posted July 22, 2016 10:16 AM            

There is choice--YES

However, one is born with a TEMPLATE.

That is the chart.

One has one's template to work with.

Choice can be wielded in the CONTEXT of that template.

But, I do not think the choice has the wide parameters that I see people believing on here.

I don't and that is why I am different and I stand alone, and am most willing to do so lol

Anyway, take care, Ceri.

Wishing you well!

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posted July 22, 2016 10:25 AM            

Some approaches which are flirtations are also similar to wolf-whilsting when persistent, when refusal very likely is made difficult.

But not all. It's not confidence or good looks that distinguishes men who are successful from those who aren't - it's a sense of entitlement. Perhaps confidence or good looks relate to the investment in the outcome and therefore relate to the entitlement but I'd say they're secondary to it. If a compliment is freely given (with zero hidden desire) to get something back, it's going to come across very differently to if something was wanted. Say a gay man compliments a heterosexual man, I'm sure that man would find it complimentary. But if he wants something more, the other is going to pick up on that and it's going to create an air of being compelled to do something - which is unpleasant. Even if someone might be interested potentially in someone else, the sense that they might feel encumbent to respond is going to cause a different reaction.

Its like a market researcher asking about someone's earnings and then steadily steering the questions towards them making a specific purchase. That's annoying because it's not upfront, the person is being brought into a bind, they might upset the person who has invested time in them and finally ... It skews whether they actually want to make that purchase or are being coerced into it. Just trying to use an analogy to bridge the difference between women who generally can get sex when they want.

posted July 22, 2016 10:26 AM              

please stay on topic.

posted July 22, 2016 10:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by andstuff:
Ami, please excuse my chipping in, but catcalling and gripping butts are both part of a much bigger evil. We are talking about a paradigm of a prosexual heteronormative society in which women are permanently made to feel worthless unless they bend over backwards to offer their vaginas to men and warp their personalities to make sure their vaginas are chosen and penetrated.

You are right about truly horrible things happening to everyone, but think of it this way: the reason Hitler took over was because at first no one thought his party's agenda was evil. Until everything kind of escalated. Surrealists and other painters were condemned as "degenerate artists", some took their lives like Kirchner because they couldn't cope. Yet no one minded. And then suddenly a painter taking his life was actually part of the same big picture as the wwii

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I have to tell you why I don't fully agree and I appreciate your being respectful.

There are, always, "bad" things in society and, always, have been and will be.

However, the TRUE Atrocities are being put in the background and no one has the GUTS to really talk about them/stand up to them, while people go crazy over a cat call or someone touching your rear end

In civilized societies, you can call the police if someone hurts you.

What about the women who are beaten and raped and it is OK and they have no police to call.

People don't seem to get ANGRY and ready to FIGHT about this.

These women are the real atrocities, in a very real RELATIVE sense and that is my point.

Blessings, my Friend xx

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posted July 22, 2016 01:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:

I have to tell you why I don't fully agree and I appreciate your being respectful.

There are, always, "bad" things in society and, always, have been and will be.

However, the TRUE Atrocities are being put in the background and no one has the GUTS to really talk about them/stand up to them, while people go crazy over a cat call or someone touching your rear end

In civilized societies, you can call the police if someone hurts you.

What about the women who are beaten and raped and it is OK and they have no police to call.

People don't seem to get ANGRY and ready to FIGHT about this.

These women are the real atrocities, in a very real RELATIVE sense and that is my point.

Blessings, my Friend xx

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Slight detour from the OP to deal with this:

Ami,
as you know, I have experienced these "atrocities" you speak of.

And yet, I still don't think a stranger has any business touching my body.

IN FACT, I may have been more easily moulded into a compliant female in the sexual objectification of females, had I NOT been sexually exploited as a child.

Have you EVER considered that perhaps rape and beating of women is SUPPORTED by the objectification of women?

Can a man rape a child or a woman without first psychologically reducing that child/woman to an object?

posted July 22, 2016 01:57 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by anonymidarkness:

But classifying uninvited verbal contact as a hate crime ? this is taking things to extremes,

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posted July 22, 2016 02:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:

Can a man rape a child or a woman without first psychologically reducing that child/woman to an object?

I think not.

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You're awesome.

Objectifying culture = encouragement of violence

I can't say I experienced anything traumatic, but I once found a 40+ man's hand on my inner thigh at a cinema, was happy I noticed before things went further. I looked him in the eyes and he walked off. He probably just thought I was beautiful lol

posted July 22, 2016 02:13 PM            

My mother molested me, so I can speak from many angles here and one is from this one.

