posted October 01, 2014 10:03 AM            

quote:

---

All my composite conjunctions, with the exceptions of Juno/Ceres (we both have the conjunction) come from a bear hug in synastry.

---

That's really impossible Lee.

If both natal midpoints aren't conjunct/opp. it can *never* be a Bear Hug.

BUT.. a Bear Hug CAN be (in rare cases) a Composite alignment (opp/conj).

And because it CAN be ^ we can never switch the names, because that would be like calling an apple an orange.

An example of a Bear Hug that is at the same time a Composite alignment (conj/opp);

A)
Sun 16 Libra
Moon 7 Aqua

B)
Sun 5 Aqua
Moon 17 Libra

Compo Sun/Moon conjunction.

AND:

B's planets HUG A's planets (because A's planets fall in-between B's planets) AND both natal midpoints conjunct/opposite.

So, what do we have here ^;

1) Composite alignment
2) Bear Hug

posted October 01, 2014 11:40 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mir:
That's really impossible Lee.

If both natal midpoints aren't conjunct/opp. it can *never* be a Bear Hug.

BUT.. a Bear Hug CAN be (in rare cases) a Composite alignment (opp/conj).

And because it CAN be ^ we can never switch the names, because that would be like calling an apple an orange.

An example of a Bear Hug that is at the same time a Composite alignment (conj/opp);

A)
Sun 16 Libra
Moon 7 Aqua

B)
Sun 5 Aqua
Moon 17 Libra

Compo Sun/Moon conjunction.

AND:

B's planets HUG A's planets (because A's planets fall in-between B's planets) AND both natal midpoints conjunct/opposite.

So, what do we have here ^;

1) Composite alignment
2) Bear Hug

rare ^

---

Mir, there's a misunderstanding here, on one side (or both )

I'm not sure you looked at the picture, which I especially draw for you

First of all, your example with Mercury/Vertex does not lead to a composite conjunction. Your composite Vertex (Vertex/Vertex mdp) is on 4 Sag, your composite Mercury (Mercury/Mercury mdp) is on 4 Scorpio, a semisextile. What we want to align are the mdps between xx (leading to composite x) and yy (leading to composite y). We do not calculate xy mdp for composites.

The definition of Cochrane's Bear Hug in Ceri's thread says we only need 2 conditions for a Bear Hug and it's the same as I'm saying and what that picture shows:

quote:

compatibility Key 2: Bear Hug
° 2 planets in a chart are surrounded by the same 2 planets in the other chart

2 conditions for this pattern
------------------------------

1) A`s planets surround the same planets in B`s chart

2) A`s planets make the same angle to B`s planets

The rest are characteristics and SPECIAL cases of Bear Hugs (such as midpoint-to-midpoint alignment of the same MIXED midpoint in one's chart such as Sun/Moon mdp)

Neither on his website, or on Ceri's thread (because I didn't read the book myself) he says that we need to have the same Mercury/Vertex mdp to get a Mercury/Vertex conjunction in the composite. Actually, the Mercury/Vertex mdp in one's chart is of no importance, since for composite we always look at the Mercury/Mercury and Vertex/Vertex mdp.

To give you an example for clarification:

looking at the picture I posted, imagine x is the Sun and y is the Moon.

Each person has a Sun/Moon angle of 35 degrees in their chart.

One person has Sun in Virgo, Moon in Leo. The other has Sun in Libra, Moon in Scorpio.

Obviously, the Sun/Moon mdp of 1st person is in Virgo or Leo, the Sun/Moon mdp of the second person is in Libra or Scorpio.

They are neither conjunct, opposed, nor in aspect, maybe.

However, because of the opposite phase leading to the Suns being hugged by the Moons and because the Sun/Moon angle is the same in each chart, their composite Sun is conjunct their composite Moon.(despite their natal Sun/Moon mdps NOT being conjunct).

The picture will make things very clear.

You can apply any angle between XY (100 deg, 11 deg, 45 deg etc), as long as it's the same AND in opposite phase, it will lead to a composite conjunction. No relation to the natal mdps between X and Y. It's the same as Mr Cochrane says.

------------------

posted October 01, 2014 12:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Selene:
Is there any explanation of conjunctions/oppositions to persons natal charts from the composite?

