 servicemembers who served in Iraq, Afghanistan or the Horn of Africa who have been selected to tell the military’s story to the American people at community and business events, veterans organizations and other gatherings as part of the Defense Department’s “Why We Serve” public outreach program.

Munoz participated in his first Why We Serve speaking engagement Oct. 25 in Pittsburgh. He said it was a positive experience and the audience had a lot of questions. “It’s pretty much just going out there and sharing with them my experiences overseas and my experience here,” Munoz said of the program. “I’m not trying to recruit (anyone); that’s not part of this. I just go out there and share my experience.”

The American people don’t often see positive stories about the war on terror or the military in the media, Munoz said, so his goal is to let people see a different angle of the military and those who serve.

In May, Munoz received his United States citizenship. While he said it was a big event for him, it didn’t constitute a big change. “Since I joined the military, I always felt like I was part of the U.S.,” he said.

Why We Serve began in fall 2006 and was originally the idea of then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Marine Gen. Peter Pace. Representatives from all the service branches participate in the program, which is conducted in quarterly segments. Munoz and the other nine servicemembers in his group constitute the fifth iteration since the program began.

posted May 10, 2008 10:26 PM              

You can't see any reason why Eleanore and others might be upset with you at all? I understood at the outset that Eleanore just wanted a single positive posting about what's going on. There are many, many posts about the opposite side.

I understand that you wanted to provide another viewpoint, though you could have put in in a separate posting. In fact you did make 3 other separate postings about this subject, offering opposite viewpoints.

Can you not see how disheartening it would be for Eleanore, and others who have spouses in the military for you to do what you did? Can you not understand their sadness at your actions?

*sigh* It came as a bit of a shock to me, when I saw what you contributed here, I have to be honest.

Amanda

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The truth is ... everything counts. Everything. Everything we do and everything we say. Everything helps or hurts; everything adds to or takes away from someone else. ~ Countee Cullen

We are weaving character every day, and the way to weave the best character is to be kind and to be useful. Think right, act right; it is what we think and do that makes us who we are. ~ Elbert Hubbard

posted May 10, 2008 10:48 PM            

I expect criticism, even from you, and I'll stand alone if I have to.

I'm not here to help people feel better about killing children.

There are plenty of pro-war sites where Eleanore can go for that.

I wont stand in her way.

posted May 10, 2008 11:00 PM              

I'm not asking you to feel good about innocent children being killed, or anyone else either. Eleanore is a great deal closer to you, in terms of knowing people, since we all inhabit the same website, that is all, and there in lies my concern for her feelings.

That doesn't negate the fact that innocent people die everyday in war, and other places in the world, like those in Myanmar. And we are right in having compassion and concern for those people.

Just my perspective and thoughts here, is what I am sharing.

Peace,
Amanda

------------------
The truth is ... everything counts. Everything. Everything we do and everything we say. Everything helps or hurts; everything adds to or takes away from someone else. ~ Countee Cullen

We are weaving character every day, and the way to weave the best character is to be kind and to be useful. Think right, act right; it is what we think and do that makes us who we are. ~ Elbert Hubbard

posted May 10, 2008 11:16 PM            

quote:

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You can't see any reason why Eleanore and others might be upset with you at all?

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He gets upset by anyone who sees through his god complex...

posted May 11, 2008 01:10 AM            

quote:

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WHITE HOUSE SEND OFF - Members of the Wounded Warrior Project's Soldier Ride ride along the South Lawn drive at the White House April 24, 2008, during the kick off of the annual "Soldier Ride: White House to Lighthouse Challenge" bike ride. White House photo by Joyce N. Boghosian

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About Soldier Ride

The Wounded Warrior Project Soldier Ride is a rehabilitative cycling program for wounded warriors. For many of these combat-wounded veterans, Soldier Ride provides the first steps in the return to an active lifestyle.

Many of these men and women have been physically active throughout their lives. Soldier Ride offers these brave individuals the chance to get on a bike and prove to themselves "I can still do this." Soldier Ride is not about politics; it's not about the war. It's simply about the soldiers.

posted May 11, 2008 03:49 AM              

quote:

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Can you not see how disheartening it would be for Eleanore, and others who have spouses in the military for you to do what you did? Can you not understand their sadness at your actions?

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It's not these people who are at fault, but the governments they trusted who led them and misled them.

There are many more soldiers who's hearts are in the right place, than the few who have been guilty of the war crimes.

*Edited* to add:

posted May 11, 2008 04:12 AM              

quote:

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Got into a fight with yet another @$$hole in my school who kept referring to soldiers and police officers as evil pigs

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