posted April 27, 2013 12:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kerosene:
Do they convey the image or does she have **** luck with guys?

---

posted April 27, 2013 12:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kerosene:
California?
Maybe in the 90's california is very progressive, young feminists are everywhere I go!

---

The only part I've seen like that is Frisco. Granted, there were communities in West Hollywood and also Hillcrest in San Diego (plus the vicinity of almost any college) but California in general isn't as progressive as many think. Remember, Prop 8 passed here by majority vote (among other things I could point out).

And mainstream feminism at least isn't something that I'd think would, um, prevent splitting. I'm curious what you mean by "feminist" because I don't see what that has to do with anything. Sex-positive feminism and the like (which I'm guessing you're referring to) isn't the norm, there's still a lot of control and sexual repression (of a different sort) involved...long story, and since I'm not even sure why it was mentioned I won't try to explain what I mean by that right now.

posted April 27, 2013 12:27 AM            

Idk thats how they describe themselves. Girls around my age call themselves feminists even thou they behave semi misandric to straight guys etc. This considered cool because of internet culture too.

posted April 27, 2013 12:31 AM            

quote:

---

I don't find it unlikely

---

My sentence was connected to the one above it.
I wasn't saying that it is unlikely for *all* women in their 20s/30s.

I was saying that a woman with strong Aries-Leo-Scorpio-Sagittarius influences... who is in her 20s/30s in the Western world.... would be much less likely to have such negative views about her sexuality or to want to "split off" her - bad girl side (as the article puts it) -------- in comparison to ------- a woman who has more traditional signs in her chart e.g. Taurus/Cancer and who was born in a different generation.

I was saying that it is a huge generalisation to say that women... in general... want to disconnect from the "bad girl" inside --- or that women feel this way more than men do.

We do receive religious/political/legal - messages regarding behaviour that is acceptable and behaviour that is not. Many people - male or female, would not want to see themselves as potential murderers.. for instance -- but given certain circumstances, maybe they would be capable of murder.

If you do not like the references to astrology - then we could go by psychological type.
Some people - male or female - are more rebellious than others, depending on their psychological make-up. Some people - male or female - are more comfortable with their own animality than others.

I do however believe that there are some blatantly obvious astrological influences and patterns - which impact on the way people express their sexuality - and on how prone they are to obeying outer messages about proper/improper behaviour (e.g. a woman with an Aries Venus and Mars conjunction square Uranus - would have more issues expressing the "good" girl inside... rather than the "bad" girl inside.. which would come naturally to her).

Society is made up of many different individuals..
When I pay close attention to the individuals around me - I see people who strongly diverge from these 'classic' stereotypes.

Every second woman I know is sexually expressive and out there, not so inhibited.

posted April 27, 2013 12:44 AM            

quote:

---

These girls basically are offended when men objectify them etc They obviously would not date abusive guys.

---

posted April 27, 2013 04:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kerosene:
Also San Francisco.
I lived in california all my life, yes there are crappy little towns in the desert but thats basically another world
Plus there are people who come from different parts of the country and the world but majority does no accept patriarchy or traditional american ideals.

---

Don't forget the Jefferson (the REAL Northern CA, though should they actually secede then maybe the Bay Area can finally be right to call themselves that). Though Arcata was certainly interesting...officially it was fairly conservative in the "leave me alone" sense as much of the rest of the region but there was a major stoner element and I think the large college also helped alter the area as well. For whatever reason it was very progressive for a small town, though many authority figures (such as the police) were less than happy about it.

It could be that I've been around some very progressive and radical elements so I define progressive differently than say many liberal Democrats do who are actually right wing moderates in my book (with Republicans being extremists by 2009, unless you want to measure them next to certain infamous dictators of the first half of the 20th century). And perhaps my being part of the gun culture (especially before 2009) has gotten me more exposure to the conservative & right wing elements of CA (and oh, the horrid gym that blared FOX News at us), and my mixing with the gay community has seen how much hostility there is toward gays (most of it inspired by Christianity), and btw one woman thought it was ok to say gays were more likely to be child molesters but took offense when I told her that most child molesters were men regardless of whether it was a girl or boy molested.

