posted July 04, 2011 02:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by vertiver:
Most famous artists and writers (Picasso, Alster Crowley, Rousseau etc.) are inherently not keen on women, yet they are exalted with high esteem, but heaven forbid a women speaking her mind or else she is seen as repulsive and unpleasing.

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I don't think you understood me one bit. I made no mention of any men. Do you think extreme man haters are a plus to feminism? Is anger ever a plus to a movement? That isn't even what feminism is about. I never said a woman was not allowed to speak her mind and say how much she hates men or blah blah blah. However I did say it does not help much. Plus no, it is not attractive, regardless of gender. Problems aren't solved by hate.

Plus I had also said, within every "group" there are always those who make the group as a whole look worse..religion, politics, etc etc. NOT just feminism. I also said NOT everyone.

posted July 04, 2011 02:52 PM            

The men have always liked me for being outspoken {to the point of bluntness at times} they find my honesty refreshing. I saw a quote on someone's wall by Anais Nin and I loved it so I'll share it

"I do not want to be the leader. I refuse to be the leader. I want to live darkly and richly in my femaleness. I want a man lying over me, always over me. I don't mind working, holding my ground intellectually, artistically; but as a woman, oh god, as a woman, I want to be dominated." -Anais Nin

posted July 04, 2011 07:27 PM            

oh i so hate to do this but it's not like parallels to racism are not obvious. as a 'white' person i have no right to deny anyone of any other race their anger or frustration, or to deem it 'unattractive' or urge them to let it go or whatever else. i'm dating a half black man who owns an expensive (but not showy) vehicle, dresses very conservatively, is polite and respectful and wears glasses. but even in small town 'progressive' canada he is seen as suspicious by police and treated differently. this stuff is ingrained and rampant, and it's the same with sexism. have YOU ever had your ass grabbed by a woman who is stronger than you and COULD hold you down if she CHOSE to? i mean, get real, telling women NOT to be angry is just gonna make us more angry.. for reasons like this.

on the other hand i do not wish to be assumed to be racist on the grounds that i am white either.. but i don't think any women here are focussing on males in such a way OTHER than in terms of having a RIGHT to define ourselves as worthy of equal value. it is a right worth defending, and men would be p!ssed too if the world were the other way around. can you imagine being told you were unattractive for not wanting to be oppressed???

of course there are extreme examples, but why focus there? that would be on par with malebashing; they feed one another.

posted July 04, 2011 08:10 PM            

so i guess i'll ask how you would define a positive, *attractive*, female expression that doesn't tolerate exploitation or repression.

cuz no matter the subcontext, when i read that a woman is "unattractive" for being upset at having been dominated for a lifetime (the bigger and more relevant context in my opinion) it just reads like i'm supposed to submit and relax, babe.

but as i said before and as many here have said, this isn't about bashing men, in fact, i feel for men in knowing quite *how* to conduct themselves with women, but i do know that if i were a man i would ONLY be attracted to very strong self posessed independent women who wouldn't take crap from nobody, and who are also able to be vulnerable and all things feminine. (notice how i said AND and not BUT).

but if 'feminine' is defined as purely submissive even in the face of mistreatment (which is prevailant), i opt out. doesn't mean i hate men. the problem of prevailant sexism exists unconsciously for most and is ingrained from birth. next time you're in walmart stroll down the kids' aisles; all girls toys are pink, princess, or 'cute' or disturbing 'bratz' hoors-in-training and their ilk. all boys toys are grey/green/blue/red and most are violent. i mean COME ON. :eyeroll:

so, there are no easy answers. emnity between the sexes is not the answer, YET, i feel it is important for males to be respectful of, tolerant of, and understanding of the righteous anger feminist women feel to various degrees, and be instead supportive.

for instance, as a woman i am encountered daily with myriad messages that tell me i need to be, essentially, someone's sex slave, and dress the part. well if you don't want that to p!ss me off, then i'll ask, when you encounter this attitude among male peers toward women, do you speak up, or do you perpetuate that attitude? if you do, is it out of fear of ostracization by your friends and some kind of 'male code'? maybe ambiguous things like 'male codes' are to blame and men feel equally opressed by them? it's also no secret boys are discouraged from their emotions from an early age (besides agression- go to walmart), and that is equally injust in my eyes..

posted July 04, 2011 08:17 PM            

it's really annoying because i rarely tell anyone i'm a feminist because it's such a polarizing word and puts people on edge.. but i collect books on the subject that someday i'll find the time to read and obsessively contemplate gender politics in my mind on a daily basis!

posted July 04, 2011 08:48 PM            

I am going to refrain from any further discussion.

