posted August 09, 2006 03:47 PM         

You can drop anything you want. And I can discuss anything I want. You are free not to discuss lotus-related drama with me, and anything else you do not feel comfortable discussing. I will respect your decision, and not try to bait you. However, I think the following has reference to me. Feel free to disregard it, if it does not, or, if you are not inclined to discuss these things further. I am rather fixed by nature, and have faith that, if we persevere just a little further, maybe, we can reach the heart of the matter, and find some REAL common ground, without simply marking off our territory, and "agreeing to disagree".

In response to Mirandee,
you wrote:

You are Christian. I am not.
You do not believe in reincarnation, yet I do.
We have other differences.
But we are respectful of each other.
You do not preach at or condemn me, nor I you.

Normally, I would stay out of it, but, this is a public forum, and I am pretty sure that you are using words like "preach" and "condemn" to refer to me, and not just lotus. If I am mistaken, pay no mind, but, if I am correct, please, allow me to make my defense. In appreciation for the time it would take you to read my reply, I promise to support my case with actual arguments, and not just content myself with taking a defensive, offended posture, pointing my finger, and accusing you of judging me.

First of all, I understand how the word "preach" got such a bad reputation. But it is not the preaching that is bad, it is the condemning. Preaching is nothing more that teaching about things that really matter (God, morality, etc.). You are not a captive audience. If you are not interested in what I have to say, dont read my "preaching". That's fine with me. I am not condemning anybody. When I say "You are wrong," I am saying nothing different than what you are saying, when you say, "I do not believe that to be the case,". The only difference, is you are disguising the fact that you believe the Christian view of the universe is incorrect (i.e. wrong), and that reincarnation is part of a correct (i.e. right) view of the universe. This is simple semantics. Are we so terrified of standing up and declaring our beliefs in clear language? You think reincarnation exists. How can you suggest that someone is not wrong to believe that reincarnation does not exist. Do you think that, by "wrong", you would be calling them "evil", and, therefore, condeming them? Because this is not what "wrong" means (this is what "evil" means), and, in how i have made use of the word, I think I have been abbundantly clear in expressing that I do not condemn or judge a person, simply because I believe they are wrong (i.e. incorrect, misinformed, etc.).

Also, if someone does not wish to discuss this, just say so, and I will respect your wishes. But do not expect me to discuss this while "respectfully" denying the fact that I think I am right, and that we cannot both be right.

Seriously,
WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL?

Can we really not say to a person "You are uninformed," without them seeing it as a condemnation? Can we really not offer reasons in support of our convictions, without people accusing us of "preaching"? If someone said, "A circle is a 90' angle", I would say, "Sorry, but you are mistaken," and then I would proceed to explain the nature of a cirle to them. Do you REALLY agree that an appropriate response to me ought to be, "Don't condemn me!!! You preachy judge!"???

I am totally confused.
I feel like I am in the twighlight zone.

Yes, of course, how silly of me. A belief in reincarnation is absolutely compatible with a belief in not-reincarnation. Both are right. Neither is wrong. Nothing is ever wrong. Whatever you think is right. And if I disagree with you, I am also right. And nobody's feelings are hurt. Wow, how wonderful, how utopian! It is so clear to me now. Thank you, girls!

still loving you,
but, if you dont mind,
I reserve the right to think
that you are misinformed,
and more than a little bit confused, -
and, just so you know where I stand,
I will never pretend to think otherwise.

HSC

posted August 09, 2006 04:47 PM         

It hasn't meant that I didn't want to discuss beliefs...yours and mine~everyones. I love that kind of thing~ think you know that. And, I understand well the feeling that your truth might possibly be revolutionary in a sense and hope to share it. I believe (at the present moment, sifting, sorting, never set in stone) in an evolving, rather than entirely omnipotent God. In all my readings thus far, I have found no religious/spiritual doctrine to support my theories. (anyone, please tell me if there is...would love to hear if so)

It goes entirely against rational/logical thought, and more on intuitive/abstract collective observations of science integrated with spirituality. I don't know how I could begin to 'prove' I am right (and have no interest really in proving anything~not sure that faith is a thing which should or could be proven), or present an intellectual/rational defense to my theories, since they defy logical argument entirely. But I would surely hope to discuss it sometime.

posted August 09, 2006 05:03 PM         

Well you have answered those questions yourself and I could not agree more.

