posted April 25, 2013 02:57 AM            

-whom women will sleep with as they meet them
-whom women want a relationship with
-the curious female impulse to "fix" men.

For myself, the first one never appealed to me as my bar for attraction is..have to like you mentally.

However, as a man, that is my preference, women however, the best way I can put this, just based on experience and observation is:

There are times, for lack of a better term, when the female mind sort of..shuts down, not that it doesn't happen to men mind you.

However, big smile, wide eyes, lots of head bobbing, this I've seen often and it generally causes a "WTH?" reaction from me..

But for them, the tattoo'ed drunk guy raising cane at the place is just the object of desire..literally.

posted April 25, 2013 07:28 AM            

The women who I've seen actively pursue "bad boys" (usu. = narcissists who are at least mildly verbally/emotionally abusive and/or controlling) - and who sometimes *actively* take advantage of/walk all over/abuse the kindness of "nice guys" (men who would treat them with respect and kindness...and expect respectful, kind treatment in return) - had shite or nonexistent dads.
They'll pursue the AH in a twisted attempt to gain the kind of male attention with which they're comfortable - dismissive, abusive, cruel.
They're not subjectively happy while it's happening, but it pushes some button that they're looking to get pushed.
And some will happily reciprocate with their own cruel, manipulative, even abusive behavior - it's how they know to interact, what's comfortable.

That's not to say that all women with crappy dads will walk down that path - some actively work to change their perceptions, some have a visceral reaction against similar traits.

Hell, my Dad's an emotionally abusive, controlling, manipulative alcoholic, and to this day I can't abide even mustaches - something he wore throughout my childhood.
I have to say, though - it still surprises me each time my husband treats me with gentility, gentleness, kindness, and regard...
...he's a really great guy, though, so I get to be surprised constantly throughout the day

posted April 25, 2013 09:51 AM            

Low esteem guys really don't apeal to me no matter the flowers, dates, listening ears or anything... confidence is the single most important factor in a man that matters to me... and a good caring gentle heart. In fact, I once fell for this really good guy who was always there for me and would talk to me til 4-5am til i get tired and sleep - and he confessed that he never made that much effort to any of his ex girlfriends or even his now wife. Well, he never had the confidence to pursue me, his words - he never thought i would fall for him.

posted April 25, 2013 10:45 AM            

'Just had to blurt out that I think most people are only partially rotten. Maybe a guy looks like a jerk from the outside but treats his woman well. Is he a jerk? Or maybe he provides for her needs, cleans the house, shows he cares a number of ways, but has a foul mouth and is insulting when agitated. What category do we place him in, good or bad?

Everything's complicated.

I think we just get used to people and their flaws because nobody is perfect, and if you want to be with someone, you have to allow for the fact that they aren't perfect. So maybe at first their flaws seem like a big deal and then you become inured to them, as you weigh the pros and cons of the relationship.

posted April 25, 2013 12:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:

Thing is T, there are a couple of things at play here:

-whom women will sleep with as they meet them
-whom women want a relationship with
-the curious female impulse to "fix" men.

For myself, the first one never appealed to me as my bar for attraction is..have to like you mentally.

However, as a man, that is my preference, women however, the best way I can put this, just based on experience and observation is:

There are times, for lack of a better term, when the female mind sort of..shuts down, not that it doesn't happen to men mind you.

However, big smile, wide eyes, lots of head bobbing, this I've seen often and it generally causes a "WTH?" reaction from me..

But for them, the tattoo'ed drunk guy raising cane at the place is just the object of desire..literally.

THIS I've never understood, Attraction is just so primal that it really cannot be reduced to writing imo.

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Hi Padre. Thanks for your answer.

as to:

quote:

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-whom women will sleep with as they meet them
-whom women want a relationship with
-the curious female impulse to "fix" men.

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I can only speak personally (and about what I've observed).

When I meet someone the last thing on my mind is if we will be sleeping together at some point. I might think i misunderstood that first statement...

Like you do, I have to like the person mentally first and foremost as well, or we won't be moving on from there.

