posted September 26, 2014 02:10 PM            

I can see the virgo in u Lee hihi.

(I noticed btw that it's at least 90% Earth Sun on board here, strrrrriking! - at least from my subject perspect)

posted September 27, 2014 07:52 AM            

Now looking at my synastry for composite translation, I realized our Leo Moon - Scorpio Moon square has two variations for the midpoint; in fact, there are only two possible results for the merging lunar energy of this square: one is in Virgo, one is in Libra. These are signs with very different energies; if the square is in the first half of the signs, the result would be Virgo; if the planets are after 15, the result is Libra (our result is 0 Libra, both moons on 15, well, mine 14, his 16); so Leo/ Scorpio in the first decanate merge into a Virgo symbolic energy, folks from the last decanate merge into a Libra type energy; this applies to the natals as well (I think that's you, Mir, right?? )
anyway, I think this is veeery important, it means several things;

- this leads us to decanates and duads; a combination between Leo planet/Scorpio planet differs with decanates, and the duads here would become an interesting connection to check; also, looking at my Sun/Sun opp with Sun 20 Virgo/Sun 21 Pisces, we have only two choices for Virgo/Pisces couples: one in Sag, one in Gem, but there must be an energetic difference between these two options, which is also related to decanates/duads;

- the composite sign of a planet and the choice of the near mdp DO matter, unlike what I previously believed: of course, the axis is to be considered, but we can't discount the fact that if we wanted a composite Moon in Pisces instead of Virgo, coming out of a square (quintile and fake sextile are also possible here), we would need an Aqua Moon/Taurus Moon square.
- which means we should consider this in natals as well, that there must be a difference between far and near mdps, how they are felt, and perhaps it is best to consider someone on our far mdp as actually opposing our mdp.

I'm still pondering of the meaning of my "discovery" lol and the meaning of phases here, in the whole process, but I would say, yes, the sign of a mdp does matter and there must be a difference in near and far mdps.

Of course, there are several other possible sign combinations to obtain a Virgo Moon in the composite. This analysis here raises another question: the difference between obtaining a composite planet out of an aspect vs a composite planet out of two planets NOT in aspect in the synastry; there must be a difference.

What are your thoughts?

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posted September 27, 2014 11:05 AM            

quote:

---

looking at my Sun/Sun opp with Sun 20 Virgo/Sun 21 Pisces, we have only two choices for Virgo/Pisces couples: one in Sag, one in Gem, but there must be an energetic difference between these two options

---

But lee.. I don't get it so much.
Well, I get it that in your case the Composite Sun is at 20,5 Gem. That's because of the shortest distance from his Sun to your Sun. In case your Sun was at 21,5 Virgo, it would give a Compo Sag-Sun. That's because the shortest distance then would be from your Sun to his Sun.

Isn't that always the logical procedure ^ ?

What I DO find interesting is that the Composite Moon in your case falls exactly on your natal Mars.

And the underlying geometry of it;
- your Moon semi-square your Mars
- his Moon semi-square your Mars
- Moon/Moon square

posted September 27, 2014 02:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mir:
But lee.. I don't get it so much.
Well, I get it that in your case the Composite Sun is at 20,5 Gem. That's because of the shortest distance from his Sun to your Sun. In case your Sun was at 21,5 Virgo, it would give a Compo Sag-Sun. That's because the shortest distance then would be from your Sun to his Sun.

Isn't that always the logical procedure ^ ?

What I DO find interesting is that the Composite Moon in your case falls exactly on your natal Mars.

And the underlying geometry of it;
- your Moon semi-square your Mars
- his Moon semi-square your Mars
- Moon/Moon square

^ an interesting pattern, not?

---

It's related to the conversation here
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum35/HTML/001019.html

on the importance (or not) of composite signs and the interpretation of near/far midpoints. It changes my perception, it has many implications, among which the sign of the composite planet is very important; we can't generalize the interpretation of aspects, even for an aspect in the same signs; we can't interpret composites without seeing the synastry/natals etc.

I was thinking of you because you have Sun in leo right?? and Moon in Scorp...I don't know if you have the actual square, but your Sun/Moon mdp has two possible and VERY different locations/implications, dependent on the degree of your Sun and/or Moon: either in Virgo, or in Libra and if you relate the Sun/Moon mdp to the marriage partner, it gives two very different guys

Yes, my Moon/mars 4th harmonic structure is very nice and it's part of a more complex structure: for instance, my Mars is on his ASC (2) square his Saturn/MC/IC (2)

posted September 27, 2014 03:05 PM            

OK so Venus 6.20 Virgo me
Venus 7.44 Aqua him
a quincunx
"inside", a very wide trine (actually I consider this a trine by sign but talking about ASC here, we can look at it like this) of ASC 28 Virgo - ASC 19 Cap
The distance between my Venus and his ASC - 22
between my ASC and his Venus - 19

is this a Bear Hug?

posted September 27, 2014 03:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

we can't interpret composites without seeing the synastry/natals etc.