>>>I dont know how this relates to the topic at hand.
Could you be more direct?

Was just illustrating how one must be by following examples set by great ones.

>>> was trying not to point the finger at any individuals, but, for the record, the reflections I shared were inspired by the relationship between Mirandee and Lotus, and not Mirandee and Fayte.

Yeah I wasn't referring to that. What I meant was why can't we respect our neighbors the way Fayte and Mirandee
has shown by their interactions with each other here at LL.

Regards,
M

posted August 09, 2006 05:11 PM         

I think their might be some misunderstandings here. What I myself (won't speak for others) have been trying to stress is that I don't believe there can be a clear boundary line drawn between right and wrong when it comes to spiritual truth. The Universe is a complex amazingly beautiful Wonder, most probably far beyond our present understanding, although it is always benefitial to try to understand as best we personally can....it is not for us to say whether it is right or wrong, but respectful to leave a question of wonder that others could be partially right in ways, as us ourselves. Isn't that what you hope of others? That they would be open to contemplate your writings? How could they truly be open/receptive if they were feeling they were right and that you were wrong?

Now, rather personally for me as a Sagittarian, I'm not hip with people instructing me and especially if they insinuate that my intelligence/understanding is not to par, I'm going to immediately feel there has been an offense to my Free right to receive what knowledge I choose to receive at my own timing, and learn from my own experience/mistakes, honestly. For me, presentation is important. If it is gentle and considerate, then I'm much more prone to listen, than if it were condensdending in any way. I think you are gentle and considerate, so don't take that personally-speaking generally--although honestly the whole right/wrong thing has me a bit turned off in some ways about discussing my philosophies further...if I didn't know that you were also an open person already, but not everyone here perhaps knows you well enough to keep that as well into account.

So, please keep writing.
And have faith other are listening even if to you it might not seem so, have faith that it will be heard just in a timely way that it is meant to be.
I believe Jesus applied most energy and attention with his doctrine to those who he knew would be humble/open/receptive. He did not go to the wealthy scholars who felt they were already right.
It is rather an extreme conclusion to assume that someone isn't strong in their beliefs, just because they respect others enough to not think them wrong in theirs. This is not paying 'lip service' or being hypocritical, flattering or weak. It is being considerate. There is a difference.
The thought of flattering for approval is yucka to me. (blech )But I do like to hope others will feel safe and comfortable enough with me to feel they can be openly themselves, and won't be judged sternly or critically in return for it. It's trusting of them to open oneself...and so I try to remain mindful of the honor they have bestowed me.

WEll, let's see if this posts.

posted August 09, 2006 06:24 PM         

quote:

---

Normally, I would stay out of it, but, this is a public forum, and I am pretty sure that you are using words like "preach" and "condemn" to refer to me, and not just lotus. If I am mistaken, pay no mind,

---

>>>>>>>>But this is odd:
you said:

quote:

---

When I say "You are wrong," I am saying nothing different than what you are saying, when you say, "I do not believe that to be the case,". The only difference, is you are disguising the fact that you believe the Christian view of the universe is incorrect (i.e. wrong), and that reincarnation is part of a correct (i.e. right) view of the universe. This is simple semantics. Are we so terrified of standing up and declaring our beliefs in clear language? You think reincarnation exists. How can you suggest that someone is not wrong to believe that reincarnation does not exist. Do you think that, by "wrong", you would be calling them "evil", and, therefore, condeming them? Because this is not what "wrong" means (this is what "evil" means), and, in how i have made use of the word, I think I have been abbundantly clear in expressing that I do not condemn or judge a person, simply because I believe they are wrong (i.e. incorrect, misinformed, etc.).

