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Author Topic:   'is suicide selfish' ( radio prgm )
Happy Dragon
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posted September 22, 2010 07:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Happy Dragon     Edit/Delete Message
currently 'on-air' .. available via 'listen-to-again' link over the next 7 days
( bbc radio leeds )
~ http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p001d7mz ~

" Your views on the news of the day. "

todays ( 22nd sept. ) subject/question be .. 'is suicide selfish' ??
prompted by a news item .. ~ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-11388669 ~
just started listening to it .. ..

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Happy Dragon
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posted September 22, 2010 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Happy Dragon     Edit/Delete Message
BTW: part 2 of that above prgm be about 'haunted-houses' ..

as that haunted-house-for-sale ..

~ http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/001712.html ~

.. didn't sell at auction ..

nothing unusual about the subject matter .. comes up frequently ..

maybe someone will phone in with a good story :-))

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WinkAway
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posted September 22, 2010 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WinkAway     Edit/Delete Message
For one...YES suicide is not only selfish, but a coward's way out.

Also, about the haunted house..
I would LOVE to own something like that!!
How cool would that be!?!
I'm a nerd..

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T
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posted October 12, 2010 04:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message
This thread caught my eye awhile back and I meant to reply to it. I just wanted to say that in my opinion, no, suicide is not selfish. It is many things, but selfish is not one of them.

It is a last resort for some souls who know too much pain and no way out of it. Let's think more about them and not ourselves. How horrible must it be to feel this way? Let's find some deeper compassion and not judge too quickly and feel bad for ourselves in these kinds of cases.

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T
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posted October 12, 2010 04:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message
HD, I read your last email btw. Thank you and i'll get back soon.

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hippichick
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posted October 12, 2010 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hippichick     Edit/Delete Message
Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY, can call the act of a very desperate, disturbed individual selfish.

And nobody can even try to guess what is going on in the mind of a suicidal individual, unless you have been one.

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LEXX
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posted October 12, 2010 09:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
T and hippichick
I am not at my best so not up to saying more at this time.

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WinkAway
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posted October 12, 2010 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WinkAway     Edit/Delete Message
You're right T

I read my post from earlier and that wasn't very brilliant...

I had a hard childhood and to make a long story short, I attempted it a few times myself in my lifetime.

But no more... hard to explain why, but a huge part of that is learning to love yourself which is easier said than done sometimes.

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T
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posted October 12, 2010 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message

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Randall
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posted October 12, 2010 09:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Well, I disagree. I think it's one of the most selfish of acts. And cowardly. What is the definition of selfishness? Perhaps to put yourself ahead of others? It's selfish to your spouse--children--and even close friends. But I want no arguments. I simply disagree. And I don't have to have been suicidal to have an opinion on suicide any more than I would have to be African American to have an opinion on racism or a female to have an opinion on sexism.

------------------
"Life is like a box of crayons. Most people are the 8-color boxes, but what you're really looking for are the 64-color boxes with the sharpeners on the back. I fancy myself to be a 64-color box, though I've got a few missing. It's okay though, because I've got some more vibrant colors like periwinkle at my disposal. I have a bit of a problem though in that I can only meet the 8-color boxes. Does anyone else have that problem? I mean there are so many different colors of life, of feeling, of articulation...so when I meet someone who's an 8-color type...I'm like, 'hey girl, magenta!' and she's like, 'oh, you mean purple!' and she goes off on her purple thing, and I'm like, 'no - I want magenta!'"
-John Mayer

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Randall
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posted October 12, 2010 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
And suicide as a last resort? Come on. Really? REALLY? Just because a person gives up looking doesn't mean that solutions aren't nearby. Now, I don't mean to sound like I'm not sympathetic--just that I absolutely feel it is a selfish act...by the textbook definition of selfishness.

------------------
"Life is like a box of crayons. Most people are the 8-color boxes, but what you're really looking for are the 64-color boxes with the sharpeners on the back. I fancy myself to be a 64-color box, though I've got a few missing. It's okay though, because I've got some more vibrant colors like periwinkle at my disposal. I have a bit of a problem though in that I can only meet the 8-color boxes. Does anyone else have that problem? I mean there are so many different colors of life, of feeling, of articulation...so when I meet someone who's an 8-color type...I'm like, 'hey girl, magenta!' and she's like, 'oh, you mean purple!' and she goes off on her purple thing, and I'm like, 'no - I want magenta!'"
-John Mayer

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T
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posted October 12, 2010 09:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message
Hippi & Lexx

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hippichick
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posted October 12, 2010 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hippichick     Edit/Delete Message
o, really randall?

have YOU been there? have YOU had anybody in your life xterminate themselves? have you had anybody in your life try? have YOU ever???

suicidal people are not thinking rationally, that is why they are suicidal!!!

you just can not evaluate their decisions by what you or i may do, cause they are not you or i!!!


DO NOT judge till you been there! (done that)

sheeatttt!

t~~~

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hippichick
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posted October 12, 2010 10:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hippichick     Edit/Delete Message
o and by the way, what if, just WHAT IF the individual thinks the world would be a better place without he/she..now is THAT selfish???

seriously, randall and any others, you just dont have a clue till ye been here!

