posted August 20, 2014 06:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mir:
^ And so in fact, when the Sun appears BELOW-the-HORIZON (1st to 6th house) on astro.com it will visually Always go hand in hand with the Part-of-Spirit, but NOT with the Part-of-Fortune (you have to calculate that on your own).

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I don't get it, Mir...what you said about the angles...please elaborate

And why do you think Ceri's TOB is a daytime TOB?

posted August 20, 2014 11:49 PM            

Reading an interesting related article now... The Lot of Fortune, The reverse or not?
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/PartofFortune.pdf

****

The writer of that article ^ concludes that the only point controversial about switching or reversing the Lot happens when the lot is used as prorrogator in the study of the length of life.

posted August 21, 2014 02:57 AM            

yes, my birth is a night birth, hence the POF would be on 15 Libra.
But my question is more or less, why do we reverse the calculation for POF depending on night or day birth? What is the reasoning for this?

Leeloo,,

posted August 21, 2014 07:00 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mir:
Lee, I guess I was unknowingly pleading to throw any distinction between day/night & am/pm birth overboard. I'm not even excluding now that I could have a point with this. Let's think for ourselves...

Reading an interesting related article now... The Lot of Fortune, The reverse or not?
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/PartofFortune.pdf

****

The writer of that article ^ concludes that the only point controversial about switching or reversing the Lot happens when the lot is used as prorrogator in the study of the length of life.

If anyone can explain what is meant with this ^ and also the word prorrogator?

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Now I see what you mean. You want to use JUST the day formula. Many modern astrologers agree with you, I don't know their arguments. Because that's one part of ancient astrology I'd like to keep. I don't think the prorogator is the only controversial point about switching to universal day formula. I'll explain it right away.

To my knowledge, the reason Arab astrologers, actually ancient astrologers in general, used a different formula for POF is the luminaries.

The Sun is the "light" of the day, the Moon is the "light" of the night. The nighttime formula measures the arc from the Moon to the Sun in comparison with the ASC, putting the Moon in the central position. Like in a horary chart, when you start from the significator (well, I'm not very familiar with horary, but the point is the Moon is the "significator", the Queen of the Night lol). As opposed to day time formula, when you measure from the Sun to the Moon, hence the different formulae.

Although the light you receive from the Moon during nighttime indirectly comes from the Sun, the Moon has an equal metaphorical "power" in astrology (not to mention her physical power on Earth) she is the luminary of the night, she rules the night. That's why, personally, I think we should keep the different formulae.

Basically, Ceri's POF, for example, is governed by the Moon and the lunar characteristics related to POF are enhanced. She even has a trine to her Moon.

Now I'll read the article about the prorogator ....which I believe it's this?? never used it, BTW: prorogator, a point on the ecliptic that, traveling at the rate of one degree of oblique ascension a year toward either the descendant or ascendant, determines a person’s length of life.

posted August 21, 2014 07:14 AM            

The Part of Spirit was supposed to be the polar opposite of Part of Fortune because it represents spiritual vs material, in a simplistic form, but let's say in its best form, it represents the difference between our incarnation and our "fortune" in the earthly plane (Part of Fortune), the Wheel of Fortune taking us to all kinds of "fortunes", good or bad vs the eternal journey of the spirit which raises above this material plane and only cummulates its experiences.

So someone whose fortune is ruled by the Sun, will find his Part of Spirit in the other realm, as a polar opposite, governed by the Moon and viceversa.
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posted August 21, 2014 07:56 AM            

I have POF in Sag 11th, strongly related to the 2nd. Jupiter, POF ruler is in 2nd, in Pisces, in mutual reception with Neptune, on 11th cusp, conjunct POF by 6 deg. This suggests a fortune related to: education, travel foreign lands or people, large groups, perhaps even philanthropy.

POS will show what part of your soul you need to develop in this life which is major for your overall spiritual evolution, for the grand journey of the soul, disregarding material conditions.

POS is in Aqua 25 1st house, intercepted, ruled by peregrine Uranus in the 9th - there is some connection here with POF. Uranus and POS are in exact trine. POS is exactly on Avx. It sextiles Chiron by 2 deg. My POS suggests: significant meetings in this life with spiritual potential, perhaps soul guides or soul guiding, even mentors/mentoring (Chiron). A need to develop the free-spirited side, the importance of travel and education for getting in touch with my spirit, as a major catalyst for my spiritual evolution. The importance of everything Uranian.

What's important about POS: POS is something you have to do despite or disregarding material conditions. For example, someone with a POS as I have must use their resources, no matter how scarce, for travel and education and sacrifice other destination for their resources, if that's the case.