I've heard about this 'curioius female impulse to 'fix' men, but I have not experienced the desire to do so. At the point that I like a man, I like him for his flaws too. Then again, I don't typically go for someone I think needs some major work done on them. Partly because I realize that is mostly always up the the individual to do. No one is perfect and we all have our issues to sort out, but I tend not to go for guys that initially seem like real pieces of work and completely broken.

I'm not quite sure if this is mostly another myth we hear about too often either. Sure some women are attracted to someone they think they can fix, i'm sure it happens, but for the most part, I think as a whole they are looking for someone strong and stable and someone who won't drain them.

quote:

---

However, as a man, that is my preference, women however, the best way I can put this, just based on experience and observation is:

There are times, for lack of a better term, when the female mind sort of..shuts down, not that it doesn't happen to men mind you.

---

I think it is safe to say it happens with men more often, as you guys always say - you are visual creatures, if you know what I mean.

quote:

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However, big smile, wide eyes, lots of head bobbing, this I've seen often and it generally causes a "WTH?" reaction from me..

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That is the cases with most men I know, with the exception of a small few, who love that kind of thing (a seemingly dumb, loose bimbo type). I know a couple of guys who prefer that (not for the long term usually) because they see someone they can take advantage of.

quote:

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But for them, the tattoo'ed drunk guy raising cane at the place is just the object of desire..literally.

---

While that does happen and there are females that love a guy like that, I don't find the majority do. Most females don't want to be around that type either. Most of them will run from the belligerant, clearly angry, usually dumb and potentially dangerous violent unstable guy who is making a fool out of himself in public. He comes across as weak and not able to control himself. Never attractive.

quote:

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THIS I've never understood, Attraction is just so primal that it really cannot be reduced to writing imo.

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I guess for some that primal attraction only goes skin deep. Some females as well as males, have a type - a physical type and they stick to it. Which can cause all kinds of problems once the allure of how one looks or dresses or appears on the outside wears off.

I realized I myself really don't have a type.......looking back on relationships and the different guys i've dated. What's going on inside, the real person is most important to me. I can find someone attractive and then as soon as they open their mouth become somewhat repulsed.

I find for the most part, both sexes feel this way towards new people. Some people might overlook that type of thing because they only care about the physical attractiveness or just want to try and get laid that night. I really think that when you guys talk about these stereotypes, you are most often talking about the small minority of females who do whatever it is you are talking about....

but maybe focus too much on it, so that all women appear that way to you, or a large majority of them....

posted April 25, 2013 12:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by lilithpluto:

I really dislike guys who whine about how wrong the woman population is. I have dated guys like that and to me, it feels ungentlemanly of him to have to spoil the entire date whining about how sad his love life was and secretly hoping hinting I'll turn out different and that I will prove him wrong. As much as I want to be kind, this is intolerable for me. Everyone has some certain esteem issue or are nervous when talking to opposite sex. Well, talk about the weather, traveling, your work if that is what gets your confidence up. Talk about your hobbies - something that put some spark into your eyes. That's drop dead attractive to watch a man talk about what he loves and you see the confidence shinning through. Not boring self-pity sad stories... leave it after you are comfortable as friends first.. assuming one is looking for geninue relationship.

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posted April 25, 2013 01:05 PM            

At the end of the day people won’t remember what you said or did, they will remember how you made them feel.
- Maya Angelou

Because while I have dealt with some major turmoil and have not forgotten about it, my focus goes to the better parts of people i've known and the relationships we've had.

I feel lucky in that I have not become completely bitter (somehow) even though at the present time I am not interested in a relationship.

posted April 25, 2013 01:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by T:
I've a lot of respect and admiration for men in general. So I could not date someone who did not have the same kinds of feelings or attitude towards women.

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quote:

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Originally posted by T:
At the end of the day people won’t remember what you said or did, they will remember how you made them feel.
- Maya Angelou

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I wanted to comment on this one, too.

My ex whom I loved did some awful things. If I just told the stories, people could conclude that he was a jerk. Only a jerk would cheat, only a jerk would put a girl through what he put me through.

posted April 25, 2013 01:30 PM            

I hear you sista.

posted April 25, 2013 03:32 PM            

Making YOUR assumptions or observations about it is pointless.

