posted September 12, 2009 06:24 PM         

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

No backhanded appendix.

I'm just sorry.

posted September 12, 2009 06:27 PM         

quote:

---

Valus, you have brought up plenty of reasonable evidence to support your claim that eating meat is unethical.
I really appreciate it as I continue to explore your links, read up on the topics mentioned and watch the videos.
It has been quite an enlighting experience for me.
I'm learning new things.
That's the bottom line for me.
Thank you.

---

posted September 12, 2009 07:08 PM         

1) whether what valus is SAYING, ultimately, is empirically true (that there is no excuse for torture of sentient beings), and

2) the vast scope of human interaction and the nature of respect itself, and whether anyone has a right to speak a truth that challenges and infringes upon everyone's sense of personal freedom and choice

in essence, the two basic spiritual 'camps'. the one that feels entitled and thereby rationalizes the feasting on of flesh, believing it to be god's will or some variation on that theme. and the one that makes no ultimate distinction between our selves and the selves of others. behaviour set accordingly.

posted September 12, 2009 07:29 PM         

quote:

---

Xodian,
Give it a rest, will you? Can you?

---

In short you really don't want a debate do you... But once again I'll give you the benifit of the doubt .

quote:

---

Here, you want this:

---

And you BELIEVE this?! LMAO! Well lets debunk a few of your illogical points shall we?

1) The sources I used to back my views are from certified nutritionists who with the backing of the general medical commuinity just pointed out serious problems with both a strict vegan diet and the raw food diet including problems with hormonal imbalance, autoimmune crash, Lack of necessary fatty and amino acids, and the like. So your independent thinkers have been debunked by not only the medical community but sideline nutritionists as well . *Dud dud disss!*

2) If that is what the FDA (the so called "private firm" Lol!) wants then they are creating more problems for themselves in the future. More sick employees = More benifits needed to attract highly skilled workers. More benifits = less profits for the company Lol! Plus more sick people not working = less production = less profits. As a private firm, such a forumla doesn't works in their given benifit my poor misguided friend .

But hey... I am sure Area 51 has little green men running around its compounds non? Lol!

posted September 12, 2009 07:52 PM         

and, how many times do you have to ignore me when i say I AGREE WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE, fundamentally???

posted September 12, 2009 08:47 PM         

I appreciate your arguments,insights,and information.

It's good to see both sides of the issue and not just one side.

Critical thinking is highly valued by me.
I even have Saturn in one of the Gauquelin sectors (in 9th conjunct the Midheaven),and Michael Gauqelin that Saturn tends to be in the Gauquelin sectors in the charts of scientists. I also have retrograde Saturn in Gemini contraparallel Mercury in Scorpio. (Mercury oppose Saturn in declination longitude equivalent chart).

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 12, 2009 09:21 PM         

Im not offended by the pictures, I am offended about how oblivious they are of the harm they do to some animals and yet still have the nerve to call others murderers..

Well as I see it Vegans belong with the Meat Eaters in that murder catagory..

posted September 13, 2009 03:00 AM         

quote:

---

I can understand how you and others would get the idea that I'm pompous and self-righteous, but, in reality, I'm just cheeky and honest. If you could hear my tone of voice, you'd know its not really pompous or self-rightoeus, but playful and provocative. Then there is the honesty. I dont mince words or beat around the bush.

---

But I'm "snarky" for making a cheeky post that began with a little "lol" just so you knew i wasnt meaning harm and having fun? So, I'm a bad guy since you cant hear my tone of voice either, but you expect people to keep that in mind when you post?

That post I made was lighthearted and "cheeky", "playful", but you want to try and make me out to be a snarky a-hole for it now?

And if people do that to you - OH NO! LOL We are supposed to keep in mind that we cant hear your tone of voice when you dont keep that in mind when reading others?

posted September 13, 2009 07:00 AM         

I wouldnt have said anything
if 'Zala hadnt criticized my
response to you without
mentioning what I was
responding to.

"Snarky" was her word,
and not one I'd have chosen,
but, my point was that,
if it applied to my post,
it surely applied to yours.