---

>>>>I am not going to state my views as 100% fact.
No more than I will state Mirandee's views as 100% fact. Nor either of our views as wrong. What would be the purpose?
Without emperical evidence the only thing I can state as fact is "there are no absolutes without complete emperical evidence".
Based on what I myself have experienced I feel that reincarnation is real. But without absolute proof it is still a theory.
And Mirandee has not had the experiences I have had in that area. How can she agree with me even on theory, without her own personal experience? Until she has such experiences to indicate to her otherwise, it is not my right to impose upon what she believes or not. I have not had her experiences in certain areas. We are not here to say who is right and who is wrong.
But it is wrong to condemn or damn someone because we differ. The same as if a person hates gay folk. Fine. Let them. But it is wrong for them to attack them or preach at them to become straight. They need to look at themselves as to why they are so afraid of the gay person that they feel hate, and must then act out that hate in violence upon ones not imposing their will on them.
When I call someone disgusting it is because they are condoning something like murder or war. Or telling others they are liars when they say they know God. Lotus called me a liar for saying that. I think a few of her views are not in my opinion right but I still feel she knows God in some capacity, in her own personal way. I would not call her a liar for saying she believes in God. But she has called me one because my idea of God differs from hers. So I am wrong and she is right. If I do not believe exactly as she does then I am a liar and dark and evil in her mind. She has said so. I have only called her negative things because of her intolerant words and actions, not her beliefs.
When I merely disagree I am not calling her a liar.
Mirandee and I have completely differing views on Jesus and the afterlife. But she does not call me a liar, nor do I call her one. Eventually God will help us sort it all out. Who are we to judge the other? God will prevail.

Call me wishy washy if you wish.

You also keep making statements and assumptions about me which are not true of me. I am not you. Please do not assume I think or react exactly as you do.

I think too Mannu brought up lying perhaps because you asked someone...indicating either myself or Lotus to lie to promote peace. A lie is not a good foundation for peace.

I refuse to lie sir, even for peace. That is a false peace.

And Mannu saying;

quote:

---

In my experience, when someone starts defending their theories, its like they have locked themselves in a house permanently.

---

>>>This is how I took it:
When someone keeps saying I am right, you are wrong, and damns and belittles and never rationalizes or validates why they feel they are right.....
They have hit their glass ceiling or firmly enclosed themselves in a rigid view which will not change in the near future. They refuse to ever see another point of view.
Oh they will defend and give many reasons, but none is logical, only highly opinionated and rigid.
Many folks against gay folk are like that. Gays are evil sinners and God should kill them. I am speaking of the completely closed minds.
They are always right and damn anyone else.

Ok..posting is glitching and after 7 times of trying to post a long one I will break it up and omit some until later.
I wonder why it is glitching?

posted August 09, 2006 06:24 PM         

Thank you all for always being straight up and honest with me and telling me when I err.
And for still wanting to still be my friends when I fall or fail or show very human weakness or any of my unpretty moods. You accept me and I accept you. You are not fairweather friends. You are real and precious.
Thank you for not buying into all I believe or say and following me like sheep. I want friends with their own minds, not a flock of mindless sheepies.
You are treasures beyond compare to me.
Bless you all.
Love
Fayte

PS:
Mannu wrote to HSC:

quote:

---

BTW, HSC, How did you miss what Fayte wrote? She did not seek labels of true or false on her differences with Mirandee. Where did you get that from?

---

>>>>>Yeah, that is odd to me too Mannu.

posted August 09, 2006 06:47 PM         

I live my life in widening rings
which spread over earth and sky.
I may not ever complete the last one,
but that is what I will try.

I circle around God, the primordial tower,
and I circle ten thousand years long;
and I still don't know if I'm a falcon,
a storm, or an unfinished song.

- Rainer Maria Rilke (1875-1926)

posted August 09, 2006 06:52 PM         

There is no final destination.
The journey is what matters.
Each destination is only a rest stop before the next journey. Infinity/eternity, never ending are the star trails of eternity.

Transforming and growing and learning and experiencing, forever.

Just my opinion.

posted August 09, 2006 06:59 PM         

I'm sorry if I've been rude or something.

I'm so confused.