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LEXX
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posted October 12, 2010 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
T

Well I feel I must give an example and please, those against the idea of suicide, tell me what you think of the following situation.

A wonderful dear person, my ex mother-in-law, whom I adore, and who treated me very lovingly even when I divorced her son, then remarried, and she was kind to my new husband too.....and even after I left him she and I still cared for each other.
She was an intelligent very active social lady.
A few years ago she developed Alzheimer's and dementia.
She knew she was not going to get better.
She attempted suicide, but was stopped in time.
Was she selfish?
Well...
Now she rarely recognizes people, and sits around staring into space.
She wears diapers and needs taken care of like a baby.
She is exceptionally healthy otherwise and could well live a few decades longer.
She is miserable or near comatose depending on the moment.
Her life is not a quality one any longer.
And yes, she is a burden on her family in many ways.
Now they watch her and can do nothing to stop her suffering.
Was her decision whilst still lucid, to end her life a wrong decision?
How many folks would want to live as she must live now?
If a cure cannot be found for her, I hope her passing comes soon.
Enough for now, just thinking of her and her terrible plight has me sobbing so bad I can hardly see to type.
I love that dear lady so much.

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hippichick
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posted October 12, 2010 10:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hippichick     Edit/Delete Message
lexx

reminds of my granny...

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hippichick
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posted October 12, 2010 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hippichick     Edit/Delete Message
o and lexx..NO that is not selfish!

i could go on and on here, but am wasting my wind..

you and i know that people with such ideas are beyond the societal perception of "rational"


t~~

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Randall
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posted October 13, 2010 02:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
I'm not judging, Hip. I am simply giving my opinion, which I stand by. Not considering the impact on others, especially children, is a self-centered act of selfishness. Why all the anger? I have my opinion, and you have yours. What I feel should not affect anyone else in the least. I may be sympathetic to the suicidal, but I am not going to lie and say I feel it is a grandiose act of generous giving to take one's life. Dying is easy. Sticking it out and learning through the pain to become a better person isn't. And maybe I have lived through it. You really don't know, do you? But if anyone takes my opinion and views it as a personal judgment, then that calls for self-reflection. Don't strike out at me or anyone else for having an opinion. Simply express your own.

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Randall
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posted October 13, 2010 02:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Oh, and LEXX, no, in your example, it is an exception, of which I am sure there are others similar. But barring such mental incapacity, I stand by my opinion. Irrationality is no excuse. Most people make irrational decisions their entire lives.

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Randall
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posted October 13, 2010 02:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
And one other thing--maybe I was one of the ones left behind. But either way, I don't have to support why I feel the way I do or give evidence to prove my opinion. The question was raised as to whether or not suicide is selfish. Well, yeah, imho it is. But hell, most people are selfish anyway. According to evolutionary theory, we have selfish genes. Rising above our selfish nature is a daunting task, and suicide is but one indicator of our pervasive selfishness.

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teasel
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posted October 13, 2010 04:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message
I'm still here because of my family; I've been close to it - thinking of various ways in which I could go - and then I think of what it would do to them... I guess I haven't been as far gone as I would need to be to do something, but I've been close.

I'm aware, though, that I have it good in ways - I can't understand how I haven't flourished in the way that I thought I would, and that others assumed that I would, so with me I'm ashamed that I can't seem to fully get it together and really do something, what with the support I've had in ways, throughout my life.

That isn't true for everyone, though. I know there have been times when I have really thought that everyone would be better off without me here. That was the motivation for me, at times - feeling almost dead inside. That, or feeling so broken, and that I'll never get it together, that I'll always be too different - or not feeling able to handle the amount of emotional pain at the time.

Someone I'm acquainted with has a goal here for remembering someone he lost to suicide.

(I haven't read the whole thread... I'll be back later.)

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Valus
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posted October 13, 2010 08:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Teasel,

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Valus
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posted October 13, 2010 09:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Is a brain hemorrhage selfish?

There are forms of Cancer that are "more selfish" than suicide, as they involve living in an indulgent way (smoking cigarettes or eating unhealthy foods), and yet I wouldn't call death by Cancer selfish. For one thing, people are "only human". The world is a difficult place, and some places in the world are more difficult than others. To pass judgment, especially without even considering the specifics of each individual case, is to ignore the devastating nature of various environmental and neurological conditions. We are not even in a position to perceive the relevant factors, so, we are very far from being in a position to judge their effects. Yet some people, for whatever reason, have absorbed the cliche notions that suicide is "selfish" and/or "cowardly". If I had to speculate, I'd imagine that these people are either cold-hearted or short-sighted, or both; but I can't know for sure, and I suppose it's impolite to speculate.

