posted May 23, 2007 11:14 AM            

quote:

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Do you believe you are a lost cause?

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That is the question.

"I beg you... to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without ever noticing it, live your way into the answer... Let life happen to you. Believe me: life is in the right, always."

posted May 23, 2007 12:04 PM            

You are strong
and this too shall pass
and if you get sick of the demons -
close the portal.

There's nothing wrong with doing a little camping to regain your strength and your roots to the physical plane. It gets wild and crazy floating around out there, especially when low energies are messing with you. Close the portal and repeat over and over that you will only listen to the Highest and Purest energy.

You HAVE GOT THIS.
Do you hear me?
YOU HAVE ALREADY GOT THIS.

posted May 23, 2007 01:28 PM            

I re-wrote the above^ for you:

I am mellow, my life is full of abundance, I take pride in my accomplishments, I go with the flow and take action when inspired. I am human, take care of myself as it is my impulse to do, and I temper my compassion for others with compassion for myself. I am sensitive, humble, and often altruistic, yet I also have the ability to stand my ground and protect what I champion.

posted May 23, 2007 06:40 PM            

You can help me write my spiritual resume any time.

Thank you, Melody.

currently reading:
The Spiritual Life - by Annie Besant
Opening to Channel - by Sanaya Roman and [some other dude]

currently listening to:
"Lady Fingers" - Lucious Jackson

posted May 24, 2007 12:16 AM            

Thanks for sharing!!!

The truth sounds good, and real.

posted May 27, 2007 03:58 AM              

I have a communication for you,

Peace Heart Shaped Cross,

I am not sure if your petition has brought about a blessing or a curse, and they may both be same thing in end eh? But let us not remain cryptic and move on to more fertile, fruitful trends of speech.

First, we should comment on your manners. Since you claim a certain liking for Hezrat Molana (Rumi), you should understand that, in Sufism, “adab” or “manners” is the foundation of all great learning and teaching. Nothing is transmitted between and among those who do not understand and/or respect “adab”. Therefore I am not entirely sure this missive will find an audience with you. You do not respect the limits of your age nor your spiritual station. The latter can be overlooked since you are not expected to know such a thing, the former however is less likely to be excused. Respect for an Elder in age or wisdom is a prerequisite to learning. Unless you have determined that you have nothing left to learn? In that case, this missive will indeed fall on deaf ears.

If you have read the entirety of Hezrat Molana’s writings and expositions, you would understand several things. First, Necessitarianism is completely forbidden. In the Masnavi, there is not a single instance where a Necessitarian does NOT meet a nasty end or an unpleasant circumstance. Your example of the thief is relevant here. To argue Necessitarianism is the highest violation of adab. In fact, it is identical to Satan’s argument when he refused to prostrate to man as Allah ordered. I assume you know this tradition as well? So, how can one justify an alignment with Satan? An agreement with Satan? In what way can one rationalize or intellectualize agreement with the archetypal enemy of man? I hope you are inclined to address these questions.

The quote you so casually threw out to Ms. Juniperb, “Enough, for the veil of speech has begun to spin a curtain around you” was misused and inappropriate. Let us quote the entire poem and comment properly:

The bird of my heart has again begun to flutter, the parrot of my soul has begun to chew sugar.
My mad and drunken camel has begun to rend the chain of reason.

A gulp of that incautious wine has begun to flow over my head and eyes.

The lion of the gaze, despite the dog of the Companions of the Cave, has begun to drink my blood again.

The water is flowing again in this river; by the riverbank the grass has begun to shoot.

The dawn breeze is blowing again in the garden, it has begun to blow over rose and rosebed.*

Love sold me for a single fault; Love’s heart burned, and has begun to buy back.

He drove me away; compassion came to him and called; Love has begun to look kindly upon me.

My enemy has seen that I am with the Friend; he has begun to gnaw his hand of envy.

My heart has escaped from the trickery of fortune, it has begun to creep into Love’s bosom.

The tale-bearer brow making hints has begun to curve over that eye.

When Love called my heart towards Him, my heart began to flee from all creation.

Creatures are sticks; the blind man flings away the stick when he begins to see.

Creatures are like milk; the infant turns from milk when it has begun to digest viands.

The spirit is like a falcon taking wing, for it has begun to hear the drum of the king.

