posted December 23, 2016 04:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cottonball:

Being a survivor of abuse shouldn't be a life sentence to darkness, even if it feels like it. And in the mythology she is brainwashed by eating a pomegranate which tricks her into wanting to stay in the underworld. It was Zeus that allowed her to return to her mother for 2 or 3 seasons(??) I think. Persephone perfectly represents the abused though, by oscillating between light and dark, recovery and relapse. I see her as a survivor in a tragic situation but never a romanticized Juliet.

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Again, I don't see it as romanticized, either. And I have truly never heard that perspective. So, I don't know where you are getting that from, aside from an odd person or two who may be totally misreading the story.

For me, the lesson of that myth is that abuse is always somehow a part of you. I feel like the "marriage" to Hades is not an act of love at all. It's because something happened to her that she will never be able to fully shake. So, she remains married to Hades not because she loves him but as a reminder of the pain she has gone through, just like real life abuse survivors are always somehow "married" to those experiences, even when they manage to really move on and turn their life around. What happened cannot be changed. Her memory of that pain compels her to regularly return to the Underworld to help others who have endured similar pain. Because scary stuff happens down there and she knows that. So, she becomes the Queen not as a complimentary title but to guide others through their own pain.

Essentially, it is a very ancient myth, not some sort of rape-culture glorification. It should be viewed much more symbolically than anything. I feel like you're taking it too literally. I can understand your feelings on it. But, it's not saying rape is okay. It's a tale about, again, taking pain and trauma and being transformed by it, which is why it is perfect for Scorpio.

posted December 23, 2016 04:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
Again, I don't see it as romanticized, either. And I have truly never heard that perspective. So, I don't know where you are getting that from, aside from an odd person or two who may be totally misreading the story.

For me, the lesson of that myth is that abuse is always somehow a part of you. I feel like the "marriage" to Hades is not an act of love at all. It's because something happened to her that she will never be able to fully shake. So, she remains married to Hades not because she loves him but as a reminder of the pain she has gone through, just like real life abuse survivors are always somehow "married" to those experiences, even when they manage to really move on and turn their life around. What happened cannot be changed. Her memory of that pain compels her to regularly return to the Underworld to help others who have endured similar pain. Because scary stuff happens down there and she knows that. So, she becomes the Queen not as a complimentary title but to guide others through their own pain.

Essentially, it is a very ancient myth, not some sort of rape-culture glorification. It should be viewed much more symbolically than anything. I feel like you're taking it too literally. I can understand your feelings on it. But, it's not saying rape is okay. It's a tale about, again, taking pain and trauma and being transformed by it, which is why it is perfect for Scorpio.

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posted December 23, 2016 04:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
Again, I don't see it as romanticized, either. And I have truly never heard that perspective. So, I don't know where you are getting that from, aside from an odd person or two who may be totally misreading the story.

For me, the lesson of that myth is that abuse is always somehow a part of you. I feel like the "marriage" to Hades is not an act of love at all. It's because something happened to her that she will never be able to fully shake. So, she remains married to Hades not because she loves him but as a reminder of the pain she has gone through, just like real life abuse survivors are always somehow "married" to those experiences, even when they manage to really move on and turn their life around. What happened cannot be changed. Her memory of that pain compels her to regularly return to the Underworld to help others who have endured similar pain. Because scary stuff happens down there and she knows that. So, she becomes the Queen not as a complimentary title but to guide others through their own pain.

Essentially, it is a very ancient myth, not some sort of rape-culture glorification. It should be viewed much more symbolically than anything. I feel like you're taking it too literally. I can understand your feelings on it. But, it's not saying rape is okay. It's a tale about, again, taking pain and trauma and being transformed by it, which is why it is perfect for Scorpio.

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posted December 23, 2016 04:53 PM            

Clarissa Pinkola Estes is someone who knows how to understand a gruesome story from the vantage point of the inner eye, the psychological landscape. All the characters in stories she recounts, such as Vasalisa and the Baba Yaga, or Bluebeard, can be understood of elements of our own psyche.

