posted August 16, 2006 01:47 PM         

Thank you both!

posted August 16, 2006 03:00 PM         

Was helping PE.

PE that buddha on a rock is cool...

posted August 19, 2006 11:15 AM         

I hope you will get to see this reply from me- sorry for such a prolonged delay. In the future, I sincerely hope that I will speak with more kindness, tolerance, gentleness and patience when there are drasticly diverse views, beliefs or even some sort of confrontations. I will refrain from using the word "hijack" from now on. Also, if I got it correctly, I also learned from both your reply to me and my own later experiences that saying things as those (the ones you mentioned when you tried to analyze the situation in my lexigram thread) to anyone is really hurtful- virtually anybody would feel really bad when on the receiving end. I will also refrain from shouting to any individual here at LL. Anger precipitates more anger- what goes around, comes around. I will try to learn to speak in a more civilized manner. Thank you, HSC- otherwise I may still be oblivious about all these vices of mine.

You have specified more than once, though, that you are quite fixed in nature, so I'm not trying to change you and suggest you changing your perception- it's merely my curiosity, and perhaps some naivite? Well, I don't know, actually.

You said in one of your post here that it's not easy being everybody-

Personally, I believe it's definitely not easy being everybody; it's hard enough being myself! So being everybody would certainly be difficult for me, too. But the point is all I need to be is myself, not anybody else, and surely not everybody. Perhaps I have misunderstood what you exactly meant, but I'm just talking about what I personally think.

You also mentioned in another post here that there was 99% [of you..] that did not believe in Free Will, but the remaining 1% drove you crazy...I happen to be the opposite- I believe in Free Will, and there is...100%. Or at least my belief in Free Will is for sure not 1%- I'm not implying that I'm superior, but I'm just different. We all have our differences from others when it comes to so many things, including beliefs.

You said instead of "God is good", to you it was "God is everything". I haven't spent a significant amount of time trying to define God, but we shall see...

I noticed in another post of yours in another thread that you said "No expectations"- this reminded me of the "Conversations with God" trilogy. I read all the three books 3 years ago...

Since then, after quite a while of sorting out myself, I came to believe that there's nothing wrong with expectations. I don't have to deny that I have expectations, great or small; I don't have to repress my expectations; expectations DO exist, and in many cases, they can be a good thing.

I had been having this on my mind, which was to get back to you since I went through your reply to me and all the other posts in this thread, albeit I scanned rather than thouroughly read everything all the time. But since I found that "No expectations" in one of your other posts, and having come this far...I was going to say that all the aforementioned were just my two cents, and that I did not intend to change you into a person that's not your usual self, or someone who thinks more like me (that would be boring!)...but if you are a believer of "The Conversations with God" trilogy-

Then I suppose I finally understand why you have outlined the situations involving lotusheartone the way you have, and-

I am vehemently against "The Conversations with God" trilogy. I've been thinking about starting a thread of my own, discussing the controversial nature of the trilogy. I am staunchly opposed to "The Conversations with God" trilogy.

posted August 21, 2006 10:30 PM         

I do not know if your theory of an evolving God is true, but I share it with you, along with several other pet theories of mine, most of which may be mysteriously compatible with a God who both evolves, and is omnipotent. Imagine a small child with unlimited power. He/She would unleash incredible destruction in one moment, and boundless love in the next. He/She would contradict Him/Herself and work at cross purposes, just as we do. Our own evolution would depend on our ability to nurture, forgive, instruct, listen to, tolerate, and support the growth of this child, as He/She exists within ourselves and our fellows.

Like you, I speculate on many possibilities, and often seem to intuit the presence a great mystery, impenetrable to the intellect, which provides for the simultaneous existence of many, seemingly incompatible, divine realities.

I appreciate your comments on faith and diplomacy. They are well articulated, and I can agree with them. I have a less black and white understanding of the issue of personal belief today than I did two weeks ago. I know the manner in which we present something is extremely important. I wanted to project the confidence in my ideas which I felt at the time, and I hoped this would encourage others to listen closely. But I see that, at some point, I crossed the line into arrogance, and my "confidence" became positively overbearing, and proceeded to do far more harm to my "cause" than good. As it turned out, none of my arguments were even considered, and, instead, my tone became the sole subject of discussion. I have only myself to blame for this.