Enough, for the veil of speech has begun to spin a curtain around you

posted May 27, 2007 04:00 AM              

Moving on…

You said to Ms. Juniperb “You have said it, but you have not understood.” And also “I agree, the poem you quoted would seem quite clear, taken on its own. However, when you have even a casual acquaintance with Rumi, it becomes necessary to reconcile a rare poem like the one you managed to dig up with more characteristic poems, like the following”…etc etc.

Some information is perhaps in order here. Ms. Juniperb has been studying the writings of Hezrat Molana (Rumi) for well on two years now. She has also been actively engaged in the writings of other saints such as Ibn Al Arabi, the Greatest Shaykh and Shaykh Jilani, the Rose of Baghdad , Master of States and Stations. Of course this is in addition to her work with the cross application of Mystical teaching in the canonical Holy Bible as well as the non canon writings in the Gnostic Gospels. At some point, I expect her to move toward an interest in the science of the Kabbalah and the reconciliation of that particular system as well as far eastern systems. But that is for the future.

Now, how on earth a young pup such as yourself has the audacity to say to such a senior student “you have not understood” and accuse her of not even the most CASUAL acquaintance with Rumi almost brought me to a full howl of laughter LOL LOL.

Moving on yet again…

These poems you quote:

The Divine Factory
The Worker is hidden in the workshop:
enter the workshop and behold Him!
Inasmuch as the work has woven a veil over the Worker,
you cannot see Him outside of His work.
The Worker dwells in the workshop:
none who stays outside is aware of Him.
Come, then, into the workshop of Not-being,
that you may contemplate the work and the Worker together.
Pharaoh set his face towards material existence;
therefore he was blind to God's workshop
And wished to alter and avert that which was eternally ordained.

"Do you think I know what I'm doing?
That for one breath or half-breath I belong to myself?
As much as a pen knows what it's writing,
or the ball can guess where it's going next."
"The Unseen Power
We are the flute, our music is all Thine;
We are the mountain echoing only Thee;
Pieces of chess Thou marshallest in line
And movest to defeat or victory;
Lions emblazoned high on flags unfurled
Thy wind invisible sweeps us through the world."
These poems are all written by Hezrat Molana in a STATE OF NON BEING. A Divine State in which the self has ceased to impose on the soul. Said differently, this is a recital of the pure soul without the interference of the self.

My dear, your self is self-evidently present. Unmistakably present. I would venture to say that you have not even a casual acquaintance with “your self”. Just as you cannot see the Worker (Soul/God) in the workshop (self/nafs/ego), you cannot see the workshop (self) itself. If you have seen the workshop (self), then you have seen the Worker (soul).

Of course this is one of the first layers of interpretation. Each writing by a Sufi master has seven levels of meaning. And each successive layer cannot be unlocked until the seeker has passed through certain experiences. Then we are beyond this stage of dialog and….. Enough, for the veil of speech has begun to spin a curtain around you…

Now for some final comments to your notes:

You said: “Can the man who wrote the former be the same who wrote the latter? The problem is easy enough to reconcile when we look closely at the wording of the poems.”

Mystics have been studying Hezrat Molana for over 800 years. Few have found “reconciliation” in his writings. Those who have reconciled his words and wording are those who have “attained”…i.e. those who have ascended to the Station of a Master. The rest of us are simply working on our “selves” in the hopes that one day we too shall attain.

You said: “When Rumi speaks of God as the Doer of all things, he is speaking of an objective truth, which exists independently of our relationship to it.”

Incorrect. God is the objective Truth and (S)He does not exist independently of our relationship to Him/Her, just as we do not exist independently of each other.

You said: “In the poem you cited, when he speaks of necessitarianism and Free Will, as such, he speaks of man's subjective relation to God.”

Man has a subjective relationship with himself, or shall we say “selves”. Man has an objective relationship with God, but that relationship is veiled to him and so man confuses the subjective and the objective and enters into confusion.

You said: “He speaks of what is fitting, not of what is true.”

Incorrect. For Hezrat Molana, there is no difference between what is fitting and what is true. You are in duality, he is not.

You said: “Rumi is speaking here of the balance that must be maintained when we come into possession of this kind of transcendent wisdom.”