I dont necessarily expect people
to understand my jousting tone.
That's why I explained myself.

If you were kidding,
I apologize for taking
your comment so seriously.

When the first poster to reply says,
"Are you just trying to be annoying",
its hard to see it as a joke.
Or, at least, a joke in good taste.
Sounds much more like a jab.

Anyway, I dont see the humor
in making light of the cruelty
I'm trying to bring attention to.

If I use humor, its to highlite the irony
of people not taking this stuff seriously.

posted September 13, 2009 07:26 AM         

If I dont want to debate you, its mainly because you havent learned how to put a sentence together, and half the time I can't even make out what it is you're trying to say. Things like that can try my patience to the point where I just don't want to bother. Besides that, I dont find any substance in the dismissive and unoriginal responses you've been making. You reject my contributions without fair consideration and just repeat the popular views. You seem to assume that popularity must be instantly recognized as the highest credential. For me, and for every truly independent mind the world has ever known, just the opposite is true. On top of this, you have a juvenile egotism ("dud dud diss") that is just plain annoying. You're probably one of these people who says retarded things like "you got served". I just feel kind of icky talking to you. That's why I'm not keen on debating you, if you must know.

Now, I'm not calling you a meathead, but, do you really think you can convince me by citing medical journals as credible references? Hasnt everything I've said made it abundantly clear that I don't trust those conservative rags, and that I believe the entire industry is crooked and resistent to new ideas? Particularly, ideas that encourage self-care and real healing? They dont even consider the evidence for these things. Like you, they just dismiss them out of hand because they're not already established and because they're so far outside of what the establishment is doing. It makes progress almost impossible. The studies you cite are funded by huge corporate interests -- mostly drug companies, -- and I'm very suspicious of their legitimacy. But, intuitively, I can listen to someone like Paul Nison tell his own story, and I know he's telling the truth, and I know there is value in what he tells. He cured himself of a disease which the medical community said was incurable. They said the only answer was surgery -- to cut out his bowels and leave him with a permanent collostomy bag. Instead, he went against the advice of his doctor, changed his diet, and changed his life; becoming healthier than he ever imagined he could be. There are lots of stories like this out there, but you need to listen to the people. Real people, and not corporate interests and institutions mired in their conventions.

You say the FDA would lose money from keeping people sick because they'd have to pay more benefits to their employees. You make arguments like this and expect me to take you seriously? Xodian, if you can't see how absurd this is... Do I really have to point out to you that they make billions off of selling their medications, and that this trumps employee health benefits by about, oh, say, billions of dollars? Come on. The employees of the FDA dont begin to compare to the number of people in the general public who purchase medications every week. Moreover, if the information I'm promoting were generally accepted, the FDA would be out of business in a week.

I dont know how you came to the conclusion that the sources I cited are unfamiliar with poly-peptides and amylase, but even if they were, what does that prove? These are mostly people from outside the academic establishment who made discoveries through actual personal experience. Why not listen to what they do know? I must have missed your sources that debunked raw foods. What do you make of all the people who are transforming themselves and manifesting their highest destinies through a raw foods diet? The ones who've been doing it for over ten years, and feeling healthier and younger every day. Where do they appear in your studies? Or do you just focus on the problems that arise and then blame the diet, when its vegan? How about the health problems we see in the general public, who follow the Standard American Diet (SAD)? Where do they appear in your studies? A hundred years ago, 1 in 8,000 people was diagnosed with Cancer. Now its 1 in 3. Do you think maybe the medical community is doing something wrong? I suggest you take a look at the work of Arnold Ehret, who healed a lot of people whom the medical community dismissed as incurables. If you can open your mind enough to honestly consider something that isnt in a mainstream medical journal, you might just learn something new.

posted September 13, 2009 07:30 AM         

Wow, I'm really interested in your justifications. So you were not offending me when you wrote, "you make me sick". Funny, because I felt offended, but I guess you'd be the judge of that, not me. lol So, you're allowed to say that because the pics and my tone made you sick? Okay, well, meat-eating and the smug defense of meat-eating makes me sick. Cruelty to animals makes me sick. Can I say "You make me sick" to meat-eaters? Would that be okay? Or would it make you sick? lol

quote:

---

and, how many times do you have to ignore me when i say I AGREE WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE, fundamentally???