In my case our composite Sun exactly conjuncts our conjunction of Jupiter/Neptune (which is also exact). So it is just a mere coincidence?

---

I'm not sure yet, I think it must be related to synastry aspects somehow, but this would be a next stage of the research

Could you verify where your composite conjunctions come from?
------------------

posted October 01, 2014 12:09 PM            

On the other hand not every composite conj/Opp is the result of a bear hug.

I will quote the paragraph fromn Cochrane`s book

"the 3 characteristics of a Bear Hug patern are:

(1) Thre is a "triple mutual angle". Like the composite Alignment pattern there is a mutual angle, i.e. the angle of person A`s Sun to person B`s Moon is the same as the angle of person A`s Moon to person A`s Sun.
Note that in a composite alignment pattern, the mutual angle is direct and in a Bear Hug pattern the angle is reserve. ... Also in the Bear Hug pattern the composite Sun and Moon form the same angle as well, and thus there is a triple mutual angle, whereas in the composite Alignment pattern the planets are ocnjunct or opposition in the composite chart."

(2) in a Bear hug pattern there is a "Reverse Shift of the planets. In the example given in the previous paragraph, person B`s Sun is 30 degrees before person A`s Sun and person B`s Moon is 30 degrees after Person a`s Moon. Thus, person B`s planets are shifted 30 degrees from person a`s planets, but in opposite directions."

- I suppose that is what you meant with "opposite aspect phase, Leeloo?--

he goes on

"The third characteristic of a Bear Hug pattern is that there is a midpoint alignment. In other words person A`s sun/Moon midpoint is conjunct or opposition person Bs Sun/Moon-mmpidpoint."

On the importance he goes on saying:

"The composite Alignment pattern is powerful, even if an aspect between the planets is not involved because there is by definition and aspect in the composite chart, a conjunction or opposition.
The Bear Hug pattern, however, has only the aspect of conjunction of opposition of midpoiunts, which is much less significant than a conjunction of opposition of planets, so therefore a Bear Hug pattern is very powerful only if some of the angles involved are also aspects.

[...]

a mutual cross chart aspect always produces either a composite alignment pattern of a bear hug pattern! This fact is critically important because of a mutual cross-schart aspect is the the most powerful connection that is possible bewteen 2 cvharts. A mutual cross chart aspect that is a component of a composite alignment pattern, is more powerful than mutual cross chart aspect that is a component of a bear hug pattern because it has the additional bonding power of the alignment in the composite chart."

from:
"Astrology for the 21st century" by DAvid Cochrane, p.169ff

posted October 01, 2014 12:15 PM            

(1) composite alignment (conjunction/opposition)

(2) Bear Hug pattern

--- the most powerful of these ALWAYS are made on the basis of a DW, or what he calls, mutual cross-chart-aspect----

(3) composite planet conjunct or opposition a natal planet

"orbs for conjunctions in these patterns is approximately 2 degrees to 2 1/2 degrees. An orb of about 1 degree to 1 1/2 degrfees is necessary for strong connections. The orbs used in these compatibility paterns are much smaller than those used in analyzing natal charts!" (p.173)*

he also mentions as important:

(4) harmonic triangles between charts
(three planets making aspects to each other in the same harmonic, like the Grand trine consisting of 3rd harmonic aspects only, or the Grand Cross of 4th harmonic aspects; it also works for higher harmonics though)

(5) parallel harmonic triangles
(if they happen in each chart individually, and mirror each other; more powerful if they overlap and aspect each other, for the creation of either a composite alignment pattern of bear hug pattern)

* personally I am using a little wider orbs than this (3-4 degrees). I do understand though why he proposes such tight orbs. It has to do with the tight orb that is needed for midpoint patterns, and if the orbs spread much wider than that, the midpoint pattern gets lost, and hence the energetic coherence fizzles out into non-existence.

posted October 01, 2014 12:21 PM            

Now I understand that Cochrane's Bear Hug is actually a structure that doesn't lead to composite conjunctions (unless in special cases of Bear Hugs associated with midpoint alignment).

Sorry, Mir, my understanding of the concept was wrong.

Anyway, the Bear Hug does not lead to composite conjunctions as a rule. But the structure I pointed out in the image ALWAYS leads to composite conjunctions - I will call it a "Hugging trapezoid" for now; this one is of much more interest for me at this point because right now I'm focused on determining the source of composite conjunctions (and other aspects).