It's not easy being everybody.

posted August 09, 2006 08:50 PM         

I'm sorry if the way that I worded my post offended you, HSC. I was just being facetious because I too write long posts and I have not been able to post mine. I was in a joking way wondering why you could and I was having problems with posting anything of length. I told you once before that I love your long posts and what you have to say, HSC. I have told you in the past that you are a born writer and express yourself very, very well. I meant that and I still think that. In fact I think that your long posts at times ( they aren't all long ) are another indication of a born writer. I bet like me you talk that way too. lol You see, people like you who are born writers are afraid of omitting any pertinent details and like me, you get on a roll with your thoughts. Actually and truthfully, as you will never catch me saying anything I do not sincerely mean - I disdain false flattery - I very much enjoy reading your posts, long or otherwise. So really I was just wondering why the site would take your long posts but not mine. Zala and Lia were right about my intentions in that post.

Regarding what you said about Lotus in connection with Jesus. First of all I don't recall ever seeing in Scripture an incidence when Jesus flat out said to anyone that they do not know God and even if he did you must remember that Jesus had the beatific vision. He could see into the souls of mankind and knew well the state of their souls. Lotus is not Jesus and does not possess the beatific vision just as the rest of us don't. The beatific vision means that Jesus and God were one, totally and entirely one being. So if Jesus were to tell me that I don't know God I would take a lot of credence in what he says for that reason. When we tell each other that we are judging the relationship of the individual with God and we are judging the state of the other individuals soul which is something we cannot know as only God sees into the soul of each of us and only God knows what our relationship with him consists of.

Regarding my not believing in reincarnation and yet not chastising those who do and telling them that they are wrong, it pretty much is as Lia explained that. I do not declare that I know all truth because there is only one Absolute Truth and that is God. For me to declare that I know anything to be absolute truth is putting myself on the same level with God. There was a great Jewish theologian who spoke of Absolute Truth and he declared that God IS the ONLY Absolute Truth. Martin Burber is the name of that Jewish theologian (if my memory serves me right ) perhaps you have read some of his books. At any rate I agree with what he says. What we call our truths often can change on further investigation and further faith growth and thought.

Also, I believe in respecting the beliefs of others even if I do not hold those same beliefs. I like discussing my beliefs with people and hearing their beliefs and why they believe as they do. I believe that we all possess truth because I believe that God dwells in every human being. I also believe that my path in life is solely mine to travel in whatever way God chooses to lead me. I believe that applies to all of us. No one can travel my path. Sorry it was chosen just for me. I have to walk that path alone. No one can direct me but God. Same applies to everyone. For that reason I am not about the business of directing other people and telling them what path to take. I am not in the business of converting other people to my beliefs because only God has the abililty through Grace to convert, or change, a person. I am not about to step on God's toes when it comes to attempting to convert other people to my way of thinking. I leave the conversion ( which means change ) up to God and the individual to work out together. How did any of us come to believe what we do concerning God if it did not come from within? How did any of come to believe as we do if not for how God is working in our own lives through our own unique experiences?

I have a friend who is an Episcopalian by choice. She is a Christian who does believe in reincarnation. She seems to be able to reconcile that belief within herself and her belief of Jesus as the Christ. Logically and reasonalbly I cannot do that. She and I have had discussions on the subject and because we did respect each others beliefs we were able to do that. Does anyone want to discuss their beliefs with people who have no respect for their beliefs in exchange? At any rate we learned from each other in the process yet she still believes in reincarnation and I still don't believe in it. Just as Fayte described the way it is between she and I we give each other food for thought but that does not mean we give up our beliefs. People don't have to be the same as I am or believe the same as I do in order for them to be my friends. I also have friends who are Republicans. As long as they don't attack my political beliefs and preferences I respect theirs.

As Fayte stated, you look for a common ground with people, give them respect for who and what they are as individuals and don't try to make them into "mini-mes" you can learn a lot from each other and grow together to become better people. It's religious intolerances that is messing up the world big time now and has all throughout history. I am just not about to contribute to that futile cycle of violence and hate.

Let go and let God be God. That is how I see it.

I may think I am on the right track, at least for me, I may think I am right about certain things, but I can never once and for all be sure of that and that's why they describe it as a "journey." I know that only one thing is true and that is that there is a God. I know that from my own experience and from the trips within that Lotus claims I never take.

