posted November 08, 2009 10:58 PM         

Please, try not to waste my time. I go to some trouble to provide rational and often highly original arguments in order to explain and support my unorthodox objections. I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you, despite the predictability of your own position(s). If you expect your words to carry any weight with me, you will have to back them up. But if you find that too challenging, don't sweat it. There are plenty of other people here for you to play with.

posted November 08, 2009 11:09 PM         

Please, try not to waste my time. I go to some trouble to provide rational and often highly original arguments in order to explain and support my unorthodox objections."

posted November 08, 2009 11:21 PM         

I like your 1st post there.

As for the second...

quote:

---

is one self-congratulatory, ignorant piece of bullshite.

---

Please,
don't hold back.
Tell me what you really think.

I'm pretty sure I've heard the statistic,
and I think it is worth citing here.
It's perfectly relevant to the topic,
and it doesnt necessarily reflect on me,
but you're free to twist it however you like;
I know it's very much in vogue these days
to accuse people, and Valus in particular,
of arrogance.

quote:

---

are your parents stupid?

---

To be courageously honest with you,
no, they aren't as smart as I am.

quote:

---

where would you be had they not had YOU?

---

Good question. I think there's a very good chance I'd be enjoying the freedom of the spiritual world right now. I'd be in touch with my entire soul, and not a narrow fragment of it; which is the personal ego to which I'm limited during earth life. But, anyway, I'm not arguing here that anything which has happened could have happened otherwise. That would be to imagine a logical impossibility and any hypothetical based on that would be false, no matter what. All we know is that what my parents have done cannot be undone. Pandora cannot be put back in the box. "Entropy", I think that's called.

quote:

---

maybe they did a terrible job, as many people do. maybe we will never get to the point where people who are naturally really good parents are the only "breeders". but it takes all sorts. some great people come out of some terrible families and VICE VERSA. because we are human, not calculations on pieces of paper which may be "right' or 'wrong'.

---

posted November 08, 2009 11:22 PM         

Thoughfully?

Added?

posted November 08, 2009 11:26 PM         

Here's a thought: Why dont you direct your reprimands to the person provoking me from out of nowhere, instead of directing all your disapproval at my responses to those provocations? He made it personal. He contradicted me without providing a shred of argument, and implied that I must be insane or something to think as I do. You say nothing to him, and then reproach me for being condescending. An ounce of objectivity would go a long way for you, I think.

posted November 09, 2009 02:46 AM         

Awesome.

posted November 09, 2009 09:04 AM         

Often in life, we must decide which path to choose: the one that best satisfies our own needs, or the one that best satisfies the needs of the whole.

The answer isn't always cut and dried.

Very often, satisfying one's own needs is the best way to position oneself to better serve the greater good.

I've meandered a bit from the specifics of the original topic, but I think these thoughts can find a good home here.

I really liked what MVM said here:

quote:

---

I'll congratulate people for making the decisions which they've chosen to live with.

---

I'm assuming that we can all agree that, should everyone decide that having children was selfish, and, therefore, to be avoided, then, regardless of the numbers we have now, within about 100 years we would have no population at all.

Understandably, some would argue that this would be ideal. For now, I'll reserve that argument for another time.

I've said before, and I'll say again, I can't for the life of me even BEGIN to understand why anyone would criticize the choice not to have children. Do I think I am better or worse than these individuals? No. We're just people who have made different choices. Big deal.

I think it's awful that anyone should have to defend their decision not to procreate. I completely support that decision. One hundred per cent and then some.

Some of us have chosen to have children, and those decisions are equally difficult to defend. I have a hard time explaining my decision to myself, as it is very complex, and often contradictory. I assume that is true for most people, regardless of what life decisions they have made.

So, congratulations on whatever you choose! I'll break out the champagne.

posted November 09, 2009 10:23 AM         

But these are all selfish reasons.

What justifies creating life?
Do we need to justify it?
If we have the ability to justify it, then why not?

posted November 09, 2009 10:46 AM         

Reality is a bitter pill and I to be aware of it.