I was mislead by the fact that the Bear Hug is also a hugging structure.

Yes, by opposite phase I meant what he means by "reverse shift". Without it, there is no composite conjunction.

Actually, it's like two images in a mirror converging, which I think can be emblematic for the very idea of composites:

something similar (the angle)
something opposite (the hugging)

posted October 01, 2014 12:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
In terms of importance he lists:

(1) composite alignment (conjunction/opposition)

(2) Bear Hug pattern

--- the most powerful of these ALWAYS are made on the basis of a DW, or what he calls, mutual cross-chart-aspect----

(3) composite planet conjunct or opposition a natal planet

"orbs for conjunctions in these patterns is approximately 2 degrees to 2 1/2 degrees. An orb of about 1 degree to 1 1/2 degrfees is necessary for strong connections. The orbs used in these compatibility paterns are much smaller than those used in analyzing natal charts!" (p.173)*

he also mentions as important:

(4) harmonic triangles between charts
(three planets making aspects to each other in the same harmonic, like the Grand trine consisting of 3rd harmonic aspects only, or the Grand Cross of 4th harmonic aspects; it also works for higher harmonics though)

(5) parallel harmonic triangles
(if they happen in each chart individually, and mirror each other; more powerful if they overlap and aspect each other, for the creation of either a composite alignment pattern of bear hug pattern)

* personally I am using a little wider orbs than this (3-4 degrees). I do understand though why he proposes such tight orbs. It has to do with the tight orb that is needed for midpoint patterns, and if the orbs spread much wider than that, the midpoint pattern gets lost, and hence the energetic coherence fizzles out into non-existence.

I tend to use, at least with luminaries 1°30 - 2°00, with midpoints, so I am usually on the safe side, using a 3 or 4 degree orb for composite alignments or bear hug patterns

---

Now I begin to wonder why he considers the Bear Hug so important, so connective?? Why do you think?

Apart from the fact that it's a "mirror"(similar, siamese) aspect.

The only thing that happens in a Bear Hug is that those people have the same mdp conjunct. Is that it? It does sounds important, in the sense that something there (such as a transit) will activate both their aspects at the same time. But if they don't mutually activate that with planets, why is it so connective? It does not lead to something important in the comp. It's more like an astrotwin stuff.

posted October 01, 2014 12:43 PM            

It is also the conjunction of the midpoints of the same planets, yes.

And the underlying aspect will appear in the composite again, even if not as a conjunction/opposition; in a later section of the book he modifies his stance, saying that it seems that also parallel aspects (natal) seem more important than he was thinking of before, because of them transferring into the composite as well, and because you can change the fiducal axis however you want in a composite, you will ALWAYS get the same gestalt, same aspect or 180° minus the aspect.

No matter if tropical, Draco or whatever, the aspects are consistent (just a trine could become a sextile, a conjunction an opposition and so on).

posted October 01, 2014 12:55 PM            

DW`s, if in resaonably tight orb (here one is exact, the other sextile is actually a bit wide for my taste, at 4-5 degrees, but obviously it is still workable, otherwise it would not reappear in composite; of course it only does, cause the other aspect is exact), will always reappear in the composite.

Either as the same aspect as in the natal synastry (then they are in the same phase: we both have Pluto before each other`s Mercury).
or as conjunction/opposition, if they are int he reverse phase.

In fact the same thing happens with a parallel natal aspect. Our Venus-Pluto square we both have natally, turns up as a squar ein composite again. It is a square in our case, because the natal squares are int he same phase. Had they been in reverse phases, it would have resulted in a conjunction or opposition in composite.

But for that to happent he Dw has to be the very SAME aspect, two squares, two sextiles, whatever.

Other aspects of course connect with each other as well, but will make different composite aspects.

For example
his Saturn sextiles Juno
my Saturn trines Juno

This results in a composite square of Saturn and Juno.
Why? Because the square is the connecting phase between a sextile and a trine.

60° - 90° - 120°
or in other words adding the two aspects together and dividing by 2 (people), you get the square.

However I think this happens with us because again the natal aspects are in the same phase. I am not sure what would have happened if they were in the reverse phase.

Other example.

my Eros widely opposite his Venus (4 degrees)
his Eros sextiles my Venus (2 degrees)

same phase again, so adding them up 180 plus 60 = 240, divided by 2, result in 120, et voila, they are trine in the composite.