Incorrect. On a scale of 1-10, 5 is the balance of that line. When one comes into possession of Hezrat Molana’s kind of transcendent wisdom, one is no longer on the line. However, since everyone else still operates FROM the line, they (i.e. the observers/other people) interpret what they see and hear as “balance”. If one has never been off the line of duality, it is impossible to conceive of the State that transcends balance.

You said: “Still, we must honor the insights of necessitarianism, and balance them with our conduct in the world.”

Incorrect. In the story you mention, the thief is beat for his poor adab (necessitarianism). In the story of the Lion and the Hare, the Lion is killed for his poor adab (necessitarianism). Death and maiming in the world certainly implies a lack of balance eh?

Finally, guard against an assumption. There were issues and poems that you raised and discussed that I did not address. Because I did not address them does not mean that you were/are correct or that you understood anything clearly. If I were to address every distortion of your understanding, I would be here the rest of the afternoon. Past a certain point, one will either see the error of ones ways and engage in correction, or one will not. If the latter is the case, no words in heaven, earth, by Saint or God will shake him from his error. Inshahallah you will not be thus.

posted May 27, 2007 12:42 PM            

I have answers for you. Some of your objections deserve a thoughtful response, and some of them are just blind fault-seeking and/or semantic misinterpretations. I am not inclined to answer you now, but I will soon.

In the meantime, I just want to make clear that I am not a Sufi. I do not claim to be a Sufi, or to align my own understanding with every single traditional Sufi teaching or belief. Supposing that I am in error every time my own understanding deviates from the traditional teachings would be a mistake.

I will respond more thoroughly soon.

And, yes, I am audacious.

I am an irreverent Uranian,
and I dont care how old you are.

hsc

posted May 27, 2007 10:17 PM              

Tragic rabbit, a painting.
The caked ears green like rolled corn.
The black forehead pointing at the stars.
A painting on my wall, alone

as rabbits are
and aren't. Fat red cheek,
all Art, trembling nose,
a habit hard to break as not.

You too can be a tragic rabbit; green and red
your back, blue your manly little chest.
But if you're ever goaded into being one
beware the True Flesh, it

will knock you off your tragic horse
and break your tragic colors like a ghost
breaks marble; your wounds will heal
so quickly water

will be jealous.
Rabbits on white paper painted
outgrow all charms against their breeding wild;
and their rolled corn ears become horns.

So watch out if the tragic life feels fine -
caught in that rabbit trap
all colors look like sunlight's swords,
and scissors like The Living Lord.

posted May 28, 2007 12:47 PM            

Why do you talk to me that way?

Who could teach me anything?
How about Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Emerson, Seneca, etc... ?
How about everyone I meet?
Everyone teaches me something.
I admit I'm wrong so often, its really ridiculous
to be told that I cannot admit when I'm wrong.

I know everything?
No, TINK.
I claim to know one thing.
My mind is unchanged on this one thing.
So is yours.
We just see it differently.
You assume that my unwillingness to change
is on account of my arrogance and obstinacy.
I am arrogant and obstinate, as I've admitted many times,
and I can see how you would make that assumption.
But that is not the reason that I hold firm on this matter.
I hold firm because determinism is backed by logic and experience.

I called myself a Prophet partly in jest,
knowing that people (like you, i guess) cannot resist taking me down a peg,
if ever I bounce too high for their tastes.
And, yes, I think I have a message.
A message that is so important,
and which would change the world so drastically,
it can only be called prophetic.
But does that mean i think i am a sage
or that i know everything?
No. I know one thing.
In addition to that I possess keen psychological insight,
and a very strong talent for abstract thinking -
not the rarest things in the world,
but enough to pride myself on a little,
and to feel confident in my calling as a teacher of sorts.

quote:

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lonely teacher.. unappreciated and unloved.

---

Your rare compassion warms my heart. Thank you.

quote:

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You are unteachable

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That's a nasty thing to say, if ever I heard one.

Incidentally, its always been the surest sign of a poor teacher,
to blame the student.

hsc

posted May 28, 2007 03:18 PM            

I have ears and I do hear . You want HSC`s best interests served,yes?

They are being Served as he stepped up and made statements in err and now is given the golden opportunity to Know Hezrat Molana (Rumi) a little better.

Let us give him the quietude necessary to gain Clarity on orchidspirit~s post and God willing, he can then support his gospel .

