posted November 02, 2009 01:19 PM         

whatever i think of imperialism, as a monarch in her times, she managed to have a pretty full life without kowtowing to the expectations of pretty much EVERYone.

posted November 02, 2009 04:18 PM         

I guess I am just going to make a note that there were only two "breeders" that even slightly opposed what this thread is about and were both rallied against. My first thought about why more of these "breeders" didn't speak up about the subject is that people who are parents don't really need to defend their choice to have and raise children. I see many people who have chosen not to be parents seem to be getting fired up to defend their choice. Personally, I have never judged a person by their choice to have or not have a child. I can't say that I know anyone who does or has. I'm sorry if some people feel that their choice to not procreate has lead to them being judged or chastised by society, but I think maybe, just a little, that might just be your perception.

I was told I coudn't have children at 19. I used to say I didn't want kids. I was adamant that I would be a terrible parent because I have a questionable past and am emotionally damaged. Having my daughter changed that for me and I'm forever grateful that it happened. Maybe I would have been fine without children, but I am more than ecstatic that I do have one. I have a purpose now, to try and give this little girl a life I didn't really have. Not to fix mistakes perse, but hopefully teach her and guide her into a world more beautiful than the one we have now. I feel I am lucky for this gift, but I would NEVER think someone else who chooses not to have a child is missing out. Each person has their own journey to travel.

It's not noble either way to have or not to have, it just is what it is.

I do not see a need for the inflammatory statements to make the point that either way, it's okay.

posted November 02, 2009 05:10 PM         

quote:

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I guess I am just going to make a note that there were only two "breeders" that even slightly opposed what this thread is about and were both rallied against.

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quote:

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I'm sorry if some people feel that their choice to not procreate has lead to them being judged or chastised by society, but I think maybe, just a little, that might just be your perception.

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quote:

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Each person has their own journey to travel.

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posted November 02, 2009 07:00 PM         

However ..."breeders" is a word that honestly doesn't thrill me. I heard it first when I was 15. My gay friend and I were standing in line, waiting behind two very typical soccer-mom types and their multiple children, when my much older and cooler-than-thou friend rolled his eyes, turned up his nose and whispered, "breeders". At the time, I thought it was funny. Seeing it first several years ago on a few child-free sites, I wasn't quite as amused. Apparently, I've lost my sense of humor. Some of these sites are what, I think anyway, they should be. Supportive. Some can be more than a little bitter and reactionary and excessively defensive. Very understandable given their under-dog position ... but in no way excusable.

quote:

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I would NEVER think someone else who chooses not to have a child is missing out. Each person has their own journey to travel.

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posted November 02, 2009 08:58 PM         

there ARE people who look down on parents for MANY different reasons. but i agree with musette, there are far too many people who consider it one's DUTY to have kids, and the childless WOMAN, especially, something less than whole... why i cannot for the life of me figure out! it leaves more room for those who want to have more kids, if nothing else! some of the nicest, happiest, most caring people i have known never had children. more love for the rest of us i say! thank you!

posted November 02, 2009 09:09 PM         

Some of us dont want to reproduce, some change mind, and do. I have interest in many menace to society born as I have more natals to look at.

posted November 03, 2009 06:01 AM         

quote:

---

I'm sorry if some people feel that their choice to not procreate has lead to them being judged or chastised by society, but I think maybe, just a little, that might just be your perception.

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posted November 03, 2009 06:15 AM         

quote:

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Speaking for myself, the judgement and chastising isn't my perception. I didn't invent the person who just today asked me, "So are you settled down and ready for a family yet?" I didn't imagine the person last week who asked me why I don't have children, just a few minutes after being introduced to him for the first time. It is a real problem that it's socially acceptable to badger someone who doesn't have children. When I meet someone and I find out they are a parent, I don't bluntly ask them why they procreated, and I sure don't tell them it's a big mistake nor do I say anything about our increasing population versus our decreasing resources (the very issue behind this thread being posted). I just hope that they are happy with whatever type of life they've built. Yet it's okay for people to say the following to me on a regular basis: "You're so pretty/smart/rich, I'm sure your guy will marry you up soon and you'll start a family together," "You'll change your mind," "You'll never know love until you become a mother," "Being a mother will make you a better person," "Not having children is a mistake and you don't want to regret it years from now," "Well, I wasn't really living until I had my first one," and (my favorite) "You'd better hurry up and have a baby. You don't want to end up a crazy old cat lady." And I can tell you that my friends and relatives who are mothers do not face this kind of badgering about their decision to have a child. Even the ones who had a child in less than ideal circumstances are not asked anything like, "Oh, so why did you have a kid when you were a teenager/in an abusive relationship/before you got an education/when you were on welfare/before you knew who you were?" They shouldn't ask those questions regardless, but a double-standard exists and it is maddening.

---

Musette,

Precisely!

This is the realization
I wanted to provoke.

Thank you.

posted November 03, 2009 06:21 AM         

Haven't you learned
not to take me literally
YET?

Truth is ineffable.

The soul is manifold.

Masks are all we're allowed.

Take nothing for ultimate truth.

But be willing to consider strong views
though they run counter to your own.

posted November 03, 2009 03:55 PM         

I have one child that is 10 years now and I get just as many people I hardly know asking nosy questions.

"You don't want an only child, do you?!"

"It's selfish to have an only child. He should have siblings!"

"When are you having another?"

"You're not getting any younger! You better hurry up. How old are you again?"

"When did your mother go through menopause?"

"What about when you die? He'll be all alone."

etc. etc. etc.