When I was much younger I used to think in black and white terms about religious matters and I used to think I knew everything. As my faith has grown through the years with much effort to learn more about this God who touched my life and heart and devote time in prayer and contemplation I realize that I still have much to learn and I realize that God works in our lives the most through our own unique experiences. I have learned that he also works through everyone. Even those we don't particularly like. Maybe especially those as they may have the most to teach us in the way in of learning tolerance, patience and understanding. As you all can see I am far from a finished product. I doubt I will ever be finished maybe not even in the afterlife.

posted August 09, 2006 10:22 PM         

A personal apology/explaination,
if anyone is interested:

I'm so Plutonian/Uranian. I really believe the things I say, when I say them. Within a few days, or a week, I make shifts that stagger me. I dont even have time to recover and get my bearings before I am off on another tangent, and well on my way to another abrupt directional shift. Also, my Pluto is in the 9th (squaring my ASC), and, that, along with other things (jupiter square sun and op moon, to name a couple), makes it really difficult not to be self-righteous and dogmatic. I really try. I'm really passionate, though, and I often find myself becoming the very things I am so adamantly opposed to. You'd think I would have learned by now... I don't know.

I think a lot has been going on with me, energetically, this week. I'm in a long-distance relationship, and we just spent a week full of whirl-wind romance together, then she had to go back home, and now its a long-distance thing again, and I think the shifts, and the frustration is really messing with me. I think I kind of threw myself into these postings as a means to take my mind off of missing her and worrying about the future of the relationship. I've also been detoxing somewhat and that has been creating weird imbalances as well, I think. A lot of issues are coming up lately to be dealt with.

Anyway, I hope this doesnt sound like I am not taking responsibility. As I've tried to show, I believe things happen for reasons, and, so, I hope people will be understanding of the reasons I put forward, and not chalk them up to "excuses". We are all works in progress. That is why free will doesnt make sense to me. It doesnt seem to account for our imperfections. If someone could explain to me how I could have known a few days ago what I know now, then it would do a lot to help me understand how a will can be free.

I am genuinely remorseful for the tone I have taken, and for convincing myself that I was so convinced, when, at times, I am not at all convinced, and do entertain doubts of my own. I did not mean to judge anyone, and I dont know how I could talk so much about honesty, when I know damn well there is a part of me that remains unconvinced. I think I know myself a bit better now. But, yeah, I am sorry, and I really hope I am learning from this. You all have permission (and even encouragement) to rub my nose in it, if I get too big for my britches again.

Anyway....

For the record, the latest is this:

I'm 99% sure that free will does not exist.
But that 1% is driving me crazy.
I think maybe, sometimes,
I deny that 1%, just to stay sane.
I am not good with ambiguity,
or leaving it to God.
I want to know.
Really know.

Okay,

posted August 09, 2006 11:18 PM         

Whooooo, I love that picture, Zala. It's the best yet. It says so much!!!

HSC, I understand and do not think for a moment that you are making excuses. It was a very honest and heartfelt post and I think you are wonderful for laying it all out there like that.

I wish you good luck on the detox, HSC. My oldest son went cold turkey to overcome his alcoholism so I know it is very hard. He did overcome it but he had a few set backs in the process. Hang tough.

posted August 09, 2006 11:28 PM         

On another note.
Something happened to me a few hours ago.
I experienced what can only be described as a whole body strong electrical shock. I was not touching anything but it went through me and I felt gripped in a powerful surge of electric waves.
My arms flew wide and I found myself laughing once it passed.
No, I was not high or drunk or on any meds.
I was standing, just standing in my hallway touching nothing.

Later folks!

posted August 09, 2006 11:47 PM         

I think that you were feeling the presence of God, touched by the Holy Spirit. Spirit to soul encounter. It is an estatic experience of floating and overwhelming peace and happiness that I felt but also a kind of burning or pentetrating feeling as if you were hit by a beam of some kind that penetrated from the head through the body.

Does that sound similiar to what you experienced and did you happen to be thinking of things of God or spirituality at the time it happened? Maybe about what has been discussed on this thread?

I felt that once when after years of being certain that God could not possibly forgive me for the sin I had committed, which was no minor sin but one of the kind they call a sin unto death sin, or mortal sin, I finally approached God with a true contrite heart and asked for his forgiveness. I knew instantly from that experience that I had been forgiven. But I went to confession afterwards anyway. When the priest asked me at the end do I know that God has forgiven me I said, "Oh yes, big time."