***

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

posted November 09, 2009 10:52 AM         

For the record, I question nearly all my decisions in much the same way-- questioning this one exposes no more self-doubt than I have in my choice of breakfast cereal. Ultimately, it's difficult for me to believe that there are absolute right and wrong answers. Sometimes it's aggravating to have this kind of mindset. I can generally see multiple points of view, and see how contradictory philosophies can be equally valid.

Let's use my own experience as an example.

I don't have a good practical reason for having children. All I can say is that I wanted them. Also, whether we like it or not, we are biologically wired to reproduce. (Of course, there are ways around this, but I'm taking the argument to the most basic level.) It's not hard (from here) to assert that my decision to have children is selfish. I would agree. Do I need them to tend to the fields or hunt food for our survival? Not at all. They're here because I wanted them to be.

On the other hand, some choose not to have children. Sometimes it's a matter of can't, which I'll leave to the side. Sometimes it's a sincere concern for population control, and even if the person wanted children, he or she would choose not to. But often, a person has his or her own reasons, ranging from simply not liking children, to not wanting to perpetuate negative family cycles, to not wanting to share his or her time and resources with another person. These reasons are also selfish. Earlier I discussed that if we were all to take this stance, then our population would eventually die out. (For the record, I don't think that's a big deal one way or the other, but it's a valid point.)

So, I can conclude that I can find more practical reasons for not bearing children, but if that were reason enough to stop all human procreation, then the species would die out.

But that only answers the question from a practical stand-point. I don't believe that a decision has to have practical value to be of merit. Indeed, many of the most important aspects of being human are our heart and soul decisions. Rarely are these based on practical, concrete things.

Yin, when I ponder things from a philosophical frame of mind, I don't usually reach conclusions. Rather, one "answer" spirals into another question, resulting int he formation of rather complex webs of thought. I'm sure you and most others can relate to this. I make it a point to say this because my "answer" is incomplete. I suspect my answers will always be incomplete.

But I hope you can appreciate an honest attempt at an explanation.

posted November 09, 2009 11:14 AM         

(Humans are funny creatures, no?)

Some people like to discuss philosophy from a strictly mental perspective, removing from the argument our biological instincts. Indeed, it is a popular belief that the more evolved a human is, the further he or she may rise above his or her nature.

I can understand that argument.

However, I, personally, choose to validate and even honor our animal instincts, and this is generally incorporated into my philosophy.

What I have found is that often when we choose to rise above our animal natures, it is for selfish reasons.

Again, selfish does not always equate with bad!

Giving into our natural instincts is not always good.

The opposites of these statements are also true.

posted November 09, 2009 11:18 AM         

Future,

quote:

---

But often, a person has his or her own reasons, ranging from simply not liking children, to not wanting to perpetuate negative family cycles, to not wanting to share his or her time and resources with another person. These reasons are also selfish.

---

Agreed.
I can't assert that having biological children is more selfish than not having children. All the reasons and justifications come from the ego anyway - they begin and end with the ego, hence they are inherently selfish.

However, given the present situation with so many unwanted children already in existence, I do believe that adopting is the less selfish option if one is presented with a choice between having and not having children.

posted November 09, 2009 11:27 AM         

quote:

---

Some people like to discuss philosophy from a strictly mental perspective, removing from the argument our biological instincts. Indeed, it is a popular belief that the more evolved a human is, the further he or she may rise above his or her nature.

I can understand that argument.

However, I, personally, choose to validate and even honor our animal instincts, and this is generally incorporated into my philosophy.

What I have found is that often when we choose to rise above our animal natures, it is for selfish reasons.

---

posted November 09, 2009 11:31 AM         

quote:

---

Everything above may be wrong!

---

posted November 09, 2009 11:59 AM         

I have another friend who has been desperately trying to adopt for over a decade and still is struggling through the process.

I can't say for certain, but if I hadn't been able to have children, there's a good chance I would have chosen to adopt. However, had I not been able to adopt for one reason or another, I wouldn't have been devastated by it.

Some are. It's just a stronger need for them.

None of these things answers your question. I don't have an answer. It's something I've asked myself, but don't have a good practical answer for it.

