posted April 24, 2013 06:32 AM            

It may be that these women want to be adventurous, sexually free and expressive, not care so much about what people think and so forth. However, they are so caught up in trying to be someone they think other people want them to be. So these bad boys are enablers, the women use them to justify to themselves that what they are doing is acceptable and not perhaps not fully their responsibility. I am not suggesting nor saying all women are like this. Only a very small minority. Besides, it tends to be at a younger age when women are still exploring themselves. Their psyches, what they enjoy, what they tolerate, what they don't tolerate, and what they don't like.

It is 100% possible for men to be attracted to bad girls for exactly the same reasons, they feel it justifies them to 'let loose' or remove some responsibility and culpability for their actions.

If women want to have a relationship with a bad boy, that is completely their choice. They are allowed complete control over their life and life decisions. One of my ex-es dated what some people may say was a bad boy. He was a drug user, decided to leave school and start working at 16, a few other minor things she spoke to me about that seem pretty inconsequential to me. My point is, I didn't know anything about him, his life, their relationship, and it is not my place to judge whether someone is good or bad. The only thing I cared about, is whether or not he mistreated her. And I don't mean, oh he didn't hold the door for her, offer her is jacket, pull out her chair for her, stand up when she approaches. I'm talking any kind of abusive behaviour, verbal, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual and so on. Otherwise it is none of my business, I chose to move on. Likewise if one of my girl friends complains about a guy, I'll sit and listen, and I will empathise but they've made their decision and it is their learning experience. I will help if they ask for it, but I will never make a decision for them, only help them on their path of self discovery.

I think a major problem is that women are in general less assertive than men. I am not saying, Women will let men get away with things. I'm saying Women will not always make choices with only their own interests. In that way Women are less selfish and more considerate than men. Equally, men can be too selfish and too inconsiderate.

It isn't necessarily upbringing, education, parents that affect the stereo-typical images of both men and women. Society has a huge amount of responsibility. Society impresses upon Men, as driven, ambitious, money and goal oriented, work a job, earn money, pay for a family and education, house, care etc. And for women those areas are less important. I know I have just completely failed by not stating what society impresses upon women, actually, the image for women is to be seen as the perfect do it alls. They need to have a job, a social life, take care of the kids, cook, clean, look good, exercise stay thin etc. Society impresses the need to live an impossible lifestyle on a lot of women.

I realise a lot of my thoughts here are probably incoherent and non-sensical. Society impresses different things upon men and women. Typically for women, failure is to not live up to this impossibly perfect image. Typically for men, it is to be seen as weak, maybe anything considered "un-manly".

-Chris

posted April 25, 2013 08:04 PM            

When I think of bad boys who get a lot of girls, Pitta comes to mind.

posted April 26, 2013 02:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
This string is not for discussing what is wrong with the bad boy philosophy or what is wrong with women who like bad boys. This is just for women who do like them. Why do you like them? I have heard that it's because you like the allure of thinking they might change for you. What's the deal?

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posted April 26, 2013 02:55 PM            

They seem to take you to this new place, where you are OK like Dorothy when she was transported to a new world. However, with them, this honeymoon period is a mirage and it turns abusive.

Then, they confirm your original viewpoint of yourself and your self esteem goes even lower.

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 26, 2013 04:32 PM            

Faith,

Wow. Weird and interesting! Not sure I agree, though..

Ami Anne,

I agree with you.

I think there are various reasons, some are more superficial than others. It may range from "he's (outwardly) self-confident/manly/dominant and I like that in a man" to an actual psychological factor, something that has to do with feeling unworthy of good treatment and love and care.

A lot of women find themselves undesirable, so when a guy - especially a "bad boy", cause they're usually quite popular with the opposite sex - pays attention to them, they feel more alive, like they have more value. "Maybe I'm not that unattractive after all" type of thing (I know this is stereotypical and probably applies to young women more but you get the point).

