posted September 10, 2009 01:40 AM         

i became vegetarian after three closely timed incidents in my late teens: being in a room with a freshly killed deer for a night (i had strange friends with stranger parents, who actually left this deer in the kitchen), and then partook of eating it the next day, seeing my kitten die from a broken neck, and hanging out with a herd of cows one night at a friend's cabin. these incidents helped me make the connection between what was on my plate every day and the lives that were being experienced and were terminated so that i could fill my stomach for a day. it wasn't shame so much as it was knowing i couldn't contribute to this death cycle any longer. but i had to come to that on my own, as everyone does. i was philosophically open to it for a couple of years before i became a vegetarian, but i was definitely defensive about my choice to keep eating meat until the experience had an added visceral component.

maybe the point should be more positive. LIFE vs. death. making a positive change vs. shame. but i still can't help but recognize that because what is actually being discussed is so awful, emotional and cruel by nature that there is no real way to go about it politely. i did enjoy sunchild's 'please?' though. but in itself being polite isn't gonna make that much of a difference either, is it? we are all in relationship with ourselves and our consciences on the matter, whether we think about it or not. we change our minds when we are ready to and no sooner. but i think every little bit helps, personally. sure we can all call valus a dick for being haughty about it but within ourselves we can't ignore or deny the facts he's bringing to light -suffering is happening and we each have the ability to make a difference- and the internal dialogue continues. we are all defensive about anything we are uncomfortable with changing. that's just the way life is. not valus' fault. being polite about it doesn't change that much. we just don't proclaim our defensiveness as loudly with the polite folk. and we probably even sooner forget it.

posted September 10, 2009 01:51 AM         

quote:

---

we are all in relationship with ourselves and our consciences on the matter, whether we think about it or not. we change our minds when we are ready to and no sooner. but i think every little bit helps, personally.

---

quote:

---

and the internal dialogue continues...

---

posted September 10, 2009 05:01 AM         

My first post..was viscious...I get heated too quickly..

I feel if someone is going to protest or fight against something, they should know how to see from everyone's angle..

It makes things more peaceful..

posted September 10, 2009 09:56 AM         

i have been a vegetarian for 8 years now, and my partner 25 years. having lived in 3 different continents and travelled in and outside of these places, there were a few occasions where refusing to eat what was offered was just impolite and so i made exceptions. my diet mostly consists of raw vegetables. i have never driven (mentioned in another thread about its environmental impact) in my life, always been a biker, long-distance i take trains.

there was a time when i was younger i did not turn my eyes away from cruelty. there was a farm near where i grew up and i witnessed how they treated their animals. there are many markets around the world where they sell freshly killed poultry and pigs at markets, just chopped into pieces without stripping skins and feathers, with decapitated heads displayed in front. certain photos like in the previous page would not have bothered me in the same way it does now. i confronted myself with these things when they were presented, because they exist and it is true. and i ate meat, back then. i ate meat, so i could tolerate this cruelty, because i was part of this system.

and now, i don't want to see these things. i have decided so for myself and no one should decide whether it's good or bad for me to see these things. i am not naive. i am not ignorant. and i think meat is tasty. i don't crave it though and i am happily staying vegetarian.

Unmoved,

quote:

---

Seeing those horrible images after being made to feel vulnerable by those cute ones is like someone saying "open your mouth" expecting something delicious to only put something horrible in your mouth.

---

posted September 10, 2009 10:52 AM         

Posting a graphic image...

Or being responsible for what it shows?

posted September 10, 2009 10:52 AM         

I've been a veg since I was 16, mostly because I never enjoyed the way meat tasted or it's texture, and strongly preferred non-meaty foods to begin with. I have no idea what it's like to enjoy/crave the taste of meat, so I don't really feel like I have to right to judge anyone for the choices they make vis a vis taste/desire/etc. Do I think the world would be a better place if no one ate meat? Eh. I'm kind of in the "be good to your body" camp. I once knew a vegan who ate nothing but animal crackers and Spicy Sweet Chili doritos, for example. I think eating 2 or 3 good cuts of high quality, free range, local beef a month (if you can afford it, and your body wants it) is generally fine. It's the international importation and consumption of mass quantities of low quality, inhumanely grown beef that gets to me the most, since it touches on several levels- animal cruelty, human health, environmental issues, exploitation of populace via capitalism, etc. Even when we were cavemen we didn't eat meat every single day, you know?