I do know that carrying, giving birth to, and nursing my children has been, on a primitive level, an extraordinary experience for me. I know I leave myself open to all sorts of attack for that response, but it's my truth.

It was something I wanted to experience. And after the first time, I was eager to experience it again. For those who want to despise me for this, feel free. I can't and won't try to defend it.

We all come from different places. I believe we all have our own journeys and develop our own needs. There are needs that having children has satisfied for me. Something crucial has changed within me as a result. That is all I know for certain.

I'm no saint.

But I try really hard to do my best.

I've made a lot of decisions in life that can disagree with on one level or another. On the other hand, had I chosen other paths, I would still disagree with myself.

Let's be honest for a second here: for the intents and purposes of this thread, there is no "right" answer for why anyone would choose to have children. So please be clear that I have no intention of convincing anyone to see my point of view.

I've offered a glimpse into my personal reasons (which do exceed what I've posted here) for the sake of anyone who is legitimately seeking insight into the experience of at least one biological parent.

posted November 09, 2009 12:06 PM         

its funny you assume the wasted time would be yours, maybe i feel the same way about you in this case? did you consider that? lol.

i do not currently have interest in having a full on debate with you, if i did, i would have written a reply that would have carried more 'weight' to it.

anyway, i stand by what i said, and that's not just personal to you, that goes to Anyone who does not understand why one person, would congratulate others for having children (adoption or biological, but specifically biological)

"He contradicted me without providing a shred of argument"

this is hilarious to hear from you, considering you don't actually provide anything to back up your 'answer' as evidence or reason.

you conjured up a reply, full of things about what happens to adults who find it stressful to raise children, and the effects of poor parents on society, etc etc, thats all Irrelevant, you have forgotten the original reason why people congratulate others.

im just going to give a hint - assuming - i get married, with the right person, and were happily in love/married, and we have our own home - then start our own family unit? have our own children/family?. everyone that matters, will congratulate us. because it is an achievement to people in a personal relationship. my family will be proud of me. i'm not having kids to make people like you lot proud, i couldn't care less what you think. none of you matter in that regard, Lmao.

i want to raise a couple of children, and have a happily family, that is an achievement. just because you supposedly care about society more than having a family of your own, or what ever, justifying reasons to congratulate others for not having kids, because they avoid the 'risk' of children turning out bad, or parents not being able to 'cope' well, ruins the reason to congratulate people that do it will and are loving, and have achieved a family unit with the love of their life? i don't think so.

and if you are going to bring up 'arguments', don't fall into the 'saggie error' of presumption.

what is this? :

"I'm pretty sure statistics show
that, on average, the non-breeders
tend to be the more intelligent
section of the community, if not
necessarily the more mature."

what on earth does "i'm pretty sure statistics show" suppose to mean? they either do or don't. you either have them or you don't have them.

are you going to present some evidence which proves that on average, intelligent/mature people on the planet, have not had kids and don't plan to? good luck on that one my friend, i will Laugh if you try and prove it with a statistic.

and what is the statistics going to be based on? there is many forms of Intelligence, and 'mature' is quite subjective.

to me it seems your post is another attempt of trying to prove something to make your self seem more smarter or intelligent.

in this case you seem to try and suggest that you are intelligent/mature because you are part of a community (which you apparently haven't proved exist on average) that don't have children. its better for society? what societies are you basing it on? the one you live in? america? what about the rest of the world? sounds selfish to try and use this as a way to justify that there is no better reason to congratulate some one else for having children and creating a life / family than those who Decide not to do this.

there is no reason to congratulate others for not having kids, its just their own decision. you made up a reason to congratulate them because you think it helps society, or proves they are part of the more 'mature' or intelligent community. lol, what ever.

if you think that the reason to congratulate somebody for not having kids, is equal to congratulate people for having kids, because it proves they consider society before themselves, or proves they might be more 'mature' and 'intelligent', then thats your own opinion, and thats where we disagree.

posted November 09, 2009 12:09 PM         

In most cases, for me, taking a stand is a bit hypocritical when I can see that someone else has equally valid reasons for supporting his or her own points of view. I seek more to understand than to win.