Also, I wanted to tell you that although we disagree on many things, my heart BREAKS for what happened to you as a child!

As far as women being touched by men in the wrong way, such as touching one's rear end etc, I agree it is wrong.

However, I see little fervor for the heinous things happening to women in other parts of the world, which have societal acceptance of rape and murder of women and children, with NO consequences, as well as child molestation with NO consequences.

If people are talking about abuse of women, this one is the worst and yes, it can be weighted.

I would like to see that outrage.

That is all!

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posted July 22, 2016 02:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by andstuff:
He probably just thought I was beautiful lol

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posted July 22, 2016 02:33 PM            

But I can also see how it can leave the door open for the system itself to be used to convict innocent men. Hopefully police will think critically about the case and examine all of the evidence before they make an arrest, in cases like that.

posted July 22, 2016 02:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ami Anne:

I would like to see that outrage.

That is all!

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posted July 22, 2016 02:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Voix

My mother molested me, so I can speak from many angles here and one is from this one.

Also, I wanted to tell you that although we disagree on many things, my heart BREAKS for what happened to you as a child!

As far as women being touched by men in the wrong way, such as touching one's rear end etc, I agree it is wrong.

However, I see little fervor for the heinous things happening to women in other parts of the world, which have societal acceptance of rape and murder of women and children, with NO consequences, as well as child molestation with NO consequences.

If people are talking about abuse of women, this one is the worst and yes, it can be weighted.

[b]I would like to see that outrage.

That is all!

[/B]

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So start a thread on it?

The fact that women get raped does not negate the fact that other types of sexual objectification are wrong.

This thread is about inappropriate or offensive behaviour being against the law, and whether that law is likely to be abused.

Choosing to discuss this is not offensive to those who have been raped.

posted July 22, 2016 02:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Have you EVER considered that perhaps rape and beating of women is SUPPORTED by the objectification of women?

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posted July 22, 2016 02:45 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by StubbornVirgo:
Then why not start enough thread about that, Ami? I think you would be surprised by how many people would share your outrage.

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Exactly.

I for one AM outraged abuot that, and have voiced it repeatedly (granted not on LL, cause I try to keep my ethic/ moral/political views to a minimum online, as I donīt think it just would change anything if I voice my concerns or not. my participation in this thread actually was a slip; I am not sure what made me break with my pattern here).

Anyway one injustice does not make another wrong right.

Meaning, yes, it is atrocious what is happening to women and children in some societies (and WITH the acceptance of the government and large parts of the society. If I think about it, I could rage and scream all day - but what would it help?)

Nevertheless that doesn`t mean just because this i so horrible, we can`t try to reflect on OUR social system as well, and there is always room for improvement and striving for understanding between the genders and people in particular (and I mean for BOTH sexes)

posted July 22, 2016 02:47 PM              

great post.

posted July 22, 2016 02:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
They are on the same continuum anyway. Mild sexual harassment at one end and sexual exploitation at the other. Both from the mindset of the female as a sexual object.
So in fighting all levels of sexual harassment, we make the world a safer place for all.

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posted July 22, 2016 02:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by StubbornVirgo:
I can see circumstances in which something would need to be done about unwanted verbal contact, such as in cases where a woman is being repeatedly stalked and/or contacted by a guy and he refuses to stop even though he's been asked.

But I can also see how it can leave the door open for the system itself to be used to convict innocent men. Hopefully police will think critically about the case and examine all of the evidence before they make an arrest, in cases like that.

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posted July 22, 2016 11:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anonymidarkness:

But classifying uninvited verbal contact as a hate crime ? this is taking things to extremes, somebody has to initiate and most of the time men ARE SUPPOSED to take initiative according to social rules or whatever they call it. In this case, men are at a disadvantage either way 1. they're not going to get girls if they don't initiate 2. they might get rejected even if they do 3. if they take the initiative they might get reported to the police for committing a "hate crime" lol. Poor UK men lol.

I still don't get the whole thing clearly, but if it means that a guy gets reported for calling a woman "beautiful"/"even hot", then this is absolutely BS, how can it even be called a "hate" crime when the guy clearly loves your physical appearance.

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posted July 24, 2016 05:58 AM            

what is your suggestion to the problem of sexual harassment of women?

posted July 24, 2016 07:04 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I think this law is TRYING to address it, and I appreciate your concerns that it carries a risk of abuse. I would think the definitions will have to be very clear to keep innocent men safe.

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