I

---

That is what I am thinking.

posted September 27, 2014 11:31 PM            

And no Lee, that's not a Bear Hug.

A Bear Hug has Always both natal midpoints between the-same planets conjunct OR opposite and it usually doesn't appear as a Composite conjunction/opposition.

But the common thing between both ^ is that it's a same-aspect/degree DW.

In case you have the time to absorb Lee.. THIS brought all my insight (from Cochrane);
http://www.astrosoftware.com/Symmetries.htm

The midpoint-to-midpoint alignment is the Bear Hug ^.

posted September 28, 2014 06:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mir:
Ah jess ja Lee.. you're right. I can't imagine having something with a Libra or Aries guy.. even when having the best progressed synastry in-the-WORLD! (I think haha)
However, Virgo or Pisces is waaay more to my taste.. the first as the near midpoint is what I totally *GET* .. ~ Pisces ~ a complete mystery.. I dunno what's better ;D

And no Lee, that's not a Bear Hug.

A Bear Hug has Always both natal midpoints between the-same planets conjunct OR opposite and it usually doesn't appear as a Composite conjunction/opposition.

But the common thing between both ^ is that it's a same-aspect/degree DW.

In case you have the time to absorb Lee.. THIS brought all my insight (from Cochrane);
http://www.astrosoftware.com/Symmetries.htm

The midpoint-to-midpoint alignment is the Bear Hug ^.

But I have the Bear Hug (term) from Ceri's thread.

---

ahhh, all right, thanks Mir...I was thinking it might be a bear hug because of the "hugging": one aspect is inside, the other is outside, "hugging" it, and the arc between the aspects is pretty much the same. It's actually a midpoint-midpoint alignment, yes.

Actually, this is one possible config leading to composite conjunctions, yes.

What do you all think: are composite midpoints backed by an aspect in synastry stronger than composite midpoints = no aspect in synastry?

Like the planets from aspects have an extra strength in the comp (hence their aspects too?)
example:

I have two comps
In both of them I have a Sun sq Mars, but only one comp has a Mars/Mars aspect in synastry

------------------

posted September 28, 2014 06:58 AM            

I have an example in my synastry with Mr Sag
Mercury-Pluto

my Pluto 9°04 Libra
his Pluto 21°23 Libra
his Mercury 9°23 Sag
my Mercury 25°03 Sag

angular distances of
my pluto-his Mercury: 60°19
his Pluto - my Mercury: 63°40

(there is a bit of an orb there, hence the composite alignment would not be exact but have a bit of an orb).

my Mercury/Pluto-mp: 17°04 Scorpio
his Mercury/Pluto-mp: 15°23 Scorpio

composite Mercury: 17°13 Sag
composite Pluto: 15°14 Libra

Since our bear hug pattern has an underlying ptolemaic aspect, a sextile, even with a bit more orb than Cochrane likes to see I think, I think the sextile in composite is probably more significant than if it came without the natal and synastric backing up.

This Mercury-Pluto-alignment might be even more strenghtened cause of this:

Mercury/PLuto-mp (composite): 16°13 Scorpio

conjunct composite MC on 16°48 Scorpio

(and opposing EROS on 14°40 Taurus and PRIAPUS on 15°27 Taurus)

Of course in this instance, it is also coming in the shape of a Yod, as Mercury is sextile Pluto and both are quinkunx EROS and PRIAPUS on the IC, which means that the MC-IC-axis is running right through that Yod and sextile, and the MC pretty much being the release point.

Uranus is a bit farther off; 12°23 Scorpio; however through tertiary progression it is now at 16°46 Scorpio, only 2 minutes off an exact conjunction.

In case you wonder why I was checking the tertiaries, well I have found them to be stunningly accurate as a timing tool. Of course they are moving a little quicker than secondaries and are more about the monthly development (as opposite to the yearly the secondaries represent), but the major planets still move rather slowly in tertiary progressions, and well they work just so reliably.

I mean for example that concert where Mr Sag was singling me out first this year, took place when I was having a tertiary progressed New Moon, right on my natal DESC. EXACT. (meaning under one degree).