But, as Ami pointed out, usually what happens is that bad guys confirm their core belief - that they're unattractive, unworthy, flawed - and it can quickly become a negative pattern, where the women believe that they don't deserve to be loved (more unconsciously than consciously) and therefore, they put themselves in situations that will confirm that belief.

posted April 26, 2013 04:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
Thing is "bad boys" don't wear signs.

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posted April 26, 2013 06:16 PM            

If a women does not wish to speak with them, they don't get concerned, pretty much it'll be "..welll screw them.." and that is the end of it.

Treat a woman poorly?

Literally, they will blame her 100%

A break up?

it's on her, did all I could

Point being they always keep their self image intact whether they realize that is what they are doing or not. That refusal to take any level of personal responsiblity or to create self doubt in themselves is sort of their modus operandi.

The only way to really know that about someone else is to know them personally, the woman who is entangled with them does not have that level of personal knowledge b/c..wait for it..they don't tell them.

posted April 26, 2013 07:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Chris Makes sense, to me.

Faith,

Wow. Weird and interesting! Not sure I agree, though..

Ami Anne,

I agree with you.

I think there are various reasons, some are more superficial than others. It may range from "he's (outwardly) self-confident/manly/dominant and I like that in a man" to an actual psychological factor, something that has to do with feeling unworthy of good treatment and love and care.

A lot of women find themselves undesirable, so when a guy - especially a "bad boy", cause they're usually quite popular with the opposite sex - pays attention to them, they feel more alive, like they have more value. "Maybe I'm not that unattractive after all" type of thing (I know this is stereotypical and probably applies to young women more but you get the point).

But, as Ami pointed out, usually what happens is that bad guys confirm their core belief - that they're unattractive, unworthy, flawed - and it can quickly become a negative pattern, where the women believe that they don't deserve to be loved (more unconsciously than consciously) and therefore, they put themselves in situations that will confirm that belief.

I guess it depends on each individual but there seems to be more to it than just what's on the surface.

---

Yes, dear one.

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 26, 2013 07:52 PM            

Where the bad boys really have the advantage is they're willing to lie AND put themselves out there, so they're going to get more nibbles than someone more conscious, with conscience, and tells a less exciting (and perhaps less flattering) truth. And as plenty of women desire sex but can feel bad in pursuing it (especially if it's anything kinky) then the bad boys seem likely to be the one to "take the lead (and thus the responsibility)" and one shouldn't underestimate how stupid a frustrated sex drive can make someone, especially someone fed unrealistic fantasies (porn for men, and erotica for women like Fifty Shades of Grey).

And finally, women are raised from a young age to believe she can, and should, change a guy. Beauty and the Beast is a classic trope of this (where with enough love she can turn a beast into a prince), even Disney's sanitized version of it. Romance novels are also filled with this drivel, and the rake or pirate (or modern day equivalent) is a common love interest, heck even the fairly feminist Ever After had this trope (though the rake was more immature & spoiled rather than wild & bad as the classic rake, but even so the heroine made an admirable man out of him through the transformative power of her love). Even in Soul Unions I saw a post saying that HIS behavior (how he treated her, etc) was all the woman's responsibility, and absurd statements can only be made like that and believed if one is brainwashed to believe it from an early age. Of course plenty of girls have really poor examples of a father (and mother), too, and that doesn't help either. Oftentimes this woman believes he's just misunderstood (*) and that she CAN and WILL change him with the power of her love, and he will reward her with a life of love & devotion.

(*But it should be noted that guys have an image to uphold like girls and thus may appear to be a lot worse than he is in public while showing a softer, gentler, and more loving side when alone with her. But is he showing her his true self that he's hiding from the rest of the world, or is he just playing her and laughing about it with his friends after?)