A friend remarked to me last week that her father, who was himself a teacher, was very fond of repeating the proverb, "It is a poor teacher who blames the students for their inability to learn,".

I agree with what you said about Jesus not preaching to the self-satisfied. A person who is thoroughly convinced of their position is very hard to instruct. It seems to me that, if one will not even allow the possibility that free will might not exist, I cannot expect them to listen to what I have to say, however I season my arguments. I would have no choice but to develop some subversive form of dialogue, in order to slip my ideas in through a backdoor, like the philosopher Kierkegaard felt was necessary, when he developed his "method of indirect communication". Many of the parables and double-entendres of Jesus also seem to do just that.

Perhaps this is the lesson we are meant to learn from the example of John the Baptist. For it was the Baptist who preached to the wealthy and self-satisfied, in firey sermons, "crying in the wilderness" (where few could hear him), when he told them not to be content with thinking themselves the sons of Abraham ("Know you not that God has power to raise these very stones up, and make of them sons of Abraham"). He was called a path-clearer, whose purpose it was to clear the way for the coming of the Master. And what was his fate? He was dismissed, imprisoned, and beheaded for his outspokenness in challenging the established order. Perhaps this is like the part of ourselves which seeks to impress our understanding upon others in too agressive a manner. Such a voice must find itself dismissed, locked away, and effectively destroyed. Only then can Jesus walk the earth; that is, only then can we learn to speak in a more peaceable way, which gently entreats our listeners to pay us heed, before we blind-side their most cherished beliefs with a new and uncompromising truth.

As Hamlet says:

"Forgive me this my virtue;
For in the fatness of these pursy times
Virtue itself of vice must pardon beg,
Yea, curb and woo for leave to do him good."

And I must pretend to tolerate, in others, a belief which is, to my mind, the source of the worst kind of intolerance this world has ever known. For that is what "free will" appears to be, from where I stand. An excuse for all manner of judgment and persecution. A justification for the oppression of the weak by the strong. It is the one, indefinable, supposedly equalizing, attribute, which all of us are said to possess, and which dismisses as inconsequential all concerns of inequality; it categorically denies the perfectly reasonable notion that one may have an advantage over another by means of intellectual, emotional, or logistical superiority; that this advantage is directly responsible for one's ability to choose what is best; and that this advantage is not received on account of any prior free choice (for who would freely choose to be disadvantaged!?), but, is the gift of an impartial God, who raises some of us to power, and lowers others to powerlessness, on account of reasons which may be utterly incomprehensible and unknowable to us mortals.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved,
but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then?
Is there unrighteousness with God?
God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses,
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,
that I might shew my power in thee,
and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me,
Why doth he yet find fault?
For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man,
who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour,
and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God,
willing to shew his wrath,
and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known
the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory...?

Romans 9:13-23

This is the essential import of the Gospels... That we are all in the hand of God. Those who falter, and those who excel. The living and the dead. Whether we do good or evil, we do it by the will of God, in order to enact and fullfill the greatest story ever told. Every great story needs villains. There are no heros without villains, no good without evil. That is the mystery. That we are all his children.

"And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."

- Romans 9:26

For God is a living God, an evolving God. He/She is alive, and to be alive is to be in a state of conflict; unresolved. Only dead Gods are resolved, and to be resolved is to be in the dust, no more. But to have a purpose is to have an adversary. Our adversaries are those who challenge us, and cause us to call upon, to invoke, the Lord. Were there no devils, there could be no angels. So, God is that which reigns over devils and angels (how could it be otherwise?), and the only "freedom" we have, is that we have no foreknowledge of the part we are cast to play. Shall we be wise, shall we be fools? Subject to passion or compassion? What path shall we direct our thoughts and feet upon? That which leads unto devils, or angels?

Let us go to the angels, if God wills it, but, let us not look down upon those whose role it is, in the divine plan, to truck with devils. For they are also obedient to His/Her will, and no less so than ourselves.

Perhaps we shall all be angels in the end.

Not in our time, but in God's.

Love to you,
HSC

posted August 21, 2006 10:36 PM         

And, thank you for your thoughtful response,
D For Defiant.
I will respond soon.

posted August 22, 2006 04:42 AM         

Thanks for your posts. I've found the following quotes of yours good food for thought-

-It is a poor teacher who blames the students for their inability to learn,".