Peace,

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted May 28, 2007 04:57 PM            

Yes, I do. I think your friend could have posted a thread titled "Rumi", offered his knowledge, and Steve would have opened it, and read it, and learned what there was to be learned from it. If HSC would have challenged orchidspirit and a debate would have ensued, I would have sat back and read and learned. This is not what happened. If orchidspirit would have debated the orginal "gospel" of HSC, I would have also been interested and sat back to listen and learn. That is not what happened.
Steve will answer if and when the time is right (seems that is what he said) but what I object to is others challenging him to a duel when they perceive he is weakest. If that continues to happen then I will just continue to stand near and "sprinkle the healing dust on him" until he is at full strength.
Then once again, I will be happy to sit back and enjoy the battle.

Peace, Juniperb, I hope you continue to understand that my sadness and annoyance at this situation is accumulated over many, MANY similar situations and I honestly become more and more astounded at the vicious behavior. It really saddens me to see it here over and over, among people I do consider to be enlightened... It might be because of people sticking to their area and not seeing what goes on in other areas, but this started in Universal at least 2, maybe 3 months ago, went to FFA, then back here, then back to FFA, and now here again. It seems that not even a week goes by before someone yanks a thread back up and starts in again. He NEVER has time to regain clarity.
Here anyway.
Which is sad.

posted May 29, 2007 12:52 PM              

It would have been completely unwise of me to start a thread entitled "Rumi" and give my opinions, as I have none to give and am vastly under qualified for such a role.

I stated in my post that I had a communication for HSC, I did not at all state that the words were mine. The communication came from my Teacher in response to HSC's perception of Juniperb.

As I understand things, poetry such as that which Rumi created is very often interpreted in many different ways depending upon the individuals understanding and stage of growth.

As you stated "Peace, Juniperb, I hope you continue to understand that my sadness and annoyance at this situation is accumulated over many, MANY similar situations and I honestly become more and more astounded at the vicious behavior. It really saddens me to see it here over and over, among people I do consider to be enlightened... " I agree with you wholeheartedly...however, I assume you perceive HSC to be enlightened? If he is so surely it is wrong for him to not use manners and courtesy to his fellow travellers and say that they have no understanding of the things he has, when surely this is all a matter of perception, view point and stage of growth?

I admire the stance you take at the side of HSC good friends are hard to find.

Finally.....I am female, and my teacher is female,maybe the strength of her words led you to believe otherwise?

posted May 29, 2007 04:52 PM            

quote:

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It would have been completely unwise of me to start a thread entitled "Rumi" and give my opinions, as I have none to give and am vastly under qualified for such a role.

---

If you have so little confidence in your own judgement that you will not dare to form your own opinions, how can you trust your judgement about whose opinions to listen to?

quote:

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I am not entirely sure this missive will find an audience with you. You do not respect the limits of your age nor your spiritual station.

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No, I do not. Like Rumi, I am neither young nor old, advanced nor just beginning my quest. I am too many things to be any one of these. I am open to the voice of spirit, same as you. Not always, but sometimes. And I speak from where I stand. I can do nothing else. I have lived 28 years in this body. It is not an old body, but can you tell the age of my soul? Has there ever been an old soul born into an old body? I've always felt I understood certain things, and I've always been drawn to a spiritual side of life which most people (especially people who, like me, were not born into a religious family) do not encounter, or encounter only when they are past the prime of life, and finally turning away from other things. I never had to get tired of other things. They never interested me much, so, I figure, I must have done some work before to remember it so early in this lifetime. In any case, physical age is a relatively arbitrary marker. I will trust my understanding, when it tells me who to listen to and who not to listen to, and especially when it tells me to listen to myself. Whether it is right or wrong, I will follow my own lights, no matter how many times you and your books tell me I ought to ignore the brain God has given me, and slavishly surrender in all things to you and your interpretation, or your teacher's interpretation, or your teacher's teacher's (this is starting to sound like a game of "telephone") interpretation of Hezrat Molana. I will continue to have my own opinions.

quote:

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The latter can be overlooked since you are not expected to know such a thing, the former however is less likely to be excused. Respect for an Elder in age or wisdom is a prerequisite to learning. Unless you have determined that you have nothing left to learn? In that case, this missive will indeed fall on deaf ears.