In answer to your question about rising above our biological instincts to "reach abstract truths, birth new ideas, and evolve our minds," I would have to answer that I completely agree that we should do these things, and I don't think we have to completely ignore our biology to achieve these things.

I think I may have already stated that it's an unpopular position.

You haven't said anything I disagree with. I know that's a frustrating answer (going back to the Libra moon thing.) Honestly, I'm not trying to be either overly cooperative or evasive. It's just me. Like I said, sometimes it's no fun to be like this. I sometimes wish to take a point of view and pound it to death-- people seem to have more respect for that sort of thing. Indeed, sometimes it feels that because I haven't disagreed with one side or the other that I haven't said anything at all.

I guess I'll be no great leader, great guru, or great anything in this lifetime.

posted November 09, 2009 12:15 PM         

I pick and choose my battles. Wandering into a thread called, "Congratulations on NOT having a child," would be a stupid place for me to elaborate on the joys of parenthood, no?

You've been a total sweetheart throughout these discussions. I appreciate that you've been respectful in your questioning, and strong in your opinions.

I have to go for now.

posted November 09, 2009 12:17 PM         

quote:

---

Like I said, sometimes it's no fun to be like this. I sometimes wish to take a point of view and pound it to death-- people seem to have more respect for that sort of thing. Indeed, sometimes it feels that because I haven't disagreed with one side or the other that I haven't said anything at all.

---

Future, you have no idea how much I identify with this. And I have True node in Libra as well. Talk about looking at all sides. Sometimes I get sooooo frustrated with my own urge to be fair!

quote:

---

I pick and choose my battles. Wandering into a thread called, "Congratulations on NOT having a child," would be a stupid place for me to elaborate on the joys of parenthood, no?

---

I would actually very much appreciate a thread on the joys of parenthood. Only it's not my place to start one - I don't have any children.

quote:

---

I guess I'll be no great leader, great guru, or great anything in this lifetime.

---

Amen. Same here.

quote:

---

You've been a total sweetheart throughout these discussions. I appreciate that you've been respectful in your questioning, and strong in your opinions.

---

posted November 09, 2009 12:18 PM         

Future,

posted November 09, 2009 12:22 PM         

• Overall, researchers have observed childfree couples to be more educated, more likely to be employed in professional and management occupations, more likely for both spouses to earn relatively high incomes, to live in urban areas, to be less religious, to subscribe to less traditional gender roles, and to be less conventional.

  
  

• David Foot of the University of Toronto concluded that the female's education is the most important determinant of the likelihood of her reproducing. The higher the education, the less likely for her to bear children
  

posted November 09, 2009 12:32 PM         

Any woman who chooses never to have kids — and doesn’t inherit any as a stepmother — ends up looking like a freak. All women want kids! Where’s your maternal instinct? Babies are so cute! There’s a loud, powerful, unavoidable litany. Not to mention the parade of celebs with their baby bumps, their babies, their toddlers, their kids, somehow suggesting it’s the coolest choice imaginable.

It’s a choice, as Laura. S. Scott discusses in her new book, “Two Is Enough”, the result of interviews with 171 people who chose not to have kids, experts and parents. She debunks a pile ‘o myths — parenthood makes you a better person, it’s different when they’re yours, parenting is the path to maturity.

As someone who never wanted kids, I know what people think of us. We’re weird, cold, unloving, selfish. Whatever. Here are a few things to think about should you feel the need to judge someone who didn’t procreate:

1) There may be serious medical issues, from cancers to mental illness, we don’t want to risk in having offspring who may be born with them. We know the costs, financial, emotional and psychological. We’ve made that calculation.

2) We may have had crazy childhoods, with parents who were mentally or physically ill, substance abusers or worse. Surviving our own childhoods was tough enough. Many of us were “parentified”, forced into taking charge of the adults who chose to bear us, taking care of them when we were way too young to handle it. We’re worn out. Parenting our own kids looks like another few decades of more wearying work.

