posted August 08, 2015 02:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
why Prudentia?
Virginity is not necessarily the same as reasonability.

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posted August 08, 2015 02:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
I do want to add, that, yes, I DO experience a very powerful, even profound attraction to my boyfriend that is undeniably sexual. But it's of a different kind: a more primal, merging variety. Such as 'I need to feel you inside of me, for it's then that I become you, and you are now me, and in this moment between moments, we are truly one, together'. It's a genuine merging; our auras 'pierced' by the other to allow the blending and combining of two into one.

Sexual intercourse is such a powerful metaphoric experience of this sort of binding and bonding. It's never about pleasure or even physicality for me. I always find myself returning later to the moment I first feel him, and we relish in it together; he's hyper-aware of everything that I am, and I surrender myself to the profundity of the love we're creating as a result of this trust exercise and exchange of vulnerability for protection and vice versa.

Sex is psychological, in other words. The physical element is crucial, as it takes me out of being locked within my head. I'm no longer isolated. I'm literally 'invaded' by the presence of external stimuli -- reminding me that it's there, and I'm not alone. Then, in being so lovingly, carefully, and vigilantly possessed by it -- by him -- it's really then, and only then, I can free myself from my own stringent self-controls, which I also live by, on a daily basis.

So I do experience a sort of sexual attraction to him, but it's the desire to merge and be merged. To experience that oneness, where time literally slows and almost stops, and we are truly one and the same, together.

Ahh. 11:11.

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That sounds to me like sexual attraction but at a deeper primal soul and sacred level which is what everyone should be aiming for and seeking as I feel that is the purpose of sex. You described what I consider good sex and what I had with my ex and with my aqua friend. Its not what I think of as asexual, that sounds very sexual is just that sex is not something you do just to come but to merge with the other and when you feel that then you come.

I don't interpret that as asexuality or feel a schizoid could feel that deeply!

Maybe your desire for sex and been able to come depends completely on that sort of connection which if it does then that is a blessing bc at the end of the day that is what sex is truly for. Perhaps that dependence combined with a low libido makes you asexual, I get that!

posted August 08, 2015 02:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Actually, the term asexuality is used to define a lack of sexual desire/libido/interest in sexuality. It has nothing to do with being a celibate or an abstinent. It is normal for celibate people (such as monks for instance) to have a dormant, sleeping beauty type of sexuality. Still there will be erotic dreams, spontaneous orgasms etc. It doesn't make them less sexual than a "sex worker" for instance, on the contrary, their sexual needs/libido can be much higher, average or above average. It's irrelevant when it comes to celibacy.

What appears to be "asexuality" can in fact be something else (e.g. repression mechanisms, not having discovered one's sexuality yet, etc). Asexuality (the total lack or very diminished libido and interest in sex) is rare; it is traditionally associated with schizotypal conditions, or autism for instance, and schizotypal personalities, where the libido, especially the interest in interactions with other people, is very low (as a consequence of the general lack of alter-interest, they are insular conditions or personalities). It doesn't mean all asexuals are within this spectrum, just an example when genuine asexuality occurs.

What defines "being asexual" is having a very diminished desire/libido, being single, celibate, abstinent, married, a virgin or not, has nothing to do with it. It's a faux term anyway, in reality no individual with sexual organs is asexual, so practically it doesn't exist. There is a sexual dynamics happening (in the background) in all cases.

A person who is still a virgin cannot realistically estimate the intensity of their libido. (a big part of their sexuality is in sleeping beauty phase)

The decision to loose one's virginity or to be an abstinent, for instance, doesn't depend on sexuality (libido or sexual interest in other people), but other important factors such as: wanting to do it in special conditions- e.g. with someone one loves, at a particular moment (when one is married e.g.), lacking a social/dating life, religious reasons etc. If some people "loose their virginity" before others it certainly doesn't mean they have a higher libido or because they are more sexually attracted to people (than those who are still virgins) and in an indiscriminate way.

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posted August 08, 2015 02:29 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
I'd say your gray-asexual if the number is below 10 (note: this is not an official criterion).

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Certainly not. The number of partners or the age one begins their sex life is not an indicator of sex drive. Using this label, "asexual", artificially, doesn't help anyone.