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I was raised in a culture in which the "elders" were almost entirely unintelligent, immmoral, and short-sighted fools. It has not taught me to respect age. On the contrary, I find that experience prejudices people as often as it educates them. At least, that's been my experience. I do indeed have much to learn. Whether I may learn it from you has yet to be seen. I'm sorry, but, I cannot just accept your teaching on the basis of your age alone.

quote:

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If you have read the entirety of Hezrat Molana’s writings and expositions, you would understand several things. First, Necessitarianism is completely forbidden. In the Masnavi, there is not a single instance where a Necessitarian does NOT meet a nasty end or an unpleasant circumstance. Your example of the thief is relevant here. To argue Necessitarianism is the highest violation of adab. In fact, it is identical to Satan’s argument when he refused to prostrate to man as Allah ordered. I assume you know this tradition as well? So, how can one justify an alignment with Satan? An agreement with Satan? In what way can one rationalize or intellectualize agreement with the archetypal enemy of man? I hope you are inclined to address these questions.

---

I have not read, or claimed to have read, all of Rumi. I would be very surprised to learn that you are correct. I would have to inquire dilligently into what the proper definition of a Necessitarian was in his time. I find that names like this, taken by a religious sect to distinguish itself, are often misleading. When I speak of necessitarianism, I am only speaking of a natural law of interconnection, which is as true on the Self level, as it is on the Soul level, but we cannot see it. When this term, more philosophical than religious, is applied to a denomination of religious devotees, I have to wonder what else they stand for. As I see it, if these people are falling into pits and meeting bad ends, it has more to do with their behavior than with their belief in determinism/necessitarianism. What is their behavior in the story? Does it reflect what I am talking about or not? If not, it is not the necessitarianism I speak of (and Rumi knows what I'm talking about). From my understanding of this law, flows my compassion and willingness to be patient with others, and to make an effort to see things from their point of view. As yet, I have not fallen into the mouth of any lions. Isn't this willingness to see from, and appreciate the relevance of, the perspectives of men really what Satan was rejecting? Just as so many proponents of free will reject the testimony of others on account of the fact that they are too proud to step out of their own shoes, and admit that the perspective of another person, whether it is based in truth or illusion, is real to that person, and ought to be acknowledged as a legitimate reason (and not an "excuse") for his or her condition. To admit that, even if men are wrong, and cannot apprehend God's design, still, their perspectives have relevence for them, and ought not to be dismissed merely because they do not accord with some higher teaching, - this is, I think, what Satan was asked to do. And it is more in line with what I am asking of you, as well, than with what you ask of me.

quote:

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The quote you so casually threw out to Ms. Juniperb, “Enough, for the veil of speech has begun to spin a curtain around you” was misused and inappropriate. Let us quote the entire poem and comment properly:

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Reading the poem over, I only see again what I saw in it before. Rumi is saying what I am saying, although, i think it would be a mistake to suppose that there is a single theme in this poem. It is more meandering. But he says what I say. Passion overthrows reason, and, with it, your so-called free will. A process happens, which is bigger than him, as the spring is bigger than the rose of which he speaks. This is the springtime of his heart. And in the name of that love which unites all things, he flees all of creation; all the things we seem to see, and divide, separate, categorize, all the divisions we see. From the creatures, he turns to the unifying creator. (No, it is not satanic.) Not regarding men's claims of autonomy and free will, he percieves the underlying connections that tie them to the whole, and determine their place. This is how I interpret it. I could be wrong, but, you know what? I think you are.

quote:

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The one who can say the words written above is one who has transcended the lower forms of emotion and intellect.

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posted May 29, 2007 04:55 PM            

quote:

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Furthermore, the poem is written to the self, not to an external or outside audience. Thus, the enemy is the self, the creatures are the false selves and, as you can see, there are two “loves”, a false love that sells for a single fault, and a real love that redeems (buys back). To reiterate, this poem is not written to an external audience. It is written from the soul to the self, from the divine to the carnal. All the great mystics are writing to themselves, that is one secret to interpreting their words and actions.