I know a famous quote states (paraphrase) "I have learned in my life to avoid two such topics, religion and politics"

I would add to that list, "gender relations".

Emotions run high with some, here included. to the point where maybe they cloud ability to comprehend what a person is actually saying. Creating an alternate reality where words are be put into a persons mouth - (oppressive??) No one will disagree that an angry man is unattractive. Right? Lets use logic, mad people are not appealing, regardless of gender.. just on a spiritual, mental, unconscious level. We run away from anger, to get to a happier, more comfortable place. An angry christian - scary. An angry republican/democrat = scary. an angry sports star - scary. an angry male/female - scary. deal with it anger is scary in any context, feminism included. don't be insulted, just accept it as human nature and truth that people don't like anger, right? But if you want to be an angry religious person/politician/sports star/male/female, etc., so be it. I am NOT saying don't. I am merely saying it will LIKELY detract from your point. (which is why it is probably a polarizing word). Much more is accomplished with peaceful frame of mind, no matter the topic and if you can not understand this concept and frame of mind and especially if you disagree with that, I have no interest in discussion really. I gotta focus on positive.

Anyway, I am being very respectful but I am afraid my words have been misconstrued too much (I second my confusion with the word "Oppressive??" Although I understand in the age of internet, that can indeed be easy.

My final words
-every movement needs CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM (what I offered, in a gentle way..."don't get angry"..Ghandi would agree Peace.
-every movement that grows large enough has those who detract from its (good) reputation, simple really. Just human nature that there are a few who make the whole look bad.

posted July 04, 2011 09:17 PM            

quote:

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My final words
-every movement needs CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM (what I offered, in a gentle way..."don't get angry"..Ghandi would agree Peace.

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..but that is implying 1) that you are expecting anger and 2) that anger is not justified or 'allowed' (which again feels oppressive). which reads, to me, like 3) you associate feminism with unjustified anger which in principle, well, will tend to arouse anger or some similar type of emotion..

quote:

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-every movement that grows large enough has those who detract from its (good) reputation, simple really. Just human nature that there are a few who make the whole look bad.

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okay that's true, but are you saying that feminism is no longer relevant or has been 'spoiled' in your opinion? wouldn't you say, if you are behind what is good about it, that maybe ignoring those people who make it look bad in your opinion is more worthwhile?

i'm honestly not trying to annoy you or tarnish feminism by debating you, i promise.

posted July 04, 2011 09:27 PM            

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It also goes along the saying that "the whole is only as strong as its weakest link." That .05% can really hurt the entire group. I am sure we can find historical evidence of this. I am sure even you can - look at what a small faction of {insert group] does to the whole.

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so in your opinion, what's a good alternative term or movement?

i mean, just cuz there is reverse racism in the world (when i was a teenager, i was beat up by a gang of girls for being on their side of town and white, for instance: they actually said this was their reason) doesn't mean i'm gonna stop thinking racism is bad, or 'too emotional' to bother with doing anything about.

maybe it would be easier if 'antiwomanism' was the term we adhered to; then we could all fight against it (same for antimenism, cuz that exists too). i'm just threorizing since racism is easy to be AGAINST conceptually and in principle and isn't as divisive as feminism and there is no real encompassing anti-racism term/movement.. and if there was it would probably fall victim to such squabbling.

posted July 10, 2011 10:06 AM            

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Feminists did not hate men. In fact, they loved men. But just as my father had silenced my mother during their arguments to avoid hearing her gripes, men silenced feminists by belittling them in order to dodge hearing the truth about who we are.

I learned that feminists offered an important critique about a male-dominated society that routinely, and globally, treated women like second-class citizens. They spoke the truth, and even though I was a man, their truth spoke to me. Through feminism, I developed a language that helped me better articulate things that I had experienced growing up as a male.

Feminist writings about patriarchy, racism, capitalism and structural sexism resonated with me because I had witnessed firsthand the kind of male dominance they challenged. I saw it as a child in my home and perpetuated it as an adult. Their analysis of male culture and male behavior helped me put my father's patriarchy into a much larger social context, and also helped me understand myself better.

I decided that I loved feminists and embraced feminism. Not only does feminism give woman a voice, but it also clears the way for men to free themselves from the stranglehold of traditional masculinity. When we hurt the women in our lives, we hurt ourselves, and we hurt our community, too.

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posted July 11, 2011 01:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by vertiver:
Wow, that is a great quote Moonram!

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i second that