Last time when he approached me during the concert and asked for my name, my tertiary progressed Venus was opposing my natal Mars exactly, and probably already in orb for being conjunct my natal DESC (under 2 degrees).

To mention an occasion that had nothing to do with Mr SAg and was a very sad one actually, the day my grandmother died, tp Moon was conjunct my secondary progressed Moon and DESC, and squaring my natal Pluto exact.
(from 8-10 Cancer).
Tr Pluto was of course opposite that.

Where it became really creepy was, that my grandmother had a triple conjunction of Sun-Mars-Pluto from 8-9 Cancer.

As a matter of fact the moment she died there was Tr ASC on 8.44 Cancer, Tr Pluto on 9°57 Cap, Tr Moon on 9°53 Libra.

EDIT
In fact, funy enough, during the last months my tp Venus, Sun and Moon have been conjunct Mr Sag`s pr ASC (Which is heading towards a conjunction with my natal DESC, though slowly) as well as a bit later being trine his pr Sun.

This strange being pushed into his focus apparently happened the day we were having:

my tp Venus 2°13 Gemini
(my tp Moon 6°32 Gemini
my tp Sun 7°43 Gemini
my pr Sun 6°08 Gemini
my n DSC 7°06 Gemini)

his pr Sun 2°04 Aquarius
his pr ASC 2°29 Gemini

Of course due to the quick motion of tertiaries this is over by now.

my tp Venus is on 7°12 Gemini
my tp Sun on 11°36 Gemini
my tp Moon on 27°44 Cancer now.

Quick motion.

Well there are of course other relevant (Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars, Vertex, ASC, MC - I would not bother too much with anything else) trigger points.

Interestingly my tp Moon on 27.44 Cancer and my sp Moon on 27°59 Cancer, so thy are closely aligned in the current timeframe. A very emotional time I suppose (and no, it is not always like this).

It means of course that both, tp and sp Moons are applying to oppose my sp Sun, though tp Moon will be quicker (it will do so next month, while the sp Moon takes some more months untile it will peak in spring 2015).

Interesting that I was having a New Moon in the tertiaries and going to have a fullmoon in the secondary progressions.

I wonder if the tp work like a "foreshadowing" somehow.

And btw I really can`t wait for my tp Moon to be leaving the tp Saturn and conjunct tp Mars. I think I have had my fair share of Saturn-moon for a long time after last year (cojunction in secondary progression, long square of Tr Saurn to natal Moon, in fact Saturn picked the degree of my Moon to go back and forth, and also Tr Saturn trine secondary pr Moon. Enough already!)

posted September 29, 2014 08:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vajra:
LeeLoo, could it be that the meaning of the different harmonics aspects in synastry could be an individual thing, depending on the natal chart's dominant aspects patterns?

I have noticed that apart from this particular synastry I mentioned above, in which we also both have a T-Square with the Sun at the apex, I have this natal chart feature (T-square with sun on top) in common with virtually all my closest friends. This cannot be random; having T-squares is common enough, but with one particular apex planet? No way.

I think this may be a result of the native being very familiar with a particular type of chart pattern, so he/she then feels attracted to this chart pattern also in others. A person with very harmonious chart patterns might find 4th harmonics aspects in synastry awful….what do you think?

---

That's what I've been trying to say all along, take a look here:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum35/HTML/000093.html

posted September 29, 2014 09:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Sounds like a bear hug to me.

I have an example in my synastry with Mr Sag
Mercury-Pluto

my Pluto 9°04 Libra
his Pluto 21°23 Libra
his Mercury 9°23 Sag
my Mercury 25°03 Sag

angular distances of
my pluto-his Mercury: 60°19
his Pluto - my Mercury: 63°40

(there is a bit of an orb there, hence the composite alignment would not be exact but have a bit of an orb).

my Mercury/Pluto-mp: 17°04 Scorpio
his Mercury/Pluto-mp: 15°23 Scorpio

composite Mercury: 17°13 Sag
composite Pluto: 15°14 Libra

Since our bear hug pattern has an underlying ptolemaic aspect, a sextile, even with a bit more orb than Cochrane likes to see I think, I think the sextile in composite is probably more significant than if it came without the natal and synastric backing up.