So what if YOU think he's a jerk, she obviously doesn't.

People have their own experiences in their own time for THEIR OWN JOURNEY.

To deny these experiences, or to act as if these women are "dumb" or any other such insult that you choose to call her based on YOUR opinion of her choices, is denying another person their right to create their own destiny.

End of story.

posted April 25, 2013 03:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ghanima81:
I simply have to comment that NOBODY on the outside of a relationship knows what goes on within it.

Making YOUR assumptions or observations about it is pointless.

So what if YOU think he's a jerk, she obviously doesn't.

People have their own experiences in their own time for THEIR OWN JOURNEY.

To deny these experiences, or to act as if these women are "dumb" or any other such insult that you choose to call her based on YOUR opinion of her choices, is denying another person their right to create their own destiny.

End of story.

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posted April 25, 2013 04:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I wanted to comment on this one, too.

My ex whom I loved did some awful things. If I just told the stories, people could conclude that he was a jerk. Only a jerk would cheat, only a jerk would put a girl through what he put me through.

But you know something? He never insulted me. He almost never criticized, and when he did, it was only about very minor stuff, in a lighthearted way. His sensitivity to my moods was phenomenal...so I valued what we had. The good over the bad.

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posted April 25, 2013 05:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ghanima81:
I simply have to comment that NOBODY on the outside of a relationship knows what goes on within it.

Making YOUR assumptions or observations about it is pointless.

So what if YOU think he's a jerk, she obviously doesn't.

People have their own experiences in their own time for THEIR OWN JOURNEY.

To deny these experiences, or to act as if these women are "dumb" or any other such insult that you choose to call her based on YOUR opinion of her choices, is denying another person their right to create their own destiny.

End of story.

---

another thumbs way up.

That TOO!

posted April 25, 2013 05:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
how exactly does a man who cheats and does awful things make a woman feel good? Its like my mom who always feels soo sorry for my dad and talks about what a great heart he has. Its as if the 14 years of his compulsive cheating, verbal/physical abuse, drug/alcohol addiction,giving her an std,getting fired from a good job because he was out screwing other women,and not paying child support never happened. I love my dad and he has changed but my mom acts like he is a saint who had such a hard life.

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In the case of your mom I'd have to guess she was raised in an extremely abusive household. And in her case she probably couldn't stand be treated decent as it would feel all "wrong" and not the least bit comforting (as she would constantly be wondering when the other shoe was about to drop).

And even without the abuse it amazes me what women used to put up with. After I heard plenty of women who came of age in the 60s, even women on hippie communes who were given the rights of children but responsibilities of mothers, I really understood why the feminism of the 70s was so enraged, even hateful...I imagine I'd have been burning my own bra if treated like that myself. (Though since you haven't gotten the memo the "man-hating feminism" pretty much fell out of favor by the early 80s, at least in the mainstream, though I suppose it simmered a bit through the Satanic Panics. Oh, and plenty of women are not feminists, especially not back in the 1970s.)

posted April 25, 2013 06:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

In the case of your mom I'd have to guess she was raised in an extremely abusive household. And in her case she probably couldn't stand be treated decent as it would feel all "wrong" and not the least bit comforting (as she would constantly be wondering when the other shoe was about to drop).

And even without the abuse it amazes me what women used to put up with. After I heard plenty of women who came of age in the 60s, even women on hippie communes who were given the rights of children but responsibilities of mothers, I really understood why the feminism of the 70s was so enraged, even hateful...I imagine I'd have been burning my own bra if treated like that myself. (Though since you haven't gotten the memo the "man-hating feminism" pretty much fell out of favor by the early 80s, at least in the mainstream, though I suppose it simmered a bit through the Satanic Panics. Oh, and plenty of women are not feminists, especially not back in the 1970s.)

She may have also been raised with the, "Every thing a man does is because of the woman" (which generally translates as, "Everything good is because of him, everything bad is because of her") which used to be a lot stronger, and in that case she may have never outgrown that programming (so that she blames herself for your dad's misdeeds). But knowing how my mom treated MY dad, and how vengeful she was, I shudder to imagine what she'd have done to YOUR dad.