While there's no way I'd mistake most of California for Texas (especially rural CA vs. rural TX) it's still not anywhere as progressive as it's made out to be in Texas and conservative media. For example, many (if not most) places having zoning and schedule demands on anything related to porn (can't recall which case and too many to sift through but the 9th Circuit once said that policing against people wanking in the alley of a porn shop is more deserving of police attention than robbery, rape, and home invasions and therefore laws passed to keep them closed at certain hours was upheld to free up the police), which granted it isn't the same as Texas going after dildo runners (you know, you can own as many guns as you can afford, but the number of sex toys is strictly regulated!), but CA isn't like Castro in Frisco as many would make it out to be either (certain areas excepted). It's true CA schools don't restrict themselves to abstinence-only as Texas does but many sex ed teachers show a lot of discomfort about teaching it all the same (doesn't help that there's always a few kids who try to press that discomfort for their own amusement), and though some school boards are liberal, others are dominated by the evangelicals (though I understand they're not always honest about their allegiance to the voters when they get voted onto the board). And when Frisco banned private gun ownership the 9th Circuit struck that ban down as unconstitutional. IIRC (I think I heard this from a lawyer who works for the Democratic Party) if the Bay Area (including Frisco, but not so sure about Oakland) and Hollywood & Malibu were to vanish then CA would become a Red State (not as firmly as Texas, but still on the Red side of the line).

posted April 28, 2013 05:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
In Ayurveda, there are three doshas or body/spirit types. To simplify: Vata is thin, prone to anxiety, and moves fast. Kapha is heavy, slow, and compassionate. Pitta is medium build, usually lighter hair, very intelligent, and the most virile. As it happens they are quickest to anger.

When I think of bad boys who get a lot of girls, Pitta comes to mind.

Offering an eccentric point of view as usual.

---

Hi Faith,

posted April 28, 2013 11:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
My sentence was connected to the one above it.
I wasn't saying that it is unlikely for *all* women in their 20s/30s.

I was saying that a woman with strong Aries-Leo-Scorpio-Sagittarius influences... who is in her 20s/30s in the Western world.... would be much less likely to have such negative views about her sexuality or to want to "split off" her - bad girl side (as the article puts it) -------- in comparison to ------- a woman who has more traditional signs in her chart e.g. Taurus/Cancer and who was born in a different generation.

I was saying that it is a huge generalisation to say that women... in general... want to disconnect from the "bad girl" inside --- or that women feel this way more than men do.

We do receive religious/political/legal - messages regarding behaviour that is acceptable and behaviour that is not. Many people - male or female, would not want to see themselves as potential murderers.. for instance -- but given certain circumstances, maybe they would be capable of murder.

If you do not like the references to astrology - then we could go by psychological type.
Some people - male or female - are more rebellious than others, depending on their psychological make-up. Some people - male or female - are more comfortable with their own animality than others.

I do however believe that there are some blatantly obvious astrological influences and patterns - which impact on the way people express their sexuality - and on how prone they are to obeying outer messages about proper/improper behaviour (e.g. a woman with an Aries Venus and Mars conjunction square Uranus - would have more issues expressing the "good" girl inside... rather than the "bad" girl inside.. which would come naturally to her).

Society is made up of many different individuals..
When I pay close attention to the individuals around me - I see people who strongly diverge from these 'classic' stereotypes.

Every second woman I know is sexually expressive and out there, not so inhibited.

Things have changed a lot throughout the years. The argument that "women - in general - block out the bad girl inside" was perhaps true for 100% of the women living in 17th century Britain....... true for 50% of the women born in the 40s/50s..... and true for 30% of women my age, whom I see and interact with - in my social group today.

---

posted April 28, 2013 04:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
[B] Don't forget the Jefferson (the REAL Northern CA, though should they actually secede then maybe the Bay Area can finally be right to call themselves that). Though Arcata was certainly interesting...officially it was fairly conservative in the "leave me alone" sense as much of the rest of the region but there was a major stoner element and I think the large college also helped alter the area as well. For whatever reason it was very progressive for a small town, though many authority figures (such as the police) were less than happy about it.

It could be that I've been around some very progressive and radical elements so I define progressive differently than say many liberal Democrats do who are actually right wing moderates in my book (with Republicans being extremists by 2009, unless you want to measure them next to certain infamous dictators of the first half of the 20th century). And perhaps my being part of the gun culture (especially before 2009) has gotten me more exposure to the conservative & right wing elements of CA (and oh, the horrid gym that blared FOX News at us), and my mixing with the gay community has seen how much hostility there is toward gays (most of it inspired by Christianity), and btw one woman thought it was ok to say gays were more likely to be child molesters but took offense when I told her that most child molesters were men regardless of whether it was a girl or boy molested.