On John the Baptist:
-...And what was his fate? He was dismissed, imprisoned, and beheaded for his outspokenness in challenging the established order. Perhaps this is like the part of ourselves which seeks to impress our understanding upon others in too agressive a manner. Such a voice must find itself dismissed, locked away, and effectively destroyed. Only then can Jesus walk the earth; that is, only then can we learn to speak in a more peaceable way, which gently entreats our listeners to pay us heed, before we blind-side their most cherished beliefs with a new and uncompromising truth.

-And I must pretend to tolerate, in others, a belief which is, to my mind, the source of the worst kind of intolerance this world has ever known. For that is what "free will" appears to be, from where I stand. An excuse for all manner of judgment and persecution. A justification for the oppression of the weak by the strong. It is the one, indefinable, supposedly equalizing, attribute, which all of us are said to possess, and which dismisses as inconsequential all concerns of inequality; it categorically denies the perfectly reasonable notion that one may have an advantage over another by means of intellectual, emotional, or logistical superiority; that this advantage is directly responsible for one's ability to choose what is best; and that this advantage is not received on account of any prior free choice (for who would freely choose to be disadvantaged!?), but, is the gift of an impartial God, who raises some of us to power, and lowers others to powerlessness, on account of reasons which may be utterly incomprehensible and unknowable to us mortals.

-This is the essential import of the Gospels... That we are all in the hand of God. Those who falter, and those who excel. The living and the dead. Whether we do good or evil, we do it by the will of God, in order to enact and fullfill the greatest story ever told. Every great story needs villains. There are no heros without villains, no good without evil. That is the mystery. That we are all his children.

To be perfectly honest with you, HSC I have been thinking about the validity of the belief in "Free Will"; I've come to suspect that it may not be all that simple, all that black and white. When I wrote about believing in Free Will 100%, I'm ashamed to admit this but...I wasn't that self-assured. I'm beginning to think that there are some kind of vibrations in the universe, which direct our thoughts, decisions and behaviors. Why do I sometimes find it hard to resist my former suicidal ideation? Was taking my own life really what my soul truly desired? Why could I not resist that pull, and yet meanwhile I wanted to, and eventually I attempted suicide...and luckily, I "failed". What was truly that I wanted? Did I really know? Do I know now? Will I ever know? I don't mean to take such a graphic example, but this was what came up to me first. Say, today, I "unintentionally" hurt someone else- was that really what I wanted to happen? People hurt other people in many different ways, and people themselves get hurt and react in different ways too. Again, if today I suddenly change my mindset, and decide to do something benevolent to myself or to others- I sort of "kissed goodbye" my former, less evolved self- was that really purely my "Free Will"? Or the vibrations in the universe, or just all there is in the universe, inevitably effect all of us...I think it must be frightening for many to question the validity of "Free Will"; for the ones who believe in it, should "Free Will" be dismissed, that might just threaten the very foundation of their beliefs and their existence...so it's a long road, a difficult path, quite a journey for us to better understand what really makes things happen, what really motivates us to do or to not do things...without "Free Will", what can be left? But I think you've got a good point- after all, the truth prevails, and the truth is what I seek. I'm beginning to search for what there is when there may not be such a thing termed as "Free Will".

posted August 22, 2006 06:19 PM         

To answer your questions...

The point is, Free will is nothing.
It doesnt answer or explain anything.
It is what we point to when we cant
find, or do not care to look for,
a reason for what we or someone else did.
It is a phantom scapegoat.
Very convenient when we do good things,
and wish to pride ourselves on them.
And very convenient when others do bad things,
and we wish to justify our anger towards them.

But free will is nothing.
It is a word with no substance.
Think about it...
It has no attributes,
no characteristics,
it cannot be defined,
except to say, it is "free";
in other words,
we have no idea what it is
and any kind of attempt to define it
would only pin it down and take
away the elusive charm of it;
that is, our ability to apply it to
any and all circumstances wherein
we find ourselves unable to explain
the reasons for our, and others', actions.

Sometimes we need to admit that we
do not know why we did something.
Otherwise, we need to ackowledge the
definite reasons for why we do what we are doing.

If you are in a good mood,
if you are centerered, thinking clearly,
and/or are informed by experience,
you are going to do good.
It is that simple.