That said, some females gravitate to this type knowingly and willfully, and at least in some cases don't even care if she can change him (may not even want to). Generally speaking she's just as bad (they probably woke up together with vague memories of the party they did a bunch of drugs at) and only he can understand (or even put up with) her. And if she's not a kindred spirit then probably finds him exciting (similar to how a few guys find it exciting to do donuts with their car on the highway, it's flirting with danger that spices it up), and if she can tick off her parents (or others who judge her), or even shake off her "good girl" image (assuming she has one), then so much the better. Some also enjoy the attention (that is knowing others are tutting and gossiping about her because she's with him, she doesn't care the attention is negative, just so long as she has it). For more on this type you can see Ke$ha's vid Die Young and Tik Tok.

posted April 26, 2013 08:25 PM            

quote:

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"he's (outwardly) self-confident/manly/dominant and I like that in a man

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I sort of disagree... because it is inbuilt in liking a bad boy - that you would have psychological issues.

Because even interpreting such behaviour as "confident" and "manly" is completely distorted from my perspective.

These men are basically attacking women.
Men who harm or attack women - should normally be seen as cowardly, not strong --- according to a *healthy* definition of strength.

posted April 26, 2013 09:22 PM            

I especially found this intriguing and likely:

quote:

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Some have sought an explanation for such choices in the psychological mechanism of splitting: "Women tend to split off their detested parts like hate, envy, and bad-girl aspects", so that "bad-girl parts stay behind closed doors, only to come out to play with bad-boy lovers".[5] There is then "a split between love for men they see as good, dependable and reliable, and desire for men they see as exciting, reckless, and dangerous...bad boys".[6]

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posted April 26, 2013 09:52 PM            

quote:

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women tend to split off their detested parts like hate, envy, and bad-girl aspects

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Well for those if us on LL, knowing what we know about astrological influences - this really seems like a generalisation and not one that is all that applicable at present in the Western world.
There may well be people out there, male or female, who for religious or other reasons want to negate their own "bad" side... or their sexuality.

However this is not really a pattern for a majority of women. As T pointed out in her thread a great majority if women actually do not end up with bad boys nor do they seem all that into this prototype.

As I was saying, bringing astrology into this can you imagine a woman with strong Leo Aries Scorpio Sagittarius type influences - feeling as though she has to shut down her "bad girl" side and conforming to some standard of proper behaviour?
I have in mind a woman in my generation 20s, 30s - born and brought up in a Western country.
Honestly - it is VERY unlikely.

This may be true for some women, but it would depend on other factors. I think it would be 10 times more likely to find a Cancer or Taurus influenced woman in her 50s-70s who would feel this way or who could tell you stories about having felt this way when she was younger.

posted April 26, 2013 09:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

And most tragically, some women have concluded that all men are such vile beasts but has no choice but to find one to protect her in this man's world that she finds one she thinks she can live with, and any actual nice guys she meets generally don't want a woman with this little self-respect or sees him in such a way unless he's one of those "savior" types in which case he'll either drive her off with his confusing kindness (or she'll reject him as "weak") or he WILL save her but then he loses interest in her when she no longer needs saving.

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This is one thing that scared me, and was one reason why I didn't want to date when I was agoraphobic: I was afraid of attracting someone like that, who would need me to appear weak and to need him that much - I was always curious when the young, female friends of mine who were also agoraphobic, ended up in relationships and rushed off to get married quickly - curious as to whether or not the husband was exploiting their weakness, and if it would last. (This is how my sister met her husband, and I feel that he did exploit that weakness: when they broke up about ten years ago, she burst into tears ans said that she had no-one.)

The one guy opened me up in ways. I thought he was jut shy, but he wasn't even an exciting, sexy "bad boy" - he was just a sad douchebag, who hurt me every time he came back into my life. I remember when I finally got it through to him that I'd been agoraphobic and was still living with family, at the age of 32. It took *a lot* for me to admit it, but I liked him that much, and since he had no social life, I thought he would understand. He disappeared on me for weeks, ignored my birthday, and I was more isolated than ever, due to my dad's new job keeping him away at all hours of the day and evening (until gone 9pm), so I had no chance to meet anyone (no buses available). He came back into my life about a month or so later, after I stupidly initiate contact, only to disappear on me again when I lost my temper over something.