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posted April 25, 2013 07:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
In any case, AG, your mother is not normal. And if she's "normal" in your neck of the woods then there is something in the drinking water down there, because they'd be considered freaks about everywhere else. The media (that is what people buy into) should dispel the notion that women like your mom are anything normal.

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posted April 26, 2013 12:24 AM            

So I no longer trust those who consider themselves to be "nice guys". He wanted to be bad, to attract the women he complained so much about. He was a douche.

posted April 26, 2013 12:32 AM            

When my 12-year-old loaned me her copy of Twilight (loving it and hoping I would, too) I found it hard to get through (I loved some descriptive parts and was grudgingly impressed how the author was careful not to date the book so well, for example Bella doesn't listen to Kelly Clarkson, she listens to her "favorite CD" which increases both its marketability & shelf life). But the story...I honestly couldn't decide who was more annoying, Bella or Edward, and BOTH of them were stalkers (typical of their gender, with Edward being the scary type).

Yet I can see why this appeals so much to tween girls. Speaking in terms of the hardcore fans, this is the world they dream about (in the case of high schoolers, actually live in to some extent), and Bella quite cleverly is much of what many want to be: beautiful--though she doesn't know it pulling an "ugly duckling turning into a swan" (Bella's last name!) when she moves in with her dad--and petite and desirable while giving her a flaw to be self-conscious over (in addition to not being aware of how beautiful she really is, because it does not do to think she's "all that" or vain, that would get a lot of girls to hate her instead of that mix of relating to her while still being able to fantasize being her) so as to be relatable. Clumsiness was especially good given how clumsy so many tweens & teens feel, both literally (growing bodies!) and metaphorically, and I think a great many know they aren't the amazing dancers like the kids they see on TV. While Edward's family treated Bella in a somewhat demeaning (but well meaning) way, that's something many tweens are used to anyway (probably an improvement over their own family), and many kids have so little privacy or power over their own lives that it probably doesn't seem strange how Edward treated Bella.

Nevertheless, I did not want my girl to think Bella was healthy or that her relationship with Edward was something to desire. At least in my case I was able to get her much better role models for femininity and romantic relationships in Buffy (no matter how tragic they tend to be, and of course mistakes are still made as they inevitably will in real life, but they usually learn from them, and I can work with that anyway), and bonus points for not saying you have to find the love of your life before you graduate high school. Speaking of which, one of my YT favorites, Buffy vs. Edward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZwM3GvaTRM

Luckily the Hunger Games came out and that seemed to eclipse Twilight (I've heard the school boys are grateful to be dragged to see Hunger Games instead of Twilight, too ). I was ok with my girl putting up posters of Josh Hutcherson (and one of Peeta) instead.

Btw, me and my girl (and boy) saw the Angel series for the first time together and she and I both saw similarities in the ep Eternity. Angel saves a helpless woman by stopping a vehicle with his hand from hitting her, like Bella the actress figures out her savior is a vampire, says she's not afraid, and wants to be like him while Angel (like Edward, and it occurs to me that sometimes Angel's hair looks a lot like Edward's in the movies ) resists and warns just how dangerous he is to her and how she can't know what it means. Likewise, despite pushing her away Angel follows the actress around and saves her from danger repeatedly just as Edward does to Bella. Angel/us also can read people so well that he might as well be able to read minds like Edward. Bella has low self esteem despite everyone loving her just like the actress did. Even the drugged drink making Angel temporarily into Angelus somehow felt like Edward getting all upset as the scent of Bella's blood intoxicated him (and made him not that nice and very dangerous to her). IOW, this ep was MUCH MORE REALISTIC what guys like Edward are like (in the metaphoric sense, of course), and that made me love it.

Anyway, it's possible Twilight won't affect your niece much (though really her peers are much more likely to impose their values than any book she reads, unless she's exceptionally self-confident in which case she'll have more self-respect anyway, or will quickly find it once she finds a bad boy or a stalking control freak like Edward).