There are other factors worth considering as well. For instance, suicide is often a course of action "chosen" (I use the word very loosely) by individuals who are more sensitive than the average person. Sensitivity is not the same as weakness. On the contrary, insensitivity is more likely to constitute a weak response to life. Insensitive people tend to be people who have managed to numb themselves in some way to the more disagreeable aspects of life. Often, this is accomplished by keeping a low profile, agreeing with the crowd, and not questioning things (since assumptions tend to make us feel safe, like we are in a stable world, and we know all the answers). Sometimes it involves cultivating an absurdly optimistic perspective, and blatantly denying the existence of shadows. There are many ways to numb ourselves, but this is not an option for some people, who either feel things very deeply, or who possess too much intellectual integrity to lie to themselves and others, or both.

What we need to understand is that deeply sensitive people can provide early warning signs when a culture is going the wrong way. They are like canaries in a coal mine, who alert miners to the rise in carbon dioxide. Or they are like the litmus paper that is used to determine the acidity of a substance. When sensitive people start killing themselves in large numbers, it is a sign that something is very wrong with the culture, and that we need to seriously question the priorities and attitudes embraced by our culture. The main reason that people kill themselves is not because life is hard, or because they themselves are weak, cowardly, or selfish, but, because the culture as a whole exudes an atmosphere of indifference, competitiveness, and aversion to subtlety.

The eastern philosopher, Jiddu Krishnamurti, writes, "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." I repeat this quote often because I feel it expresses a realization that is greatly needed in our time. We often see everything backwards. We think that these people who cannot stand our way of life are sick, when the truth is that our way of life is sick, -- and those of us who seek to defend it are the sickest of all. Our culture, for over two thousand years now, has embraced a patriarchal, dominator mentality. This way of thinking is so deeply embedded in our world now, that most of us cannot begin to separate the ideas which come from Source from the ideas fed to us by our backwards culture. But sensitive people are often the first to sense that something is gravely wrong here. Is it any wonder that they often resort to suicide, when they're consistently told they're insane for questioning our way of life?

Dominator cultures embrace things like war, materialism, competition, and hierarchy (i.e. "winners and losers", "masters and slaves", "rich and poor", etc.). Partnership societies, like those that once flourished for thousands of years (before the ideology of conquest became the norm), and like those that still exist in small communities throughout the pre-industrial world, embrace things like family, community, cooperation, equality, spirituality, and compassion. People rarely commit suicide in these cultures. Although the use of psychedelics is always widespread in such cultures (or, perhaps, because of this?), instances of psychosis, or even neurosis, are relatively minute.

Whereas our culture's obsession with possessing things puts us in a position of having to work long hours at uninspiring jobs, partnership societies work an average of less than sixteen hours a week. Their lack of dependence on material variety provides a freedom which, in our culture, is generally reserved only for the independently wealthy; who, despite this freedom, remain slaves to their possessions. The majority of their time is not spent in mind-numbing, soul-numbing occupations far removed from their daily needs, -- but, in socializing, making art, telling stories, learning from their elders, raising their children, supporting each other, and exploring the mystical experiences generated by their intimate cooperation with nature; and the plant allies provided by nature for the spiritual well-being of humankind. In short, many of the people who end up as suicides in our culture are the rightful leaders and teachers of our people, if only we would listen to them, instead of labeling and ignoring them.

"Who has ears to hear, let them hear."

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Valus
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posted October 13, 2010 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Support for my arguments may be found here:

http://www.hsperson.com/
http://www.highlysensitivepeople.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Chalice-Blade-Our-History-Fut ure/dp/0062502891/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1286977370&sr=1-1-spell

http://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge- Evolution/dp/0553371304/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1286977403&sr=1-1

Also, proof that the "treatments" available in our culture
are frequently responsible for causing or exacerbating
the very behaviors which they claim to treat:

http://www.amazon.com/Medication -Madness-Psychiatrist-Mood-Altering-Medications/dp/B0031MA8KG/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1286977462&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Dis abling-Treatments-Psychiatry-Psychopharmaceutical/dp/082612934X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1286977462&sr=1-1

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Randall
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posted October 13, 2010 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Valus, people don't intentionally desire cancer; they just love cigs and food. Those things are pleasurable. And CARCINOGEN contains NO CANCER, so put that in your peyote pipe and smoke it. Being an advocate on immortality, I could call all deaths a suicide, since we all either consciously or unconsciously cause our own demise. I am truly amazed that people here are so supportive of suicide. Hell, let's all just join a cult and drink some Kool-Aid. It's the unselfish thing to do. I'm a pink lemonade fan myself. How about you? Fruit punch is yummy, too, but I wouldn't want to die with dye on my lips.

------------------
"Life is like a box of crayons. Most people are the 8-color boxes, but what you're really looking for are the 64-color boxes with the sharpeners on the back. I fancy myself to be a 64-color box, though I've got a few missing. It's okay though, because I've got some more vibrant colors like periwinkle at my disposal. I have a bit of a problem though in that I can only meet the 8-color boxes. Does anyone else have that problem? I mean there are so many different colors of life, of feeling, of articulation...so when I meet someone who's an 8-color type...I'm like, 'hey girl, magenta!' and she's like, 'oh, you mean purple!' and she goes off on her purple thing, and I'm like, 'no - I want magenta!'"
-John Mayer

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