But, if you are in a crumby mood,
if you are scattered, thinking unclearly,
ignorant of facts, and unexperienced,
you will do bad things.
It is that simple.

There are reasons.
Foolishness, ignorance, stupidity,
passions, anger, inexperience, etc., -
all these things contribute to,
and ultimately determine the
existence of negative actions.

But, wisdom, knowldege, intelligence,
equanimity, compassion, experience, etc. -
all contribute to, and ultimately determine
the existence of positive actions.

This is the teaching of all the great sages.
It is what is taught in Buddhism, Hinduism,
Sufism, Platonism, Stoicism,
and even Christianity,
when we interpret it as it was intended
by its founders.

But, more than that, it is logical.
It makes sense.
There is no need to postulate some
intuitive source for actions
which are perfectly understandable
according to ordinary criterea.

If we cannot understand earthly things,
how can we hope to grasp heavenly things?

posted August 24, 2006 04:11 AM         

I had been pondering the Free Will subject. I thought about it yesterday evening. It's funny that I had talked about this before in another thread, and I completely forgot that I had. Last night, having read HSC's reply to me, I was thinking "...but no- it's still not that simple." It may be an intriguing theory, this "Free Will is nothing" theory- but for most ppl this would be a dangerous one; yes, I voiced my doubts, my suspicion, my lack of certainty; but it was only transient. It can be, and should be, simply put for the average people: you do what you think is right. That's what I hear from time to time, and that's one of the lines of Dr Doug Ross, the character in ER, played by George Clooney. Sure, I don't know who wrote that line, but that is perhaps the best you can do- what you think is right may not be right; but unless you want to make yourself or others feel bad, thus you do what you think is wrong- otherwise, you would do what you think is right. We don't know for sure if what we think is right, is right- but doing what we think, what we personally "know" is right, is the best we can manage.

I'll be back for more.

posted August 24, 2006 04:49 AM         

Yes, I'm aware that there are other things said in that post, BTW I failed to specify that the other "teacher quote" was someone else's quote, not HSC's, which in fact I knew, simply failed to be precise. Anyway, anyone here at LL who considers themselves a "teacher" of the others is arrogant. That's an arrogant attitude; that's inflated self-esteem. That's grandiosity- exactly what you've been labelling us- arrogance.

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2646
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
The belief in free will
has always struck me as PROBABLY
presumptuous, short-sighted, and/or arrogant.
...Let us be humble.
Let us observe the limits of our wisdom,
and not presume to know better than God,
of whom ALL things have been ordained.

"Your faces are beautiful,
but they are wooden masks.

You had better run from me.
My words are fire."

- Rumi

"Advice doesnt help lovers!
This is not the kind of mountain stream
you can build a damn across."

- Rumi

Who had said they knew better than God? I don't remember myself saying that, I don't recall fayte saying that. Is it humble to consistently "teach" others to see God the way you see it, and call the ones who opt for Free Will "arrogant"? Free Will is not about giving ourselves excuses for the bad things we've done or vanity when we've done good deeds- no! In this case, Free Will has been fatally misinterpreted! As for why I had some doubts previously- it's still to be further scrutinized, the vibrations, energy in the universe, but today I'm lucky that I know exactly what I'm going to do, and that's Free Will. Tell the average folks that Free Will doesn't exist, and they'll lose themselves, the whole world goes bewildered.

Beautiful faces are beautiful faces- if we're talking about the beautiful faces of beautiful souls then that's even better. Why bother calling beautiful carnal or soul faces "wooden masks"? I disagree.

If I tell you to run from me because my words are fire- then I don't even know if I'm good or evil? Lousy.

And advice DO help lovers!

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2825
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
I love you guys.
I'm sorry if I've been rude or something.

I'm so confused.

It's not easy being everybody.

Again, it's difficult enough being oneself. It's impossible being everybody. Of course you get confused. Predictable outcome. Don't further confuse others.

I'm not finished yet.

posted August 24, 2006 06:55 AM         

When I talked about how you could ever say to someone in his/her face that something horrendous has happened because it was "God's will", I meant if you just said such things directly to that person, don't ever expect that person to not be upset; if that's a concept you want him/her to "understand", than you'd better think hard about how to verbalize your ideology to that individual. What a "universal law" terribly over-simplified! It's quite blasphemous. And you think people would accept what you want them to accept like that?