While there's no way I'd mistake most of California for Texas (especially rural CA vs. rural TX) it's still not anywhere as progressive as it's made out to be in Texas and conservative media. For example, many (if not most) places having zoning and schedule demands on anything related to porn (can't recall which case and too many to sift through but the 9th Circuit once said that policing against people wanking in the alley of a porn shop is more deserving of police attention than robbery, rape, and home invasions and therefore laws passed to keep them closed at certain hours was upheld to free up the police), which granted it isn't the same as Texas going after

Still, I don't keep up with the Scorp Pluto generation so I know very few 27 and younger, but given that the Sag Pluto generation (which I do keep up with) shows the same signs of prudery (and double standards) as my gen did I find it hard to believe they're that different...other than the excepted areas I mentioned, of course. Oh, and I mean girls of course, boys are also the same from when I was growing up which is radically different from girls on the sex question (lots of hypocrisy &

---

Well, my experience with the generations you speak of, the younger ones, is they place a great deal of value on:

-Sincerity
-Honesty
-Knowledge

For lack of a better term, it's more about substance then style, BUT if one has both then things tend to go really well.

Other thing is, they hate debating in real life, love doing so online.

One thing to keep in mind is, "bad boys", being basically amoral, know these things and will cater to them as they know how to turn any situation into an advantage for themselves.

I am suggesting, even the classic "bat boy" stuff, evolves, merely a different setting.

BTW..love the "bat boy" stuff, can recall the old tabloids with "Bat Boy discovers secret nazi base on the moon"

posted April 28, 2013 06:21 PM            

Bad boy----> Billy Bigelow

(clip) "The Bench Scene" [3:04] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxPbxow95SA

Carousel carries a very "heavy" message ... "brutality, poverty, and disappointment" -- includes death, crime, classWars, domestic abuse-violence...
http://www.pbs.org/programs/live-from-lincoln-center/

Rodgers & Hammerstein's,CAROUSEL
on April 26, 2013 ----
FULL-Length PRODUCTION [2:25:39] http://video.pbs.org/video/2364999751

posted April 28, 2013 07:55 PM            

Thanks for that!

I looked up some more, and I found this that I think is very relevant to this thread:
http://www.femagination.com/3375/carousel-teaches-me-something-about-myself/

quote:

---

The "victim" is Julie Jordan, a sweet and innocent young woman, who elopes with the local bad boy, Billy Bigelow. After their marriage, Billy can't find work and in his frustration, hits his ever-enduring wife. The local townsfolk are scandalized, but Julie sticks with him through thick and thin, because she loves him. One of the songs I loved the most was the one where Julie sings "what's the use of wonderin' if he's good or if he's bad...he's your feller and you love him, and that's all there is to that." She also sings "Any time he needs you, you go running there like mad."

Later on in the story, when their daughter, Louise, asks Julie if it's possible for a slap to feel like a kiss, Julie assures her that it is. I was practically in shock by the end of the movie.

That was the model of true love that I grew up with. I internalized that message. If I was truly in love, I would put up with anything. I was determined to be just like Julie Jordan.

It wasn't long before I found my Billy Bigelow. I was sixteen, he was two years older. He wasn't exactly the "bad boy," but he was suspect. For one thing, he was Jewish and that alone made him a curiosity in my all-WASP high school. He was also into theater and poetry. (I became entranced with him when I heard him recite "Babi Yar" by Yevgeny Yventushenko.) When we started dating, I was thrilled.

His former girlfriend, one of my best friends, warned me away from him. She said he was "sick." I thought she was just jealous and to tell the truth, I was attracted to his "dark side." It made our love seem more romantic. (I was also heavily influenced by Jane Eyre.) He soon declared that he couldn't live without me. He told me that I could never leave him. In a way, I was flattered. I was in love with the idea of "undying love." It didn't help that I had lost my virginity to him. That alone made me feel that our lives were destined to be entwined forever.

My family didn't care for him; that made him feel threatened. He began threatening to kill them, or to have them killed. He threatened to kill me and then commit suicide. He wasn't physically abusive, but he might as well have been. And the crazier he got, the more I held on. I would prove everyone wrong. To me, he was a "tortured soul" who needed my love to be healed.

---

quote:

---

When I was watching "Carousel," it suddenly hit me how twisted its message is and how much influence it had had on me as I was growing up. It conditioned me to believe that love means pain and sacrifice. The harder it was to love someone, the more determined I was to love him. I stuck to that pattern for years.

---

quote:

---

But it wasn't until I married my fourth husband that I realized that I didn't have to suffer for love. At first it felt funny to be in a healthy relationship. When my husband did things for me and stuck by me through my own craziness, I felt guilty and selfish. I was supposed to be sacrificing for him, not the other way around.