Nutrition as a class issue is something I'm passionate about and could probably rant over for days, and so will lock the lips for now.

That being said, here's a link to a page that lists 49 (PG-Rated) Reasons Why You Might Want To Give Vegetarianism A Shot:

http://www.britishmeat.com/49.htm

posted September 10, 2009 10:53 AM         

TRUTH Goes Through Three Stages

1. First it is ridiculed

2. Then it is violently opposed

3. Finally, it is accepted

posted September 10, 2009 10:59 AM         

quote:

---

You know, I haven't even been hanging around these forums for all that long and think I already have a pretty good idea of what Valus is about (in the context of LL, that is)- he's an intensely passionate, aggressively ideological Pluto-Chironic bro who deeply wants to share his ethics. Every time I see a post by him in 2.0 I have a good idea what it's tone will be. If I don't think I can take his heat, I just stay out of his kitchen-- so to speak.

---

I dont know why so many people here, who I would expect to know me somewhat by now, continue to misunderstand me and to attribute the most despicable motives to me. Its amazing. Then someone like you sees me right away, no problem. Why is that? Why do so many people see the worst, and imagine the worst when it isnt there? I dont think I'm all that difficult to understand.

I will say that vegetarianism alone is not healthy, if you are still eating 90% of the crap off the grocery store shelves. That's why I recommend a mostly raw diet of live fruits and vegetables. I think the complications many people have when they try to go vegetarian or vegan have to do with the fact that they are still eating mostly processed, synthetic bullsh!t, and then cooking it and destroying even the few vitamins, minerals and enzymes that it had left. My two cents.

posted September 10, 2009 11:04 AM         

who is ridiculing the fact that there is animal cruelty, and who is violently opposing by saying it's not happening?

posted September 10, 2009 11:13 AM         

quote:

---

I'm not an environmentalist, wheels

---

Why not? Why do you not see that your actions are destroying the world? Why? Why? Why? Shall I post 50 threads on it?
And then pout because I'm misunderstood?

It was a frigging ANALOGY about the way you push your agenda down everyone's throats and ignore what doesn't suit you. You don't see my point at all.

Bored with this crap.

posted September 10, 2009 11:15 AM         

You disagree with me. Fine. I'm not going to say "you could be right". I'm going to continue to say that I am right, because I honestly believe that I am. I dont see why that should be so annoying to you. But, fine. I accept that it is. Now, why dont you go somewhere else, where you wont have to be annoyed by someone like me, who says "this is true". I dont think theres anything wrong with it. I see some of the people I admire most saying "this is true", and I may disagree with them, but I dont think they are annoying or arrogant for saying it. Its what they think. I'm glad they are honest about it. I'm never going to let you off the hook by saying "you might be right". I'm always going to stand firm, and if that makes it harder for you to sweep me under the rug, so be it. Not my fault. Ask yourself, honestly, why you are so bothered by my conviction. Can you find a good reason (other than your own gnawing conscience)? I can't.

lechien,

If what you say is correct, you'll have to explain it to me better. How can people agree that this is wrong, and then continue to contribute to it, when they have a choice?

I'm sorry if you dont like my tactics, but, frankly, too bad. I'm outspoken and I say what I see in no uncertain terms. I honestly dont know why that should rub people the wrong way, unless what is really bothering them is their own conscience, which I am triggering. Or is it my confident tone? Is that what so many of you can't stand? That I speak my truth without compromise and that I feel good doing it? Is that so hard for so many people to abide? I really don't get it.

posted September 10, 2009 11:19 AM         

End of.

posted September 10, 2009 11:29 AM         

We disagree.
I'm okay with that.
I think my reasons are sound,
you think they are "excuses".
I'm okay with that.
I wont call you arrogant
or annoying, or whatever.

You are welcome to your opinion.

I happen to think your reasons are excuses,
but i wont just say that and insult you.
I'll argue rationally.

wheels, you still eat cheese, right?
Does it come from free range dairy cows?
That would be best, but, even so,
I still dont think it is right.

Keep debating it, though, if you want.
I'll probably continue to debate it with you.
And take all the heat for doing so, lol.

posted September 10, 2009 11:31 AM         

"A little air pollution". Extremely naive.

And you miss my point by arguing with me about it anyway. It was an ANALOGY. And not a poor one AT ALL.

posted September 10, 2009 11:39 AM         

Why don't you start a thread about it
and see who's interested, eh?

quote:

---

Oh well.

---