---

Oh, so you're a vegan?

Or a blatant hypocrite?

posted September 13, 2009 07:53 AM         

quote:

---

steve, gem of an intention. we all interpret everything (and you) according to our beliefs and principles, period. thanks for rousing such a ruckus as i am SURE you've helped at least a handful of people to -at the very least- question the integrity of their dietary habits.

---

Thank you, and you're welcome.

I realize my style isnt for everyone,
but I do what I can, how I can.

posted September 13, 2009 09:01 AM         

quote:

---

Oh, so you're a vegan?

Or a blatant hypocrite?

Please, help me understand.

---

please keep in mind that you just made me cry. you ignorant, shameless, self-absorbed HYPOCRITE. you abusive crazy blind arrogant one-week vegan! i said i agree with you and this is what you tell me? i will IMMEDIATELY stop whatever i have been doing with my own lifestyle decisions that overlaps your "preachings"! and you lost one person who would follow "your path", although i have been that way way before you tried to convert me. yes tell me it's my loss.

i know i know, i'm sorry everyone, i am being extremely immature by reacting this way, but i normally avoid people like this, but it's so easy to be confronted with hurtful words on a forum like this. he is SO MEAN and cares nothing about how he makes the others feel! he only cares to convince others, not of veganism, but uses such topics to convince others how he is like Mother Teresa and MLK jr. and Jesus.

i don't come to this forum to feel hurt by inconsiderate words that comes from a person who's only interest is to constantly justify himself. i don't think you care whether i am a vegan or meat-eater, what do you think i am anyway? you have no compassion for people. i feel hurt by your mean and manipulatively abusive words and it makes me want to burst out in tears.

you are very much like my ex-boyfriend, who was recognised as an active anarchist by the community. he was always heating up about the people without papers in far away countries and participating in petitions and actively getting involved to that sort of things. in the meantime, everyone suggested to him that if he loved his girlfriend (me) he should marry me, because my student visa was expiring and i would had to leave the country. he couldn't commit to save one sans-papier who was next to himself (although now i'm glad i didn't marry him).

oh you mighty lord Valus, all you want to hear from everyone is, "we are sorry we offended YOU, you were correct all the way along, we were wrong, and we were such trivial people with the brains with the size of a pea. whereas you had known the truth always, you are above us! how foolish and ignorant we were!" right? i know you are going to start omitting things you don't want to bother and extract the parts you can turn into the tools to attack me back again, and so you are going to list the reasons why i am offending you with the sole intention to offend you, and justify, and counter-attack and hurt my feelings again, and never admit that.

now it's really really upsetting me, that i cannot stop looking at this thread and i end up finding words that really ruin my day and makes me cry, and that i cannot prevent myself from saying something knowing it's only going to make me feel miserable as a result, because i have to hear what i don't deserve.

now i take my leave. i embarrassed myself just now and maybe i made an impression and that i am irrational and emotional. i'm sorry everyone if whatever i just said was inappropriate. i should have just stayed away. i was foolish.

i mentioned that i never said i disagree over and over, and this is how he treats me, he fashions me into a hypocrite. I don't understand how this works. it really hurts. and i'm dumb to keep responding knowing he will not hear a word. he is possessed. it's gravely sad, i must tell myself to stop. and i feel so stupid to have made someone like this make me cry.

ok, now i have to go somewhere to make myself calm now.

posted September 13, 2009 09:35 AM         

It's regretful that you got so emotional, but I've said nothing to you that has not been said to me by numerous people here. What you seem to have a real problem with is logic. You keep saying you agree, so, I ask you, "Are you a vegan or a hypocrite?" Because if you agree only in word, you are a hypocrite, and if you agree in deed, you are a vegan. There is nothing "SO MEAN" about that. Its just the facts. If you can't face them, don't blame me for bringing them to the surface.

quote:

---

you ignorant, shameless, self-absorbed HYPOCRITE. you abusive crazy blind arrogant one-week vegan... possessed... person who's only interest is to constantly justify himself!