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2825
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
If we cannot understand earthly things,
how can we hope to grasp heavenly things?

The point is, Free will is nothing.
It doesnt answer or explain anything.
It is what we point to when we cant
find, or do not care to look for,
a reason for what we or someone else did.
It is a phantom scapegoat.
Very convenient when we do good things,
and wish to pride ourselves on them.
And very convenient when others do bad things,
and we wish to justify our anger towards them.

You talked about Free Will as thinking ourselves who possess Free Will superior to others- but that's not true. Free Will is not about being superior to anyone else. Everybody has it- Free Will. Yes, sure, sometimes certain individuals become more suggestible, myself included, but that does not mean people like such fellows never have their individual Free Will; not so infrequently some of us carry out the wishes of others', rather than our own- but that does not diminish the existence of our Free Will. This could go on and on and on- but this isn't exactly the right place and this isn't exactly the right time.

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2825
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
If you disagree, that is your choice, but I would suggest you

As for my ideas about the will of God...

I believe all things in the universe are connected

You are mixing up your own ideas of God as "good", with my ideas of God as "everything", if you think

Above is a quote of yours. You just said that if I disagree, that is my choice- you just proved that it would be my choice, and that, is my Free Will. After all, you did say that is "your" choice. My choice- something I choose to do. I choose. My decision. My Free Will.

"All things are connected"- I remember that's the title of the concluding chapter of "The Conversations with God Book Three". lotusheartone never answered my question about whether she was a believer of "The Conversations with God" trilogy, and neither did you. But it sounds like you are. That trilogy is crazy. Certainly, you can find many "wise things" said in those three books, because evil, or more mildly-put- nonsense, does need some seemingly sensible and good stuff to sugar-coat it! Otherwise the majority of people wouldn't buy it!

I believe in Free Will, and if today you tell me you don't, fine, I'll just tell you what I think, and if you still hold on to your "Free Will is nothing" theory, you can have it. Unless you consistently try to "teach" me that yours is right, and Free Will is wrong, and that's when I'll have to defend my beliefs- reluctantly. I wonder if it was either fayte or me who had been consistently trying to convert you and not letting you go your own way, or the other way around. Many people don't even realize what dangerous doctrines they've been practicing and preaching! And don't pick on us again because of our choice of vocabulary- preaching, condemning etc. How refined our choice of vocabulary do you want it to be?

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2825
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
I know fayte is your friend, and I hope that does not prevent you from viewing this matter with an unbiased eye. I myself do not judge or condemn fayte for what she has said, but, I disagree with her, and wish to make my reasons

I always want to understand. I am not being insincere here. I genuinely wish to know how she can reconcile such outbursts with the love she professes to value so highly.

"Don't judge", huh?

Avoiding judging...avoiding being "judgmental"...also part of "The Conversations with God" trilogy teachings. How could you ever avoid judging? How could you ever avoid judging others, judging things, judging different situations? How could you ever fulfill the so-called state of "100% not-judgmental"? By saying what you were saying, and what you say all the time, anytime...you are already making your own judgments...I personally think that we all have to "judge"- depending on how you define that. If we avoid judging, we can just forget about thinking, reasoning, having our own opinions altogether! We judge all the time. We think, we perceive, we judge.

And if you truly want to understand why fayte got so angry with lotus, or even why others- myself, again, included- for gooness' sake, put yourself in fayte's shoes, in mine, in others'- would you be as calm as...what? lotus' words were really infuriating, it's as simple as that. Our reactions were anger, which was, although not to be excessively encouraged, but natural! We're human, we're not God himself/herself! We do have human emotional response! And I personally prefer staying human. I don't want to be God, I just want to be human, and I'm glad I am human, thanks. Again, if you really want to understand, put yourself in our shoes, imagine you're the one who's reading all those words from lotus!

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2825
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
... What if Jesus had told you that you do not understand God? Would you have called that self-righteous and judgemental? Or would you have thought that maybe, just maybe, it is possible for someone to have a clearer perspective on these matters than yourself? I am not saying that lotus does. In fact, I would suggest that many of lotus' conceptions of God are wrong. Does that make me judgemental? Or, do you perhaps agree with me, now that it is not yourself who is under discussion?

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2825
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
Judgement is when we refuse to get along with someone,
not when we say they are wrong,
or when they say we are wrong.