---

He is not really speaking of two loves, just as we are not speaking of two different people, when we speak of the perspective of a foolish boy, and the perspective of the wise man he later became. He is speaking of a divine Law which unites those "two" loves. God's law. First, there is love in its conditional form. It wants you perfect. It sees a flaw, and it no longer loves you. But, another love does not come along to take its place. Read the poem. Love sold me, but Love's heart burned and began to buy back. It is the same Love. It is a living Love (as God is a living God); it grows. Those faults which could not inspire devotion before, now inspire compassion, and Love's love is renewed. This is like the story of Satan, too. With Love cast in the role of Satan and Redeemer, both. At first, love is too proud to give itself to a flawed being. But, the realization is that, because a man is flawed, and, - this is key, - because he is not inherently the source of his own flawed nature, he arouses compassion. If we saw him as responsible for and deserving of his condition, how could we feel compassion? Rather, we see that these flaws are just an outer form, a shell, concealing an inner man, who is perfect, and not responsible for the vicissitudes of matter, in which he is bound.

quote:

---

You said to Ms. Juniperb “You have said it, but you have not understood.” And also “I agree, the poem you quoted would seem quite clear, taken on its own. However, when you have even a casual acquaintance with Rumi, it becomes necessary to reconcile a rare poem like the one you managed to dig up with more characteristic poems, like the following”…etc etc. Some information is perhaps in order here. Ms. Juniperb has been studying the writings of Hezrat Molana (Rumi) for well on two years now. She has also been actively engaged in the writings of other saints such as Ibn Al Arabi, the Greatest Shaykh and Shaykh Jilani, the Rose of Baghdad , Master of States and Stations.

---

posted May 29, 2007 04:56 PM            

quote:

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Of course this is in addition to her work with the cross application of Mystical teaching in the canonical Holy Bible as well as the non canon writings in the Gnostic Gospels. At some point, I expect her to move toward an interest in the science of the Kabbalah and the reconciliation of that particular system as well as far eastern systems. But that is for the future.

---

She will find the same themes of Oneness and Emination in the Kabbalah. She will find the systems of the Far East even more emphatic about this Oneness and Interpenetration of all life. Will she understand them, or misinterpret them as she has apparently misinterpreted the rest, I wonder? It seems to me, the error is at the root of her understanding, and, by grafting all these teachings onto her branches, she does as little for them as they do for her. If she has misunderstood what is being said on as fundamental a level as this, all her subsequent conclusions must be tainted, if not entirely misguided. This is my belief, and I have spoken it so you can hear. Judge me if you feel you must. I still think that not everyone who disagrees with you on this matter, and does so in no uncertain terms, is acting out of pure arrogance and willful ignorance.

quote:

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Now, how on earth a young pup such as yourself has the audacity to say to such a senior student “you have not understood” and accuse her of not even the most CASUAL acquaintance with Rumi almost brought me to a full howl of laughter LOL LOL.

---

That is unfortunate. It's unfortuneate that you put so much stock in age. You do not even seem to recognize the fact that an old soul may exist in a young body, or vice versa. I think you are stimied in your conservate ivory tower. Perhaps you feel you have little to pride yourself on besides your age, so you exaggerate its importance, or perhaps you have other unconscious reasons for holding this absurd reverence for age (a hard aspect between Jupiter and Saturn, or Pluto and Saturn, perhaps?). I don't know. All I know is that I have heard wisdom from the mouths of babes, and seen children lead the way. And I have seen many many "elders" who had only grown more crooked, confused, and convinced in their backwards ways as time wore on. Such is life.

quote:

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These poems you quote... These poems are all written by Hezrat Molana in a STATE OF NON BEING. A Divine State in which the self has ceased to impose on the soul. Said differently, this is a recital of the pure soul without the interference of the self.

---

posted May 29, 2007 04:58 PM            

quote:

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My dear, your self is self-evidently present. Unmistakably present. I would venture to say that you have not even a casual acquaintance with “your self”. Just as you cannot see the Worker (Soul/God) in the workshop (self/nafs/ego), you cannot see the workshop (self) itself. If you have seen the workshop (self), then you have seen the Worker (soul).