The trick is to use POF's resources for POS's purposes.

What is the condition of your POF (Part of Fortune) and POS (Part of Spirit) and the connection between them in your charts, everyone??

EDIT: Actually, I just realized there is a Mystic Rectangle between my Vertex axis/POS and Uranus/Chiron opp.
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posted August 21, 2014 09:15 AM            

I understand the arguments (Moon night ruler and such), as they come from the middle ages, however I am not sure what I really think of it.
Maybe it is right.

But for a part of me it deos not feel right, to make the difference in calculation.
It has something to do with the consistency of calculation.

posted August 21, 2014 10:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
I still haven`t made up my mind about the question of reversing or not, so it is a little difficult to talk about POF/POS.

I understand the arguments (Moon night ruler and such), as they come from the middle ages, however I am not sure what I really think of it.
Maybe it is right.

But for a part of me it deos not feel right, to make the difference in calculation.
It has something to do with the consistency of calculation.

---

I suppose if one doesn't want to make the difference between night births and day births, one can consider the Sun as the reference point for all POFs. As a Merc/Mars in Libra lol I can definitely see both sides of the argument

However, people born before sunrise/after sunset do carry a specific energy, more lunar in nature. And maybe their incarnation, their fortune, is related to the light of the Sun reflected by the Moon.

Presently, I am fond of this difference because of the equal weight of Moon and Sun in a chart, but at the same time I understand why one would want to use an universal reference point, the Sun - as our star and primary source of light.

Perhaps people born during nighttime should consider both POFs? Something like old ruler/new ruler?

EDIT: A typical Libra solution, BTW

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posted August 21, 2014 10:43 AM            

The secondary chart would have the Sun as reference point, but you can actually make any planet a reference point. It is very similiar to the Draconic zodiac, just that in the latter we have the Aries point and the North Node as reference points, instead of ASC and Sun (or another planet).

however you can of course make a Venus-chart this way, using ASC and Venus.

ASC + planet - Venus

giving you your personal venusian vibration of any planet.

Actually that is what the Arabic part of passion/ compulsion is.

ASC + Pluto - Venus.

It is the Pluto-resonance within a personal Venusian reference-frame.

well my personal Venusian Pluto is on 10 Virgo, opp. my natal Jupiter, and falling onto Mr Sags Mars-Jupiter-Amor-conjunction, opposing his Eros.

posted August 21, 2014 10:47 AM            

Sabian: "Pelicans Menaced By The Behavior And Refuse Of Men Seek Safer Areas For Bringing Up Their Young"

All in all, a positive placement for a positive point. Gift of luck, ease of analytical and organizational abilities, a naturally wide and optimistic vision, and though it might take some effort, I can relate to just about anyone. I am not one for the spotlight (Scorp MC says "nuh-uh!"), but I have the capability to take the reins if need be, and generally do when irritated enough or forced to. "GRAH, fine, let's get this over with, and as quickly as possible!" Generally successful in any endeavor I make the effort to undertake.

My PoS lies in the 2H, in Aries. It is opposite my JUPITER 0°, SATURN 1°, and MOON widely at 10°. It squares its ruler, Cap MARS 2°, forming a T-square of PoS-MARS-SATURN/JUPITER. MARS has always been my trouble child, and that goes to include the things it lords over - it's always quarreling with SATURN. There is a trine to my SUN 4°, a wide trine to my NN-DC 6°, and a quincunx to my 7H VESTA 0°.

Sabian: "A Man Succeeds In Expressing Himself Simultaneously In Two Realms"

PoS in 2H seems almost like a contradiction, considering the 2H is very materialistic, lol. I think in this case it indicates a need to develop self-sufficiency, gather experience by my own two hands, and learn what it is to reap the fruits of ones own labor. "Get the cake and eat it, too."

Interesting you should point out using 10H resources to fulfill 2H needs, though. As well as the 2H/8H connection.

I find it of significance that both my PoF and PoS are in fire signs, in addition to my NN and SUN. I would generally ascribe myself more as an air-type personality. I suppose it could be construed as a push to become more fiery.

posted August 21, 2014 11:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
I actually think I would make the distinction between the Arabic Lots/ Parts (with the distinction) and the equilibrium charts, with the same reference point.
http://aliceportman.com/equilibrium-charts/

The secondary chart would have the Sun as reference point, but you can actually make any planet a reference point. It is very similiar to the Draconic zodiac, just that in the latter we have the Aries point and the North Node as reference points, instead of ASC and Sun (or another planet).

however you can of course make a Venus-chart this way, using ASC and Venus.