If you refuse to get along with someone
just because they tell you you are wrong,
then perhaps it is you who is being judgmental?

As I stated above upon judging and judgment- what you have been saying about judging and judgment, in my opinion, is seriously distorted perception.

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2825
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
I'm 99% sure that free will does not exist.
But that 1% is driving me crazy.
I think maybe, sometimes,
I deny that 1%, just to stay sane.
I am not good with ambiguity,
or leaving it to God.
I want to know.
Really know.

Maybe you should ask yourself why that 1% is driving you crazy, and why you DENY (to deny is denial; worse yet, self-denial) that 1%, just "to stay sane".

posted August 25, 2006 07:24 AM         

Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake
Posts: 2646
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
fayte,
How could anyone know these things?

How could any mortal possibly know
if their desire to "get off the wheel"
is not itself a manifestation of good karma?

How could any mortal know
if their present consciousness
is self-chosen, or,
just the next stage of evolution?

The belief in free will
has always struck me as PROBABLY
presumptuous, short-sighted, and/or arrogant.

Who are we to suppose that
our striving toward God is not God-given?

Who are we to tell others to come down off the cross,
as if the wood were not already being put
to a divine and mysterious use?

As if every jot of the law,
every phase of the journey,
were not necessary and divinely ordained?

As if every "turning away" from God
were not just another bend in the road
that leads us toward God?

Jesus was asked about the meaning of "karma"...

"Why is this man blind and afflicted?
Has he or his parents sinned against God?"

"No one has sinned, or resisted God's will, at any time.
But the will of God must be manifested."

It is what it is.
Let it be what it is.

If you would blame the fruit (man),
blame rather the tree (God)
from which he fell to earth.
For the tree is known by its fruit.

Every person brings forth fruit in his or her own season.
Let not the first fruits of spring,
enamoured of the good sunlight,
turn and accuse their fellows
who are still struggling in the frozen earth.

Let us be humble.
Let us observe the limits of our wisdom,
and not presume to know better than God,
of whom ALL things have been ordained.

Remove the beam from thine own eye,
and thou wilt see clearly to remove
the mote from thy fellow's eye.

The good judge is no judge,
but receives the world as it is,
and waits upon the judgment of God
with understanding and mercy for all;
and does not heep accusation upon accusation,
intoxicated with his or her wit to make others
appear wicked and unnatural,
unmindful of the good that is
ever being wrought in them.

hsc

"Your faces are beautiful,
but they are wooden masks.

You had better run from me.
My words are fire."

- Rumi

"Advice doesnt help lovers!
This is not the kind of mountain stream
you can build a damn across."

- Rumi

fayte replied to HSC, and I completely agree with her-
>>>HSC.....In striving towards God, is it striving towards an outer God idea or the Godhood within us all? Is it getting off the "wheel" to join in a mindless energy ball of light? Prelude to a great recycling and harvesting of energy for the next big or little bang?

I think it is stopping the payback cycle.

But not a joining with a Oneness where you do not exist anymore as an individual. To be recycled, energy without conciousness, your uniqueness gone.

It is all only theory after all.

I have explained my views before. Not going to explain it all again.

Until I "see" something that makes more sense to me, I will stay with my theory.

It would be easy to just go to a mindless bliss. But no more learning would occur. And ANYthing that claims to know everything is caught in its own delusion and has hit a stasis point. Eternity/Infinity is forever. So growing and learning is too. Absolute Omnipotency is a myth/delusion/illusion. So go to the oneness and mindless unchanging bliss, you won't even be aware of said bliss because you will not be an individual anymore. Soul Borging. Worse than soul Borging. Energy to be consumed. Absorbed. All you are and ever were, gone.Your identity, that which made you unique, your experiences, all your learning..discarded. A true "death" of being. Energy without conciousness is only energy.
That is the easy path and serves no rational purpose other than to be part of the energy required for another big bang.

It is much harder to actually take responsibilty for one's actions and stop the Karmic Payback cycle/wheel. Then to continue learning and experiencing. To me(in theory) that is what getting off the wheel/cycle means. Not the bailing on ones responsibilty and refusing to continue to learn and experience and grow and help others.
Again..all just hypotheticals and theories, and speculations.

I'm with fayte on this.

posted August 25, 2006 08:24 AM         

Am I right?
???
For now that is my theory.
I leave room for change.