In what way does our own underworld undermine and pillage our own innocent nature? The cultural and ancestral heritage which we have holds tremendous power and sway over us; our Pluto comes up to demand attention whether we bid it or not, around adolescence. We then enter into a process of succumbing, because our fragile innocent child psyche must be transformed.. Through awareness of the darkness inherent in human beings and animals of all kinds, the willingness to dominate, to subjugate, to kill and eat one another... through awareness of this we come to an intimate knowing too of compassion, grace and power. We come to know that life and death are cyclical. Feast/famine, above/below, pleasure/pain... they exist in a sacred dance.

posted December 23, 2016 05:17 PM            

I think if interpretations focused more on the transformational energy of these myths, it would make more sense, however, like someone mentioned, it is really questionable how much transformational power a female had in those days. TBH, it was pretty much make the best of it or suck it up, unless she was a queen, and even then, she would defer to a king in most cases.

posted December 23, 2016 06:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
I don't see it as romanticized, either.

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quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Personally I want to gain something positive from the story as after all this asteroid in synastry does not manifest as rape.

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posted December 23, 2016 06:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I've often found this interesting when I see such positive interpretations of Pluto, considering the raping. Albeit, some do warn of possessiveness and stalking, but overall it is seen as a good thing to have Pluto aspects in synastry.

I think if interpretations focused more on the transformational energy of these myths, it would make more sense, however, like someone mentioned, it is really questionable how much transformational power a female had in those days. TBH, it was pretty much make the best of it or suck it up, unless she was a queen, and even then, she would defer to a king in most cases.

I wonder if it is time to rewrite the stories of the stars. A modern astrology if you like. Women have come a long way since the myths, where we now actively speak out and protect ourselves against subjugation and violence. It's a shame for us to continue to linger under the shadow of stories of slavery in times when we did not have a voice. Yes, there is still abuse, rape, violence and subjugation, however, we are no longer silent - and that changes a lot.

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posted December 23, 2016 06:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cottonball:

I just explained it's a story of a niece being raped by her uncle. Why bring this up? You have the symbol of incestuous child rape on your MC, congrats.[/B]

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Right..
Why bring it up? It's always been an important story to me, hits very close to home, so I made my own meaning for it. Thanks for rubbing it in my face?
Lol..

posted December 23, 2016 06:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Selenite:
Right..
Why bring it up? It's always been an important story to me, hits very close to home, so I made my own meaning for it. Thanks for rubbing it in my face?
Lol..

Also, things can still end up okay for people who have been through abuse. You seem dense, or you just misunderstood what I actually wrote

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posted December 23, 2016 06:31 PM            

quote:

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Like Persephone’s abduction into the underworld, in very intense relationships we descend into the depths of our being to discover our primordial instinctual inheritance: the envy, greed, jealousy, rage, seething passions, the need for power and control as well as the destructive fantasies which may lurk beneath the most genteel façade.

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posted December 23, 2016 06:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cottonball:
I'm sorry it didn't occur to me you'd been through abuse and that's what it represented to you personally, I thought you were being flippant because you said "lol". My mistake, I misunderstood. My apologies. It's entirely up to you how you interpret you own experiences.

[/B]

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It's okay I know tone is really hard to convey over the internet. Sorry for calling you dense and I know I seem flippant all the time but I just have a dark sense of humor.

posted December 23, 2016 06:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cottonball:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the89freespirit:
[b]I don't see it as romanticized, either.

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[/QUOTE]

Uh okay. What do we not agree on? So are you just choosing to ignore everything else that has been written in this thread about this subject? It seems like you are kind of railing against this myth because you can't get past the harsh elements of it, including the rape. It is awful and dark and uncomfortable. But I think the larger symbolism is sort of going over your head because the brutal parts of the story are too offensive for you.

It is not pleasant but I think it should lead to a more complex discussion than "I don't like it because she gets abused." That is really the whole point of the story. Like all things associated with Scorpio or Pluto, it is meant to make you uneasy or uncomfortable, on some level.

posted December 23, 2016 06:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Selenite:
It's okay I know tone is really hard to convey over the internet. Sorry for calling you dense and I know I seem flippant all the time but I just have a dark sense of humor.

