posted May 30, 2011 05:55 PM            

@ ami, to me this is nothing to do with loving or not loving israel or jewish people. as i mentioned, half my family were jewish.

i do object to the kind of bigotry that says, you're 100% PRO israel no matter what - or you're a "hater" and anti-jewish. it just taint so.

it is a question of whether israel is a political pawn plopped in the middle of a region where western powers saw the need for a foothold. the fact that the area "belonged" to england, well, the commonwealth was already breaking up and the natives insisting on independence by then and it wasn't going to be worth holding onto much longer in terms of cost and manpower - and let's not forget public image... but it was worth maintaining influence. israel serves that purpose to this day and needs its allies outside the region.

it may also have seemed to some a good solution to the anti-jewish feeling in many countries where jews live, to give them a homeland to "go back to" when that rhetorical question for all immigrants "why don't you go back where you came from?" was voiced. or when someone like hitler comes along, to be sure.

though palestine was already a "safe haven" for jews and actually the jew/arab problems started THERE, not in israel.

but it wasn't just jews hitler exterminated, or tried to. as the old saying goes FIRST they came for the COMMUNISTS. then the unions, then the gypsies, then the jews...

i do not see any country earmarked for any of those other groups. so why the jews? why - excluding Jewish insistence that the bible SAYS god promised it to them - isn't there a homeland for EVERY religion and group?

these are questions that jewish people as well as others can't find the answers to.

posted May 30, 2011 10:23 PM            

the heart is a great guide, ami, but for what do you think GOD gave you a HEAD? they are both very handy instruments in my view. and there is always more than one side to any story.

posted May 30, 2011 10:55 PM            

John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend,

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL.

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

posted May 31, 2011 11:14 AM            

remember the story of king solomon and the two mothers fighting over one child? the firm refusal of either side to allow that british palestine might belong to the other led to the settlement of dividing the area in two, just as solomon suggested...only in the Bible story, the true mother understood the result would be the death of the child and gave up her right to it willingly. in palestine, the immigrant jews refused to admit that the arabs were being invaded...by them. and it was "rome" who made the decision, not the bible.

but really the israel situation is very like every other where one power takes over property inhabited by natives of another land. when we "won" mexico territory and made it part of the US, it was the home of many mexicans. whether or not the governments agreed on the settlement, people were disinherited. like the arabs who remained on the land while early jews LEFT FOR GREENER PASTURES, the mexicans still resent this settlement. no amount of american self-righteousness will change this.

that is why i say it was always a problem waiting to explode, from day 1.

whatever the bible says, people are people and they tend to be territorial about their homes and resist being removed from them. whether the arabs agreed to what seemed like the better of two portions at the time or not, it is not just "envy" that makes them want the rest back.

the israelis - and arabs - who prefer a peaceful situation are the true "mother" and should be allowed to stay, in my opinion. what is that commandment? THOU SHALT NOT COvET.

posted May 31, 2011 11:18 AM            

this is why so many people no longer recognize formal religions, because instead of leading to understanding, which is what religion and belief in god were intended to do, they INSIST ON BARRIERS and the rejection of others' right to believe as they do.

MOST of the wars in this world have been fought in the name of GOD, and due to the belief that one people's god is THE god, so others' must be FALSE.

posted May 31, 2011 12:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by katatonic:
and i'm sorry but to call yourself a "true believer" while excluding a majority of the human race and THEIR faith, which is just as important and holy to them as yours is to you, is a closed circuit.

this is why so many people no longer recognize formal religions, because instead of leading to understanding, which is what religion and belief in god were intended to do, they INSIST ON BARRIERS and the rejection of others' right to believe as they do.

MOST of the wars in this world have been fought in the name of GOD, and due to the belief that one people's god is THE god, so others' must be FALSE.

does this sound like something jesus would have endorsed?

---

Jesus endorsed ONE way
Men made the wars not Jesus

posted May 31, 2011 12:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by katatonic:
that's fine. but jesus' way was not the same as the jewish way was it?

and did he not say "let he amongst you who has not sinned cast the first stone?" and point out to those who stuck rigidly to the LETTER OF THE LAW that mary magdalene had more faith than they?

---

Good One. I am impressed

posted May 31, 2011 12:45 PM            

my point exactly. to fight over ownership of territory is to DENY god, not honour him.

but men are manifestations of God, also jesus' assertion. whatever name one uses for the divine.

posted May 31, 2011 03:37 PM            

you will notice that apart from religious technical terms the word pontificate basically means talking out of your arse...

and while i appreciate that you are trying to say you don't want to preach to the unwilling, it still would belong in DD... this is a discussion of the politics of the israel SNAFU.

the bible, ami, like statistics and polls, can be used to back up pretty much any stance one takes.

posted May 31, 2011 04:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by katatonic:
that's fine. but jesus' way was not the same as the jewish way was it?

and did he not say "let he amongst you who has not sinned cast the first stone?" and point out to those who stuck rigidly to the LETTER OF THE LAW that mary magdalene had more faith than they?

---

Ok this was the post I wanted to answer Kat.
Was Jesus' way the same as the Jewish way?
Yes and No.

Your asking the question shows a mind set which is rampant ,if not universal among church members or those brought up in the church.
It has error as it's foundation.As such, the whole house on which it is built/the religious philosophy is wrong.

Why the error? Well, I will get to that later after I explain the error lol