Evolve, Adapt or Die.
But change will happen eventually one way or another.
Embrace it.
Learn.
Grow.
The journey is the important bit.
There are many destinations and goals, but no final one to those who do not fear change.
Nature abhors a vacuum.

Just my theories and opinions again.

PS.Just some rambling thoughts this morning:
I like this bit:
FAMILY
F=father
A=and
M=mother
I-I
L-love
Y=you
6+1+13+9+12+25=3
F/father =6
A/and=1
M/mother =13=4
-----F6+M4=1=a unit
I/I=9 divided 3=3
Y/You=7=a completion
7/you+1/mother/father unit=8
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8=36=9
a triangle or triple of 3.
which brings us back to 9.
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9=45=9,
which brings us back to a trining.
Father 3/Mother 3/Child 3.
Each comprised of Body/Mind/Soul 3.
As divine trinities within each unique selves.
GOD/7+15+4=17=8=1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8=36=9
a triangle or triple of 3.
1+2+3=6
1+2+3+4+5+6=21=3/a trine.
father/mother/child
mind/body/soul
father/son/holy spirit.
FREE WILL=6+18+5+5+23+9+12+12=27=9
same as GOD
GOD/7+15+4=17=8=1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8=36=9
a triangle or triple of 3.
FREE WILL IS of/from GOD.

posted August 26, 2006 01:04 AM         

A LEXIGRAM OF:

~KNOWFLAKES~

NO KNOWFLAKE WALKS ALONE
A LONE WOLF AWOKE
SAW A SAFE FEN
WOE, ALSO SAW A FEW FAKES,
A FEW FALSE ONES,
A FEW FOES,
A FEW LOW ONES ASKEW.
SO WE ASK NOW OF
A FEW SANE ELF FOLK
OF LAWS, OF KOANS, OF FLOW
NEW ONES KNOW AWE,
AS NEW ONES WAKE SELF ELF
AS A NEW SELF FLEW AS AN OWL, A SWAN.
WE SANE ELF ONES OWE NEW KNOWFLAKES A SAFE SEA
A SAFE WALK,
A SAFE LANE.
WAKE SELF FLOW NOW
AWOKEN WE AS ELF FOLK SANE.
AS ELF FOLK WE WAKE!
LOSE WEAK FLOW, ELAN WON.
AS WE ELF FOLK KNOW SELF FLOW LAWS,
SO A NEW SAFE SEA NEW KNOWFLAKES,
NEW "ELF SELF" FOLK NOW KNOW.

posted August 26, 2006 02:23 AM         

HSC, thanks for sharing what you have.
I haven't been around much, so sorry for the delay in replying. I really want to contemplate your words a bit and let them settle, before posting in reply. There is so much I would like to share and say in return. For now, I will say that I incline towards an equally shared will~ ours and God's. So, reading your post and believing this way, there is much that you wrote that I could agree upon, although I'm not as sure about your conclusions, for you've reached different ones than I have. Maybe it's a matter of coming to a better understanding of the space inbetween your travelings from point A to Z.
Needless to say, there is much room for contradiction even with myself and my own tumbling conclusions. I catch myself wandering into them and wondering again.

quote:

---

I do not know if your theory of an evolving God is true, but I share it with you, along with several other pet theories of mine, most of which may be mysteriously compatible with a God who both evolves, and is omnipotent.

---

Exactly how I feel. When I say 'evolving' it does not mean that omnipotency is exluded.
I believe God is both omnipotent and evolving. AS in do you know that feeling when you come to an inner transformation or evolution? It feels as if it was something that has always existed within you. Somewhat more of a 'lifting of the veil' or peeling away, much like the visual of a snake shedding skin. An evolving God is a hard concept to logically wrap one's mind around, but I don't believe you can find Universal Truths from logic, for logic is of this world, not Universal, not infinite. It is of our comprehension, yet the potential ability of our comprehension is in an expansion beyond the weighted logistic realms of this 3rd(4th)dimensional terrain. Well, so much more I'd like to discuss with you soon.

posted August 26, 2006 02:43 AM         

I read somewhere once that who we are now is different than who we were 5 minutes ago.
Now is forever becoming the next Now. Interesting to think of...but I think it's very true. Anway, I hope for that kind of freedom to always be at Zero~becomming.

Love your firey passion as always