ASC + planet - Venus

giving you your personal venusian vibration of any planet.

Actually that is what the Arabic part of passion/ compulsion is.

ASC + Pluto - Venus.

It is the Pluto-resonance within a personal Venusian reference-frame.

well my personal Venusian Pluto is on 10 Virgo, opp. my natal Jupiter, and falling onto Mr Sags Mars-Jupiter-Amor-conjunction, opposing his Eros.

---

Exactly.

The Arabic Lot formula is very flexible, which is why I like it so much. Most use the AC as the personal point since most inquiries are about Self, but you can actually use any of the cusps for a more in-depth view of any part of your chart.

posted August 21, 2014 12:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
I actually think I would make the distinction between the Arabic Lots/ Parts (with the distinction) and the equilibrium charts, with the same reference point.
http://aliceportman.com/equilibrium-charts/

The secondary chart would have the Sun as reference point, but you can actually make any planet a reference point. It is very similiar to the Draconic zodiac, just that in the latter we have the Aries point and the North Node as reference points, instead of ASC and Sun (or another planet).

however you can of course make a Venus-chart this way, using ASC and Venus.

ASC + planet - Venus

giving you your personal venusian vibration of any planet.

Actually that is what the Arabic part of passion/ compulsion is.

ASC + Pluto - Venus.

It is the Pluto-resonance within a personal Venusian reference-frame.

well my personal Venusian Pluto is on 10 Virgo, opp. my natal Jupiter, and falling onto Mr Sags Mars-Jupiter-Amor-conjunction, opposing his Eros.

---

I never did those, thanks, Ceri

well my personal Venusian Pluto is on 10 Virgo, opp. my natal Jupiter, and falling onto Mr Sags Mars-Jupiter-Amor-conjunction, opposing his Eros.

awesome aspect!

Ceri, yes, that is our composite! isn't it neat??

Notice an interesting interplay between Cap/Cancer intercepted and the huge emphasis on 4th/10th.

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posted August 21, 2014 12:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

Notice an interesting interplay between Cap/Cancer intercepted and the huge emphasis on 4th/10th.

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posted August 21, 2014 12:31 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
It screams Mummy-Daddy-ness

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It's very "settled", isn't it?
It's actually a house, with the roof...in the house

Some hidden activities with the full 10th house in the basement, and in Scorpio When we retire, we should build ourselves a Witches Cottage and help the poor lost souls with some spells and potions.

posted August 21, 2014 01:09 PM            

POF: 13-14 deg Sagittarius

The Great Pyramid And The Sphinx

POS: 24-25 deg Aquarius

A Butterfly With The Right Wing More Perfectly Formed - apparently, it relates (Rudhyar) to the development of the right brain.

His POF: 3-4 deg Aquarius

A Hindu Yogi Demonstrates His Healing Powers

His POS: 23-24 deg Taurus

An Indian Warrior Riding Fiercely, Human Scalps Hanging From His Belt

posted August 21, 2014 01:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:

Actually that is what the Arabic part of passion/ compulsion is.

ASC + Pluto - Venus.

It is the Pluto-resonance within a personal Venusian reference-frame.

well my personal Venusian Pluto is on 10 Virgo, opp. my natal Jupiter, and falling onto Mr Sags Mars-Jupiter-Amor-conjunction, opposing his Eros.

---

Then my Venusian Pluto is on 19 Aqua, his Eros I can't complain! It opp my Moon.

posted August 21, 2014 11:12 PM            

After reading that Cochrane article through and trough I'm now completely sure I'll stick forever to the following consistent formula (no day/night & am/pm distinction);

PF = ASC + MOON - SUN
PS = ASC + SUN - MOON
PR = SUN + MOON - ASC

^ these are the 3 possible Parts with the Big Three. Forming each (ofcourse) an isosceles trapezoid with only 3 repeating angles in all of them. So there's an interesting symmetry behind it.

PR = part of retribution

quote:

---

PR has a similar symmetry around a point as follows:

•PR and PS are equidistant from the Sun and therefore are mirror points of each other.
•PR and PF are equidistant from the Moon and therefore are mirror points of each other.
•Consequently, PS is closely tied to the Sun, as it has a mirror point around the Sun, and PF is closely tied to the Moon, as it has a mirror point around the Moon.

•Therefore PS is solar and PF is lunar, which is another way of saying that the ancient doctrine of sect is critically important to an understanding of PS and PF, and PR serves as the balancing point around the Sun and Moon.

Thus, our analysis of the geometry of Arabic Parts has identified that sect is involved in understanding PF and PS. This is a most extraordinary discovery because we now have a mathematical basis for understanding why the ancients used one formula for day charts and a different formula for night charts!!!