Everybody deals with crap - whatever road they choose. Then if you do decide to be a parent you have to deal with

"Breastfeeing vs. Bottle",
"Stay at home vs. Going back to work",
"Homemade baby food vs. Baby food in a jar",
"Drugs during labor vs. No drugs during labor",
"Vaccinate child vs. No vaccines vs. Delayed vaccine schedule"
"Circumsize vs. Non-circ"
"Spank vs. Non-spank"
"Cry It Out vs. Attachment parenting"

posted November 06, 2009 09:25 AM         

I'm totally full of crap-- don't believe a word of what I've said. I was just pondering this thread last night before bed and this "solution" gave me a laugh. If it were anyone else's thread but Valus', I wouldn't even post it, but I know he can handle a round or two of Devil's Advocate.

(Fulfill their biological destinies?? I almost threw up a little as I typed it!)

posted November 07, 2009 05:26 AM         

PS - it would be good for society if more intelligent people made the choice to breed.

posted November 08, 2009 02:33 AM         

a) husbands tend to die before their wives. (by 7 years on average)
b) the thought of touching an old woman is repulsive to most people. Unless it's their Mom or Grandma. I mean hugging, kissing, cuddling. Pure love, not sexual obviously.
c) The touch of Health Care workers is not the same as loving human touch of affection from loved ones.
d) Studies show that people who have regular affection (especially full body hugs) are more emotionally healthy and demonstrate better vital signs overall than those who don't

Accomplishments in the world at large are fanastic too though. I want them as well. But I just don't feel like they are enough to feed my need for success in personal and maybe karmic ways. That's my story. Yours could be different. Maybe you have a clear and simple purpose that doesn't necessarily involve having children and that's fine. I'm not being condescending. I'm cool with that. And you need to be cool with my situation too. Geez you're a bit defensive too aren't you....

posted November 08, 2009 08:27 AM         

quote:

---

PS - it would be good for society if more intelligent people made the choice to breed.

Beautiful minds breed beautiful minds.

---

So, then, what do stupid people produce,
and what would that be, for society?

posted November 08, 2009 08:55 AM         

quote:

---

Why the hell would I congratulate someone for not having kids?

---

Good question.
I'm so glad you asked.

But to understand that,
you have to try to answer this:
Why the hell would I congratulate
someone for having kids?

I wonder if you ever thought
to ask this question, MVM.

Is there any better reason
for congratulating a parent
than there is for congratulating
a non-parent? Hmm... NOPE.

The rest of what you wrote,
I suspect, is an attempt at
a personal dig at myself.
Nice try. At least your
heart is in the right place.

I'm pretty sure statistics show
that, on average, the non-breeders
tend to be the more intelligent
section of the community, if not
necessarily the more mature.

But I'd suggest that just because
someone takes on great responsibility
doesnt make them more mature --
on the contrary, maturity is knowing,
ahead of time, and not after the fact,
that some responsibilities are too much.

We've heard at least one parent admit
that, if given the choice over, knowing
what she knows now, she'd choose not
to have the children she has had.
A brave admission.

If most parents never feel this way,
I'd say its generally because of the
complacency that you mentioned.

They raise mediocre kids, and encourage
them to have nice, safe, mediocre concerns,
and they think that's all perfectly alright.
But, then, they don't realize just how
mediocre they are themselves, so...

And I see parents every single day
who look positively ruined; tired,
overstressed, dazed, short-tempered, etc.,
on account of having taken on a responsibility
which they were by no means prepared for.

I see them yelling at their kids,
spoiling them (a concern you raised),
inculcating them with habits of greed,
short-sightedness, selfishness, etc.,
and complaining regularly about how
******* hard the whole procedure is.

But this is all "according to Hoyle".
Nobody questions why its so hard.
They just assume thats how it should be.

And when the kids grow up, everyone
is happy, so long as they are law abiding.
Parents actually think they're doing a
good job if their kids just tow the line.

I'd say the majority of parents are unfit,
and they will raise narrow-minded people
who will support narrow-minded traditions.
And progress will be slow as its always been.

posted November 08, 2009 08:51 PM         

absolutely there is.

the fact you apparently don't see it, astounds me.

posted November 08, 2009 10:19 PM         

MANY MANY families are held together by the most tenuous of threads. many children leave home as early as possible and go back as seldom as possible.

not to mention those who die before their parents or abuse them in their dotage. or were so abused that they NEVER go home again.

but my biggest problem with this statement is that though it may not be true of you, there are far too many people who have children for just that reason - to have someone to love THEM - instead of the other way around. to bring a child into this world without being willing to love it and care for it NO MATTER WHAT the return is, is the worst kind of irresponsibility in my mind. they are not here for our gratification!

posted November 08, 2009 10:25 PM         

"I'm pretty sure statistics show
that, on average, the non-breeders
tend to be the more intelligent
section of the community, if not
necessarily the more mature"

is one self-congratulatory, ignorant piece of bullshite. are your parents stupid? where would you be had they not had YOU? maybe they did a terrible job, as many people do. maybe we will never get to the point where people who are naturally really good parents are the only "breeders". but it takes all sorts. some great people come out of some terrible families and VICE VERSA. because we are human, not calculations on pieces of paper which may be "right' or 'wrong'.

someone has to be parents and some of us need to refrain. i like the idea of congratulating "non-breeders" because their position is just as valuable as that of people who DO have kids.

but i wouldn't give up life for all the perfection in your childraising manual.

i hear you in your complaint about most people's approach and goals in parenting. i didn't suffer from either of those and a lot of people don't. i raised a child who is anything but mediocre, and though she is reasonably law-abiding, that is a by-product of growing maturity. but she is not MINDLESSLY law-abiding, and that makes a big difference.

its true having kids is romanticized out of all recognition of the real thing...although some people manage to find the magic in it a lot of people who should NOT have kids do, and then they get their BIG surprise.

those who cherish their egotistic goals, or have not even recognized their ego yet, will have a hard to horrible time parenting.but it's a learning process.