What got to me with him, wasn't so much him at the time - although I had been really attracted to what I thought was a handsome, decent guy. It was that I admitted something to him that scared me to open up about - and he rejected me. My Summer was unfortunaltey mostly ruined by that, not because of the one rejection, but because he'd confirmed my worst fear: I thought that everyone would respond the same way.

My life has sucked ever since, although it's been more than that. He drove me crazy, and my sister finished the job. I've been trying to avoid men like that my whole life. He crippled me where I most needed help. Five years later (!) and I'm back where I started. only I have no hope left.

posted April 26, 2013 11:16 PM            

quote:

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a male who behaves badly, especially towards women.

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What's your definition Kerosene?

I based my replies on ---- a guy behaving badly in the sense of intentionally harming others (usually women) psychologically or physically.

quote:

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not all blonde bombshells are stupid and superficial even if thats the image they purposely convey to others.

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If they simply have the reputation for bad-boy-ish behaviour (for whatever reason) - and the reputation is not actually *true*... then obviously they wouldn't be a bad boy, per se.

posted April 26, 2013 11:26 PM            

Hmm
I've actually rarely known any ladies who dated an actual bad person who is dangerous to others and abusive.
I would imagine anyone who dated a bad person who is a possibly a criminal is not really a saint either or has some issues...

In my experience its anyone can be abusive even if they appear nice.

Are there women or people actually attracted to criminals or knowing before hand they're abusive?

posted April 26, 2013 11:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kerosene:
What do you mean "bad boy"?
The stereotype or an actual bad person?
Just because someone has the the persona of a bad boy but that does not mean they're actually a bad person.
The bad boy is a classic sex symbol.

For instant not all blonde bombshells are stupid and superficial even if thats the image they purposely convey to others. They can be profound too, marilyn monroe is an example.
Honestly I never here women complaining about guys dating "dumb skinny blondes"..
Why? because..
Men aren't use to being "objectified" because not too long ago women were treated like property. Why does she not like me? I'm a man!!! Its not fairrrr.

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posted April 26, 2013 11:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kerosene:
We've all heard of women who end up in abusive relationships because they had no idea the guy was a monster but seeking out one is just.. weird..
I've actually never met a girl who purposely wanted that..
Maybe social network is full well adjusted people idk..

Well maybe they like being abused idk..
Maybe its like fetish lol.

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posted April 27, 2013 12:00 AM            

When it comes to attraction, and affairs of the heart, one really should not involve oneself in them on a personal level.

Here is why, the factors that went into creating them, one can never know, one can only assume and usually incorrectly.

To me, one is far better served not hand wringing over others' actions and to be concerned with one's own relations instead.

posted April 27, 2013 12:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
I have in mind a woman in my generation 20s, 30s - born and brought up in a Western country.
Honestly - it is VERY unlikely

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I don't find it unlikely. I'm 30 and was raised with a generation that included many who had 2 sides as described like that. Now maybe that was because it was Texas, but I've seen the same thing in the new generation in California.

Ever see a movie called Thirteen? This was supposedly based on a true story (and for some reason many think this is "normal" behavior for 13-year-olds when even in the movie the girls were ostracized by most of their school for acting like that), yet I was in Venice when the true events supposedly happened. While I'm not saying it's completely unbelievable (some parts did push credulity for me, but still plausible), those social elements (from specialty shops to advertisements to behavior) do exist (though it's only a small part of Venice), but kids were still fairly prudish, and the s-label is still one girls can get all too easily, even there. And many do split, I suppose because we live in a dualistic society in which we divide things up into 2 categories like Yin and Yang (more like God and Satan) and refuse to find balance/integration between them.