---

I have trouble understanding what it is you see in these words, because, as I have understood them, they might have been spoken by me, but they would be saying something very different from what you wish them to be saying. I have said that there is no free will. I am a creation of the Worker (God, Spirit). Both my self and my soul are created, and only God, Spirit, creates and is unmanifest, or, manifest only in creation. This world is, as you say, the workshop (that, too, the work of the Lord). Everything is the work of the God. Have you understood this? Or will you dismiss it as just another glimpse of the perspective of a soul immersed in nonbeing, utterly divested from, and unapplicable to the life of your limited, worldly self?

quote:

---

Of course this is one of the first layers of interpretation. Each writing by a Sufi master has seven levels of meaning. And each successive layer cannot be unlocked until the seeker has passed through certain experiences. Then we are beyond this stage of dialog and….. Enough, for the veil of speech has begun to spin a curtain around you…

---

I agree, there is a realm of truth into which thoughts (and words) cannot pass, for it is purely nondual. But I see that realm suggested by the thoughts and words I have expressed, as many fingers point the way to one direction (which is no direction, all directions - hence, the inadequacy of words to conceive an analogy for that which is analogous to nothing), while it seems you are attempting to refute this with yours, pointing only to the scrap of earth beneath your own two feet, and saying, "Mine".

quote:

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Mystics have been studying Hezrat Molana for over 800 years. Few have found “reconciliation” in his writings. Those who have reconciled his words and wording are those who have “attained”…i.e. those who have ascended to the Station of a Master. The rest of us are simply working on our “selves” in the hopes that one day we too shall attain.

---

posted May 29, 2007 04:58 PM            

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You said: “When Rumi speaks of God as the Doer of all things, he is speaking of an objective truth, which exists independently of our relationship to it.” Incorrect. God is the objective Truth and (S)He does not exist independently of our relationship to Him/Her, just as we do not exist independently of each other.

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I think maybe you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying that God-As-Doer exists independently, but, that, as you quoted me, the truth of God-As-Doer exists, independently of us (i.e. whether we agree with it or not). When you say that God is that truth, you intrigue and confuse me. I would like to know what you mean by that. You say God is the objective truth. I would say God is the objective reality. Perhaps we are saying the same thing, although, it seems to me that "truth", classically understood, has always been defined as the chief principle or condition of reality, and not as reality itself. But, perhaps, this is a subtle distinction best left to the linguists? In any case, your conclusion that we are not independent of God, or of eachother, is precisely the crux of my argument against free will or independent agency. That you do not see this is a great mystery to me.

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You said: “In the poem you cited, when he speaks of necessitarianism and Free Will, as such, he speaks of man's subjective relation to God.” Man has a subjective relationship with himself, or shall we say “selves”. Man has an objective relationship with God, but that relationship is veiled to him and so man confuses the subjective and the objective and enters into confusion.

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Man has one relationship with God, and it is both subjective and objective, depending on your perspective. The objective is that relationship seen from a universal perspective, and the subjective is that relationship seen from "a man's eye view". It is my understanding that the confusion you allude to is precisely that state which you yourself are in, when, by your own admission, you cannot reconcile the subjective and objective poems of Hezrat Molana, and then suggest to me that our relationship to God cannot be both objective and subjective.

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You said: “He speaks of what is fitting, not of what is true.” Incorrect. For Hezrat Molana, there is no difference between what is fitting and what is true. You are in duality, he is not.

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posted May 29, 2007 04:59 PM            

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You said: “Rumi is speaking here of the balance that must be maintained when we come into possession of this kind of transcendent wisdom.” Incorrect. On a scale of 1-10, 5 is the balance of that line. When one comes into possession of Hezrat Molana’s kind of transcendent wisdom, one is no longer on the line. However, since everyone else still operates FROM the line, they (i.e. the observers/other people) interpret what they see and hear as “balance”. If one has never been off the line of duality, it is impossible to conceive of the State that transcends balance.

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I wasnt talking about enlightenment. I am aware that words like "balance" (or any other words) are inadequate to convey the state of being (or nonbeing) that enlightenment suggests. I was not referring to an enlightened state of mind, which knows intuitively that all is reconciled, and at the deepest levels (where it informs the intuition) has no inclination to reconcile transcendant truth and being in the world, for it simply "is". I was speaking of wisdom, but not THE absolute wisdom, which neither you nor I can speak of. I was speaking of an insight which transcends the subjective view, and which must then be reconciled by an aspirant with life in the world. I was not referring to a state of being by which an enlightened person foregoes having to reconcile anything with anything. By the time you reach Rumi's awareness, there truly is nothing that must or can be balanced.

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You said: “Still, we must honor the insights of necessitarianism, and balance them with our conduct in the world.” Incorrect. In the story you mention, the thief is beat for his poor adab (necessitarianism). In the story of the Lion and the Hare, the Lion is killed for his poor adab (necessitarianism). Death and maiming in the world certainly implies a lack of balance eh?

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