We've been married for eight years now and it probably took me at least four to begin to be comfortable being loved by man who is unselfish and giving. He's no Billy Bigelow, that's for sure, and I'm happy to report that I'm no longer a Julie Jordan.

---

As I was saying about that "Beauty and the Beast" drivel being all too common in romances that far too many women internalize to their detriment...

posted April 28, 2013 08:24 PM            

Interesting enough those who were particularly religious (and this includes a couple of Wiccans I knew, btw, not just Christians) had created such a "dualistic" pattern of thinking that once they abandoned the Golden Rule of their respective religion they therefore adopted everything negative as part of a "package deal." It was their view that to avoid to be a nail they had to be a hammer that hit other nails, otherwise another hammer would hit them. Some were just disillusioned, but the really scary ones were those who felt betrayed by God/dess that everything they'd believed about good winning over evil was a lie and sometimes acted with hostility against the Higher Powers themselves. It got really demented at times, enough so that many readers will appreciate my not sharing details (at least if I did share them many would wish I hadn't).

Of course girls were such a commodity on the black market (as well as preferred victims of all types of violent crimes) that having a guy was important, preferably a guy feared by others, that is a hammer who attacked the nails. Once protected (but to maintain his "respect" she had to be completely submissive to him, at least in public) she sometimes then gained a sense of power back by being evil to others and using her man and others to be evil to those she didn't like.

And it seemed to me the ones who were most likely to go down that dark path were those raised to believe you were either a wolf or a lamb, you were either good or you were evil...and you were either abstinent or you were a dog/**** (btw, you should notice that "evil women" in comics and movies show more skin and tend to have bigger breasts and the like, and I saw a book on comic art that said this was intentional, that evil = sexy, because it was all about "unleashing the forbidden" and in this twisted view you couldn't unleash one animal without releasing them all).

Btw, for what it's worth here's a vid (extremely popular when it first came out) of a shy, good girl vs. an evil sex bomb...and interesting enough Taylor Swift plays BOTH characters (she's probably just having fun, but it seems she's subconsciously split the qualities in her mind as others have done, though she holds romantic notions that her love will win him over rather than she needs a bad guy to fulfill her, though maybe this strays into chasing unattainable guys, but I think it's just an immature feminine view): You Belong With Me

posted April 29, 2013 03:56 AM            

Also, do not allude to things mutual friends had to say, then refuse to talk about it..

Nope, do not be a clam..but watch what you do and what you say..period.

Saggie hoof in mouth..just bad, it causes women to think they cannot trust you to be straight up with them.

Even in the most innocent of situations, my goodness..that sucks.

Don't be "real" just say what you know they want to hear you say and there you go!

posted April 29, 2013 11:26 AM              

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMH9bud2Yto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF-xxcOYlKE

and from the 40s(?) a more comical rendition of a different ethic that rationalizes hooking up with bad boys...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QesT67dsRbg

so many women still fall for the idea that "the love of a good woman" is all a bad boy needs to become good..

others assume all men are bad boys, if you want a partner it's up to you to mold him..

posted April 29, 2013 12:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by katatonic:
@ Gemmy, look up deepak chopra's site. he has a clinic that practices ayurvedic medicine...and i believe it discusses the different types in some detail (haven't been there for awhile)..

---

Thank you

posted April 29, 2013 06:13 PM            

Chatted up two women last evening, from out of town and they were asking for good places to go hang out as the conversation rolled along the sort of hostess of the trip literally said:

"..oh yes, love to mind fck guys who are obnoxious, one time I'll be a pharma rep, the next time a Doctor, the next time I'll be a lawyer, it really screws with them"

Honestly, in all of my time this is the first time I've run into that situation.

Point being, both men and women can play that little game. Personally I liked them but that was surprising to say the least.

posted April 30, 2013 12:44 AM              

then there's ado annie!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VprmD6oXpFQ

gotta love her!

thing is, ag, we all live and learn. someone who seems daring and passionate gets the adrenaline going and it takes awhile before one realizes all the other slapdash, self-centered and worse (much worse) qualities that go with that frisson...most of us whet the teeth of our character assessment talents on some of these guys...and then, a lot of THEM grow up and become good guys too.

posted April 30, 2013 02:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hannaramaa:
I like bad boys because I can predict their behavior and handle it better than nice guys. I know it's temporary, I know it's not serious, they're not going to fall for me nor I them. It's just fun. It's only sometimes and randomly that I'm in the mood for TLC or mushy Notebook stuff. A lot of the time I just want a friend who's a good kisser.

---