I am searching my mind, but I can`t find an aspect thaqt is made from a double aspect in the reverse phase, those I think of result in a conjunction or opposition in our composite. lol

posted October 01, 2014 01:42 PM            

Ok, well we have 2 Bear Hugs within tight orb; a DW Chiron/Jupiter TRINE at 1 deg both. And the natal midpoints are opposite within 1 deg. In the composite it becomes an exact Chiron/Jupiter trine by some minutes.

And then that Mercury/Vertex one exact. THE semi-sextile. Also in Compo exact semi-sextile.

And with a wider orb also Sun/Asc but the natal midpoints are opposed by 2,5 deg. And the underlying Sun/Asc trines are by 2,5 and 7, so prettyyyy wide.

posted October 01, 2014 02:22 PM            

Moon conjunct Pluto (we both have Pluto square Moon in natal)

Venus conjunct Uranus (we both have Uranus square Venus in natal + Venus-Uranus interaction in synastry one way (sextile) and Venus-Uranus interaction in natal/draconic synastry with exact conjunction)

Sun conjunct Neptune (Sun-Neptune square in natal charts)

Moon conjunct IC exact - not sure about this one. Seems that we share a mutual angle in our synastry of Moon/IC but it is not an aspect (or at least not a major one)

posted October 01, 2014 02:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mir:
Wow thanks for clarifying Ceri! I already hoped you would

Ok, well we have 2 Bear Hugs within tight orb; a DW Chiron/Jupiter TRINE at 1 deg both. And the natal midpoints are opposite within 1 deg. In the composite it becomes an exact Chiron/Jupiter trine by some minutes.

And then that Mercury/Vertex one exact. THE semi-sextile. Also in Compo exact semi-sextile.

And with a wider orb also Sun/Asc but the natal midpoints are opposed by 2,5 deg. And the underlying Sun/Asc trines are by 2,5 and 7, so prettyyyy wide.

So Lee, tell us now ; what are your Bear Hugs?

---

I haven't identified all the Bear Hugs yet in my synastry. Out of planetary Bear Hugs, for now I have:

Mercury/MC

my Mercury 11 Libra
my MC 16 Scorpio
hugged by
his Mercury 27 Aqua
his MC 27 Gem
same phase/but cross aspect
resulting in my mdp 29 Libra, his mdp 27 Aries

Actually, Ceri, what he calls reverse shift is a same phase for me, with cross planets though.

and

Jupiter/NN

his NN 25 Sag
his Jupiter 0 Pisces
hugged by
my NN 14 Sag
my Jupiter 12 Pisces

same phase
resulting in my mdp 27 Cap, his mdp 28 Cap

Ceri, I would compare the midpoints to see when they are in conjunction/opposition.

Actually, our midpoints are almost always in aspect, another interesting thing for another thread.

Right now, everybody, I'm most interested in where your composite conjunctions come from, the synastric/natal geometry behind them.

------------------

posted October 01, 2014 02:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Selene:
Our composite conjunctions:

Moon conjunct Pluto (we both have Pluto square Moon in natal)

Venus conjunct Uranus (we both have Uranus square Venus in natal + Venus-Uranus interaction in synastry one way (sextile) and Venus-Uranus interaction in natal/draconic synastry with exact conjunction)

Sun conjunct Neptune (Sun-Neptune square in natal charts)

Moon conjunct IC exact - not sure about this one. Seems that we share a mutual angle in our synastry of Moon/IC but it is not an aspect (or at least not a major one)

Mars conjunct Juno - in synastry my Juno conjuncts his Mars exact, and his Juno is 7 degrees from my Mars. It results in a 2 degree conjunction in composite.

---

Could you post your synastry?
I'm interested in the geometry behind these conjunctions.

posted October 01, 2014 02:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
for example the Bear Hug Pattern I mentioned previously, is resulting from a 6th harmonic Bear Hug, meaning, the underlying DW is a sextile (of Mercury and Pluto), and that of course appears in the composite as well.

DW`s, if in resaonably tight orb (here one is exact, the other sextile is actually a bit wide for my taste, at 4-5 degrees, but obviously it is still workable, otherwise it would not reappear in composite; of course it only does, cause the other aspect is exact), will always reappear in the composite.