This Mercury-Pluto-alignment might be even more strenghtened cause of this:

Mercury/PLuto-mp (composite): 16°13 Scorpio

conjunct composite MC on 16°48 Scorpio

(and opposing EROS on 14°40 Taurus and PRIAPUS on 15°27 Taurus)

Of course in this instance, it is also coming in the shape of a Yod, as Mercury is sextile Pluto and both are quinkunx EROS and PRIAPUS on the IC, which means that the MC-IC-axis is running right through that Yod and sextile, and the MC pretty much being the release point.

Uranus is a bit farther off; 12°23 Scorpio; however through tertiary progression it is now at 16°46 Scorpio, only 2 minutes off an exact conjunction.

In case you wonder why I was checking the tertiaries, well I have found them to be stunningly accurate as a timing tool. Of course they are moving a little quicker than secondaries and are more about the monthly development (as opposite to the yearly the secondaries represent), but the major planets still move rather slowly in tertiary progressions, and well they work just so reliably.

I mean for example that concert where Mr Sag was singling me out first this year, took place when I was having a tertiary progressed New Moon, right on my natal DESC. EXACT. (meaning under one degree).

Last time when he approached me during the concert and asked for my name, my tertiary progressed Venus was opposing my natal Mars exactly, and probably already in orb for being conjunct my natal DESC (under 2 degrees).

To mention an occasion that had nothing to do with Mr SAg and was a very sad one actually, the day my grandmother died, tp Moon was conjunct my secondary progressed Moon and DESC, and squaring my natal Pluto exact.
(from 8-10 Cancer).
Tr Pluto was of course opposite that.

Where it became really creepy was, that my grandmother had a triple conjunction of Sun-Mars-Pluto from 8-9 Cancer.

As a matter of fact the moment she died there was Tr ASC on 8.44 Cancer, Tr Pluto on 9°57 Cap, Tr Moon on 9°53 Libra.

EDIT
In fact, funy enough, during the last months my tp Venus, Sun and Moon have been conjunct Mr Sag`s pr ASC (Which is heading towards a conjunction with my natal DESC, though slowly) as well as a bit later being trine his pr Sun.

This strange being pushed into his focus apparently happened the day we were having:

my tp Venus 2°13 Gemini
(my tp Moon 6°32 Gemini
my tp Sun 7°43 Gemini
my pr Sun 6°08 Gemini
my n DSC 7°06 Gemini)

his pr Sun 2°04 Aquarius
his pr ASC 2°29 Gemini

Of course due to the quick motion of tertiaries this is over by now.

my tp Venus is on 7°12 Gemini
my tp Sun on 11°36 Gemini
my tp Moon on 27°44 Cancer now.

Quick motion.

Well there are of course other relevant (Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars, Vertex, ASC, MC - I would not bother too much with anything else) trigger points.

Interestingly my tp Moon on 27.44 Cancer and my sp Moon on 27°59 Cancer, so thy are closely aligned in the current timeframe. A very emotional time I suppose (and no, it is not always like this).

It means of course that both, tp and sp Moons are applying to oppose my sp Sun, though tp Moon will be quicker (it will do so next month, while the sp Moon takes some more months untile it will peak in spring 2015).

Interesting that I was having a New Moon in the tertiaries and going to have a fullmoon in the secondary progressions.

I wonder if the tp work like a "foreshadowing" somehow.

And btw I really can`t wait for my tp Moon to be leaving the tp Saturn and conjunct tp Mars. I think I have had my fair share of Saturn-moon for a long time after last year (cojunction in secondary progression, long square of Tr Saurn to natal Moon, in fact Saturn picked the degree of my Moon to go back and forth, and also Tr Saturn trine secondary pr Moon. Enough already!)

---

lol welcome Mars/Moon!

Ceri, I agree with you, I think this is a Bear Hug, an extended concept of Mr Cochrane's.

One reason for composite conjunctions is this Bear Hug (other being having the same conjunction, even by sign, in the natals, having Sun conj Sun which leads to the famous love stellium in most cases etc.)

Looking at my composite conjunctions I see:

IC/Jupiter (1)
NN/Merc (0)
Venus/ASC (1)
Psyche/Lilith (3)
Juno/Ceres (almost1)
Moon/Pluto (5)
Neptune/Avx (2)
Sun/Anteros (2)
Saturn/Amor (3)
MC/Union (3)
Uranus/Vesta (2)

With the exception of Juno/Ceres ( we both have it, he has in orb, I have it by sign), all the other conjunctions come from the following procedure which I'll describe for Jupiter/IC.