3) Parenting, well, is really, really hard work. We’re not dumb! Sure, it’s deeply rewarding. So are many other activities.

4) Depending on your career choice or ambitions, handling the additionally relentless time, money and emotional needs of those utterly dependent on you is unmanageable. We want to do our work, or our avocations, really well, perhaps even obsessively, and we know something has to give — motherhood, or fatherhood, is it. We see the anger, resentment and fatigue of many women trying to juggle 12 kinds of excellence at once.

5) The choice carries consequences, of which we’re fully aware: people with kids may exclude you from their lives, we get asked to pick up the slack at work for parents’ needs, we have to think a little harder about what the future looks like. It’s not a predictable sequence of pediatricians/school/SATs/college/weddings/grandkids. It’s not predictable at all.

6) It’s just the two of us. Thanksgiving choices aren’t obvious. Neither is Christmas. With no distractions of kids and their needs, it’s all up to us to decide how to express our deepest values. Maybe it’s work, travel, volunteer work, mentoring. It forces many thoughtful conversations.

7) How and where can we connect with kids? I love talking to kids and hanging out with them, but with no nieces or nephews, it’s tough and a little lonely. I was a Big Sister for a while, but that’s a whole different story. This is something I’m still thinking through.

What’s our legacy? Big word, that. But parents take it for granted. They’ve had kids! There’s visible proof of their commitment to the future. For us, it’s deciding how or where we’ll handle our later lives. Who will receive the money and assets from our estates when we die? A charity, foundation, our alma mater? Knowing there will be no physical continuation of us, mortality feels very real indeed.

posted November 09, 2009 12:39 PM         

I do not think that anyone, parents or non parents, should have to come up with reasons why they have made their choice or "back it up" with logic, reason or anything other than it was their own PERSONAL choice. Nobody should have to make a logical explination about something that is for the most part purely emotional.

Emotion, like thought, is nothing that you can clearly define or explain to another. It is as individual as a fingerprint. Each move we make as human individuals is coming from a place that only we ourselves can arrive at given our extremely personal life experiences.
___________________________________________
It is irritating beyond comprehension that anyone should feel the need to explain to death their decisions to procreate or not. To each their own. I can't tell you how many eye rolls and sideways glances I have gotten for having my daughter by people who don't even know me because my situation was not ideal when I was pregnant. I'm sure that the people who have chosen not to have children, witnessed by what has been said here, have had their share of it also. How rude and terrible is it that anyone should have to endure the judgment of others for something so biologically and emotionally unexplainable?

As a parent, you cannot begin to grasp what you feel for your child. The emotions are more than I can even bear at times. I spent a big part of Saturday crying every time I looked at my daughter because she is such a miracle and I hope every day that I can be the best mother I can possibly be and deserve her love. EVERY DAY. Do those words even really touch the surface of the depth of my emotions towards her? Not even close. So how can you be expected to put into words for somebody who has not had this experience what it feels like? You can't. And you shouldn't have to.

This board has seen countless issues brought up and when it comes to questioning a persons PERSONAL feelings, "this is the way I feel about it, who are you to judge my feelings. I am me, let me be me... blah blah" is the response. Why should we feel any differently or have to justify our emotions?

I think it's bs.

As far as this thread goes, I truly feel for people who have been judged or treated badly because they have chosen not to have children. That's bs, too. And it would be just peachy if all the adopted children could be adopted and cared for by loving families. Unfortunately the adoption system is far from perfect. This process can take years, cost more than a couple may make in a year or more salary, and fall apart several times before a child and family are brought together.

I do believe that children need to be educated more vigorously in the sex ed department so there are less teen pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies occurring, but as far as feeling it is not acceptable for adults to procreate for the sake of overpopulation or the possibliity that these children may not grow up to fit with somebody's opinion of "well adjusted" or whatever, have a nice day with your point of view, but it's not up to you to decide or judge. It is a biological right you can't take away from people. You can educate with facts and hope that things will be better in years to come, but please don't think it's your place to throw non-existant statistics (oh, wiki huh, yeah... totally viable) into your argument and expect anyone to follow your logic.