---

You say these things, which any moderately objective person can see are many times worse than anything I have called you or suggested about you. Then you launch into an extended tirade, slandering me, my character, my intentions, etc. Ultimately, the impression you give me is of a person who is deeply frustrated by the truth, and who can only think to personally attack the one who points it out. I'm not your ex-boyfriend. And I'm not the despicable person you make me out to be. He probably wasn't either. I could cry, too, and I've got a thousand times more reason to do so than you do, but I won't. The surest sign of self-absorbtion is to only see your own point of view. Look at the nasty things you just said to me. Imagine if I said them to you. Are you even capable of that effort of empathy and imagination? What sort of person are you? Do you have any idea how many people here would jump on my back and demonize me, if I uttered the insults you just uttered? But you'll probably be tolerated or even patted on the back.

And just because you define a wise person as somebody who would not admit to having wisdom or genius, doesnt mean all wise people won't admit to having wisdom or genius. In fact, every genius I ever read (and I'm very well-read when it comes to geniuses) put a higher premium on truth and honesty than on false humility. Every single one of them admitted to being a genius. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but its the truth. And while you may see and imagine only the worst in me, I assure you, I dont do that to you, or to anybody. I have a healthy respect for noble people and dramatic things, like MLK, Jesus, and genius, but that doesnt mean I'm all about getting my ego stroked. As would be expected of a Sagittarian Mercury Trine Jupiter, I sometimes enjoy speaking in a literary and even scriptural tone, but that doesn't make me preachy and self-righteous. I invite you to consider the fact that you are seeing me through a very narrow and subjective glass. I have been very patient and considerate with you, all things considered. Now, are you going to answer the question, or not? Are you vegan, or do you disagree with me? You can't have your animals and eat them too.

posted September 13, 2009 09:53 AM         

lechien, I agree with most of your rant , you had ample provocation, and Valus as a highly sensitive person should understand where you're coming from, but please refrain from personal name-calling in the future -- don't sink (or aspire) to Valus' level.

posted September 13, 2009 10:05 AM         

quote:

---

Stephen, haven't you ever wondered why this same scenario (no matter what the subject matter) keeps happening over and over and over and over again to you at LL??
Don't you think something else might be at work here that has little to do with your genius??

---

'Zala, persecuted genius is a cliche.
Do you honestly not know this by now?
Every independent thinker in history
has written about how they were wrongly
attacked and persecuted by the masses.
Do I need to dig up a thousand and one
quotes for you, from Socrates to Tennyson?
Or will one suffice:

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." ~ Albert Einstein

How many times are you going to ask that,
and how many times must I respond by
quoting Albert Einstein, or another genius,
and reminding you that this is a cliche?

If anything,
this is an argument in favor
of my independence of mind,
and not against it.

And do me a favor:
Stop using my name,
like you know me.

quote:

---

don't sink (or aspire) to Valus' level

---

Very kind of you.

But,
"highly sensitive person" that I am,
I never did sink to that level, did I?

Even after a vicious rant like that,
and truly "ample provocation" like that,
I responded with relative civility.

But you still pat her on the back,
and talk about sinking to my level.

LMFAO

Are you really so subjective as this?

Try a little objectivity, will you?

You might find it a welcome change.

posted September 13, 2009 10:06 AM         

quote:

---

I suppose it gets a little repetitive,
when I keep saying how cruel these things are,
but sometimes thats the only way to reach folks.
If you say it enough, it may start to sink in.

---

quote:

---

And do me a favor:
Stop using my name,
like you know me.

---

quote:

---

'Zala, persecuted genius is a cliche.
Do you honestly not know this by now?

---

posted September 13, 2009 10:09 AM         

Clearly, people are avoiding me, lol.

Why do I bother talking to you?

Someone stands up for something important,
like animal rights, and all you can do
is ridicule their "messianic journey"?

You have a long way to go, madam.

posted September 13, 2009 10:11 AM         

quote:

---

Why do I bother talking to you?

---