Either as the same aspect as in the natal synastry (then they are in the same phase: we both have Pluto before each other`s Mercury).
or as conjunction/opposition, if they are int he reverse phase.

In fact the same thing happens with a parallel natal aspect. Our Venus-Pluto square we both have natally, turns up as a squar ein composite again. It is a square in our case, because the natal squares are int he same phase. Had they been in reverse phases, it would have resulted in a conjunction or opposition in composite.

But for that to happent he Dw has to be the very SAME aspect, two squares, two sextiles, whatever.

Other aspects of course connect with each other as well, but will make different composite aspects.

For example
his Saturn sextiles Juno
my Saturn trines Juno

This results in a composite square of Saturn and Juno.
Why? Because the square is the connecting phase between a sextile and a trine.

60° - 90° - 120°
or in other words adding the two aspects together and dividing by 2 (people), you get the square.

However I think this happens with us because again the natal aspects are in the same phase. I am not sure what would have happened if they were in the reverse phase.

Other example.

my Eros widely opposite his Venus (4 degrees)
his Eros sextiles my Venus (2 degrees)

same phase again, so adding them up 180 plus 60 = 240, divided by 2, result in 120, et voila, they are trine in the composite.

I am searching my mind, but I can`t find an aspect thaqt is made from a double aspect in the reverse phase, those I think of result in a conjunction or opposition in our composite. lol

---

For Juno/Saturn, Ceri, I think the opposite phase gives more than one possible result depending on the position of the two aspects in comparison with each other.

Where do your composite conjunctions come from? (asteroids/angles included)

------------------

posted October 01, 2014 02:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Mir,

how would you go on finding bear hug patterns with the least effort?
Starting with the midpoint alignment?

---

Well, I think it's best to look at aspect lines in the Composite chart as they appear there and then see which geometry lies underneath.

posted October 01, 2014 03:36 PM            

EDIT: image corr.

ex. Jupiter/IC (1)

ex. Mercury/NN (0)

------------------

posted October 01, 2014 03:36 PM            

quote:

---

Mercury/MC
my Mercury 11 Libra
my MC 16 Scorpio
hugged by
his Mercury 27 Aqua
his MC 27 Gem
same phase/but cross aspect
resulting in my mdp 29 Libra, his mdp 27 Aries

---

I wouldn’t exactly call this a mutual ^ cross-aspect as the synastry angles are 101 and 104 degree. 105 deg is a squine but we can’t make a squine of a 101 deg aspect. Orbs/degrees/aspects are of utmost importance in determining the strength of a Bear Hug.

quote:

---

Jupiter/NN
his NN 25 Sag
his Jupiter 0 Pisces
hugged by
my NN 14 Sag
my Jupiter 12 Pisces
same phase
resulting in my mdp 27 Cap, his mdp 28 Cap

---

posted October 01, 2014 03:46 PM            

EDIT: but my images above are about composite conjunctions, a different kind of hugging, unrelated to the Bear Hug (although a similar concept)

EDIT and I wrote a mistake on the image, sorry - his NN is 24
------------------

posted October 01, 2014 04:11 PM            

quote:

---

The composite Alignment pattern is powerful, even if an aspect between the planets is not involved because there is by definition and aspect in the composite chart, a conjunction or opposition.
The Bear Hug pattern, however, has only the aspect of conjunction of opposition of midpoiunts, which is much less significant than a conjunction of opposition of planets, so therefore a Bear Hug pattern is very powerful only if SOME of the angles involved are also aspects.

---

specifically: the word "SOME" ^.

SOME of the angles?

Also the 'natal aspects' within the hug?

posted October 01, 2014 04:36 PM            

He refers to the composite alignment here as well. Both, composite alignment AND Bear Hug pattern, are most powerful only, if they are the result of actual aspects (like sextile, trine, conjunction etc.)

Though the composite alignment is more powerful than a Bear Hug pattern even if not coincideing with a synastric aspect, not just any angular distance.
But most powerful when it comes with that synastric aspect. And second most powerful when it reflects a natal mirrored aspect (like for example Mr Sag and me both have an Angel-Lust-conjunction natally, which naturally is shwoing up in composite as well. In this case however there is a minor synastric aspect at play as well, as our Angel-Lust natal conjunctions are semisextile each other).