Of course it's a messed up story and I was actually reading about serial killers again after I made that first post, horrified by reality and how it's pretty much normal for women to be raped and killed and it's been like this forever, from before these ancient myths to today. Kind of baffles me but at this point it definitely doesn't surprise me.

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posted December 23, 2016 06:50 PM            

When you discuss these Plutonian things, the conversation can get quite ugly and hard hitting. That is the reality of the sign's energy. It is not all darkness but the darkness is unavoidable and can drag you down into the Underworld, metaphorically, just like Persephone.

posted December 23, 2016 06:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
Uh okay. What do we not agree on? So are you just choosing to ignore everything else that has been written in this thread about this subject? It seems like you are kind of railing against this myth because you can't get past the harsh elements of it, including the rape. It is awful and dark and uncomfortable. But I think the larger symbolism is sort of going over your head because the brutal parts of the story are too offensive for you.

It is not pleasant but I think it should lead to a more complex discussion than "I don't like it because she gets abused." That is really the whole point of the story. Like all things associated with Scorpio or Pluto, it is meant to make you uneasy or uncomfortable, on some level.

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posted December 23, 2016 07:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
And on that Sasportas quote, a lot of Scorpio people or Plutonian people are survivors of abuse: emotionally, physically or sexually. Not a pretty picture but it is true. This is a part of that trip through the Underworld as well as being confronted with the realities of death and one's own shadow side and capacity for evil, hatred, or destruction.

When you discuss these Plutonian things, the conversation can get quite ugly and hard hitting. That is the reality of the sign's energy. It is not all darkness but the darkness is unavoidable and can drag you down into the Underworld, metaphorically, just like Persephone.

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posted December 23, 2016 07:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cottonball:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the89freespirit:
[b] Uh okay. What do we not agree on? So are you just choosing to ignore everything else that has been written in this thread about this subject? It seems like you are kind of railing against this myth because you can't get past the harsh elements of it, including the rape. It is awful and dark and uncomfortable. But I think the larger symbolism is sort of going over your head because the brutal parts of the story are too offensive for you.

It is not pleasant but I think it should lead to a more complex discussion than "I don't like it because she gets abused." That is really the whole point of the story. Like all things associated with Scorpio or Pluto, it is meant to make you uneasy or uncomfortable, on some level.

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Seriously you are being so self righteous about this. It is really kind of blinding you to the fact that, yes, it is really messed up and this is the point of the whole myth. Nobody is saying it is right. But if you don't think this tale is the appropriate symbol for Scorpio energy - the sign that is exposed to horrific things, even as children, and is a survivor of the darkness - you don't know much about this sign. Life is not all sunshine and fairy tales. And the tale of Persephone is used in a way that is quite metaphorical but also quite close to actual Scorpio people's experiences who have been victims of abuse or who have been through deep pain. Whenever someone mentions it, I understand exactly what they mean on a very personal and instinctual level. And it never makes me feel like someone is saying abuse or suffering is okay. They are saying it is a part of reality that I and other Scorpio/Pluto people are just more familiar with.

I have literally said this three times before. If you still don't understand this explanation, then you just aren't because you prefer to be outraged instead of really listening and learning. And if you don't like a fictional story that astrologers occasionally tell, just tune it out and move on with your life.

posted December 23, 2016 07:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
it is really messed up and this is the point of the whole myth. Nobody is saying it is right. But if you don't think this tale is the appropriate symbol for Scorpio energy - the sign that is exposed to horrific things, even as children, and is a survivor of the darkness - you don't know much about this sign. Life is not all sunshine and fairy tales. And the tale of Persephone is used in a way that is quite metaphorical but also quite close to actual Scorpio people's experiences who have been victims of abuse or who have been through deep pain. Whenever someone mentions it, I understand exactly what they mean on a very personal and instinctual level. And it never makes me feel like someone is saying abuse or suffering is okay. They are saying it is a part of reality that I and other Scorpio/Pluto people are just more familiar with.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
And if you don't like a fictional story that astrologers occasionally tell, just tune it out and move on with your life.

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posted December 23, 2016 07:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by soren:
if you have hades conjunct persepona it means you might get abducted and the story will be retold. he will reel you in and you might kind of like it.

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