How Jupiter landed on our IC:

IC angle hugs Jupiter angle
IC angle 138 deg.
Jupiter angle 10 deg.

his IC/Jupiter angle 62
my IC/jupiter angle 64

him: IC in Sag, Jupiter in Pisces
me: IC in Taurus, Jupiter in Pisces

THE SAME ANGLE, THE OPPOSITE PHASE
a Bear Hug

So, if I want a relationship with Jupiter on IC ( a nice aspect, BTW) all I need to do is find a gentleman with the same Jupiter/IC angle as mine, but with the opposite phase.

I find this very interesting. It shows the merging between two people includes:

one similar component
one opposite (Yin/Yang) component

something we come to again and again

------------------

posted September 30, 2014 11:08 AM            

My Mercury 4 virgo
His Mercury 4 Cap

My Vertex 4 Aqua
His Vertex 4 Libra

HIS Mercury & Vertex fall *IN-BETWEEN* MY Mercury & Vertex - like: 1st MY Virgo-Merc and THEN his Mercury+Vertex and at the final END my Aqua-vertex.

^ my pair is HUGGING his pair as the signs libra&Cap fall IN-BETWEEN the virgo and Aqua.

Clear now ^ ?

AND a second requirement; both natal midpoints are Conjunct/opposite ^.

posted September 30, 2014 11:34 AM            

quote:

---

That's very helpful information for deciphering my synastry, because I have exactly this phenomenon in synastry and composite. Both our natal Sun and Moon are in exactly mirrored phases (waning/waxing square, respectively, orbs 0°39 and 0°23), plus both our Suns are located at the far Sun/Moon midpoint of the other person. The phase mirroring results in a Composite Sun-Moon opposition (orb 0°30) which is also present in the Davison chart (orb 2°32).

According to Cochrane's explanation, for the composite opposition to appear, it is sufficient to have mirrored angles between the respective Sun and Moon in both natal charts. In our case, the added positioning of both Suns at the other's Sun/Moon midpoint has the effect of resulting in a double "Thor's Hammer" synastric structure (Sun sesquisquare the other's Sun (orb 1°15) and Moon (0°53/1°54), both ways).

Funnily, but unrelatedly, there's also a third element that comes into play which results in a Draco alignment as well, because the nMoons are at halfsquare distance from each other (orb 1°32) and the Suns at sesquisquare distance, and additionally, the Moon's nodes are also at halfsquare distance (0°41), so the result in the Draco synastry is a shift to a Sun-Sun opposition (2°20) and a Moon-Moon conjunction (2°37) located exactly square to the Sun-Sun-opposition axis, thus forming a Draco T-square structure made up by the Luminaries alone.

Thank you so much for posting the helpful info for making sense of the reasons behind this alignment! I've kind of puzzled over it for some time and didn't know it had already been studied and explained so well! Now I'll need to get hold of Cochrane's book!

---

I'm flabbergasted Vajra. What a strong and amazing alignment! And EVEN both Sun/Moon midpoints opp. the other's Sun.
Wow.. wow wow!

I was thinking after reading your first sentences; what would be the effect in DRACO? In fact, not a logical thought at-all as it completely depends on the angle between both your NN/SN's .. but haha reading further and u mentioned draco ... (well, my association had everything to do with the pretty amazing alignment *we* have - not exactly comparable with yours but it resonates somehow ~~ well, let's not underestimate the *BIG LIGHTS*!; tropical: His Sun/Moon midpoint opp. my sun within 1* / draco: my Sun/Moon midpoint opp. his Moon by 1* - and vice versa: tropical; my Sun/Moon midpoint quindecile his Moon by less than 1* / draco: his Sun/Moon midpoint quindecile my Sun by 1*)

posted September 30, 2014 01:26 PM            

What matters is that in order to have a Bear Hug (leading to a composite conjunction aka the same midpoint aka midpoint alignment) all you need is two conditions:

- the same distance (or similar) between x and y in the natal
- opposite phase

You don't need an aspect between X and Y in the natal. For example, your example, you can have Mercury/Vertex 11 deg, he can have Mercury/Vertex 11 deg, AND the opposite phase, you'll still get an exact conjunction in the comp.

Or you can have Mercury/Vertex 16 deg, and he can have Mercury/Vertex 22 deg (and opposite phase, of course), you still have a bear hug and you get a 3 deg conjunction in the comp.

Because this actually creates a trapeze in all cases: with xx (the hugged planets) being the small leg, and yy (the hugging planets) the large leg. The midpoint of both legs (the median of the trapeze) are the same point.

All my composite conjunctions, with the exceptions of Juno/Ceres (we both have the conjunction) come from a bear hug in synastry.

I'll try to come up with a picture.

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