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posted August 22, 2014 04:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Much better
I was asking because I'm a psychologist, I've practiced for a while but I gave up...it was too painful for me.

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posted August 22, 2014 08:25 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
Either you have already fullfilled your destiny and now you can go after fun or you felt that being a therapist is your destiny but you were wrong by following the "classic" path. Now you can be a spiritual/"alternativ" therapist. I am here, hence you will never run out of work

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Thank you for your confidence!

posted August 22, 2014 08:53 AM            

Btw: how would you interpret if an Arabic part conjuncts/opposes the luminaries? (of course it'd depend on the Arabic part )

posted August 22, 2014 10:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mir:
Hello guys,

After reading that Cochrane article through and trough I'm now completely sure I'll stick forever to the following consistent formula (no day/night & am/pm distinction);

PF = ASC + MOON - SUN
PS = ASC + SUN - MOON
PR = SUN + MOON - ASC

^ these are the 3 possible Parts with the Big Three. Forming each (ofcourse) an isosceles trapezoid with only 3 repeating angles in all of them. So there's an interesting symmetry behind it.

PR = part of retribution

Again the link: http://astrosoftware.com/ArabicParts.htm

---

So where's your POF/POS? BTW, Mir, I love you, my duad Venus is on your Moon

What is the Part of Retribution? It sounds like a Mel Gibson movie

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posted August 22, 2014 10:19 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
I'd always believe in you

Btw: how would you interpret if an Arabic part conjuncts/opposes the luminaries? (of course it'd depend on the Arabic part )

For example: moon opposition pof?

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Thanks

It was regarded as a very positive aspect. I think the energy of POF is strongly related to self-identity and the energy of that luminary in the chart. Fame is possible.

posted August 22, 2014 11:12 AM            

The Composite

General fate

POF Cap 8.34 2nd - common fortune comes later in life, in relation to 2nd house issues. It opposes Saturn (1) squares Pluto (3). GT with Karma in Taurus and MC in Virgo (1). Fortune is stable, the Kite apex is Saturn in Cancer 8th conjunct Amor.It conjuncts his Part of Fascination exact and our stellium of Parts in early Cap.

And now the first very interesting one:
Part of Destiny Taurus 27.49 6th - perhaps working together or a stable home?
It conjuncts my Part of Wedding (2) and his Venus/Pluto Part and his Part of Happiness
Conjuncts composite DSC (3)
It conjuncts our comp Part of Marriage/Partners Taurus 25.32, which is 2 deg from DSC. How about that????

Part of Fate/Karma Sag 10 1st house on Avx exact - a very fated marker here
It conjuncts Neptune IC ruler (2)
squares MC/IC and Union

And now a second very interesting one:

Part of Unusual Events Sag 19.37 and Part of Fascination Sag 19.23 conj NN/Mercury exact opp Sun (2)
isn't this amazing??
I smell some wild adventures hehehe

Part of Spirit Leo 14.15 - conjuncts my natal Moon and his Part of Marriage
It is in the 9th house, I think this can indicate a spiritual couple in general
It trines Eros (1)

Part of Success Cap 21.39 2nd house - conjuncts my natal ASC - the same interpr as POF. It conjuncts Pallas, perhaps the woman is the catalyst here.

Part of Victory Gem 16 in the 7th indicates a joyful union
It conjuncts composite SN and his Part of LOvers a bit wider (4)

Love-related Arabic Parts

Part of Desire and Sexual Attraction Cancer 25.19 8th house - rather passionate
Opp Pallas, square Vesta (3) trines ASC (1) and Venus (3)

Part of Energy/Sex Drive/Passion/Intensity/Compulsion Libra 7.42
Conjuncts Pluto (2), chart and Venus ruler, in the 11th house
It should give a lot of energy lol

Part of Happiness Cancer 13.47 8th house
square Eros (0) and Valentine (1) sextile Union (2)
It conjuncts my natal Saturn (3)

Part of Love/Beauty Aries 24.45
in the 5th house, conjuncts Chiron (3) part of the Venus Yod with the composite Sun, on angles
An aspect for lovers

Part of Lovers Pisces 20.30
This one opp my natal Sun exact, conjuncts his natal Sun (1)
It is in the 4th comp house, square Sun/nodal axis (1), trines ASC/Venus sextiles DSC

Part of Wedding Libra 20
opp Chiron trines Sun (1) sextile NN/Mercury (1)
In the 11th house, it suggests a non-conformist wedding or one with a lot of guests

What about your composite Arabic Parts? I would love to see them!