Considering what true asexuality really means. To give an example, my friend, a very sexual woman, married 15 years, 2 little boys, unfortunately developed breast cancer and one breast was removed. She had to undergo the hormonal treatment which turned her into an asexual: no more interest in sex, sensations missing ( I am not talking just anorgasimic here, but general sensations and most of all, the interest, the drive to have sex). That was an expected secondary condition due to treatment, however, after the treatment was done, she has developed a secondary psychological asexuality (due to her feeling very insecure about her body, perceiving the surgery as mutilation). This is one case of asexuality. It's quite common in such cases.

As I said, people who aren't even dating can't talk sexuality vs asexuality, it's the same as fantasizing about what a crappy or brilliant pianist I could be, while I haven't touched a piano in my life.

Only when being in a relationship, with your bf, every day in the house with you and feeling nothing or even being repulsed by him, one can evaluate how "asexual" they are. Or, if one is not into monogamy, being with several of those and feeling nothing.

posted August 08, 2015 02:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
why Prudentia?
Virginity is not necessarily the same as reasonability.

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The site I checked says it also means carefulness.

posted August 08, 2015 02:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

The question here, with the OP example is more about identifying the reason for celibacy, for not dating, or for being a recluse (if this is the case).

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I kept the question very open bec is exploratory but I am finding a connection with sun-artemis natal aspects and "celibacy, not dating, or for being a recluse" as you nicely put it; I like that operational definition better at this point based on how this thread is evolving and seeing the complexity of asexuality.

My brother I feel desires a relationship and to experience sex but it seems the desire is not strong enough as well to really do what needs to be done to make those things happen. He is warm and friendly but keeps to himself and is comfortable and content been alone and lost in his own world. Although he socializes he is very much a loner and lives in his own world I feel.

posted August 08, 2015 03:13 PM            

quote:

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Certainly not. The number of partners or the age one begins their sex life is not an indicator of sex drive. Using this label, "asexual", artificially, doesn't help anyone.

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posted August 08, 2015 03:18 PM              

Feeling attracted to someone from a distance, by looking at them or their picture, and having sexual chemistry with them is a different thing.

posted August 08, 2015 03:23 PM              

Interestingly enough it conjuncts his Juno and opposes his Venus and also trines his ASC-Nympe and his Uranus.

posted August 08, 2015 03:29 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Again, talking about sexual attraction outside dating is futile.

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I disagree.
You don`t have to be dating someone to feel sexual attraction and physical chemistry.

However I DO think you need to be in their physical proximity or have experienced their physical proximity. Like you have to be on the receiving end of their "(physical) energy" so to speak.

At least that is how i experience it, and I also noted that it always feels different, when you meet someone in real life, even if you have known about them before. It`s like being "touched" by their energy field (not sure how to put it differently), sets something in motion. Not better or worse, but different.

posted August 08, 2015 03:29 PM            

quote:

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One cannot evaluate their sexuality unless they are sexually active.

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quote:

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You don`t have to be dating someone to feel sexual attraction and physical chemistry.

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posted August 08, 2015 03:41 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
You're not trying to say that virgins who think they may be/are asexual are not allowed to think so, are you?

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I've repeatedly said it that it's impossible to know how "asexual" one is when a virgin. It's the same as saying I hate skating or I suck at skating without ever touching the skate shoes. But, I can't stop people from imagining whatever they like.
-----------------
Anomaling around since 1911.

posted August 08, 2015 03:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
That sounds to me like sexual attraction but at a deeper primal soul and sacred level which is what everyone should be aiming for and seeking as I feel that is the purpose of sex. You described what I consider good sex and what I had with my ex and with my aqua friend. Its not what I think of as asexual, that sounds very sexual is just that sex is not something you do just to come but to merge with the other and when you feel that then you come.

I don't interpret that as asexuality or feel a schizoid could feel that deeply!

---

Oh, goodness yes! Secret schizoids especially. We become so good at the act that we become it. So we're masters of disguise, so to speak, and the best way to understand us -- truly -- is to read our work (if we're artists of some form) or to read between the lines of our written word. What comes straight out of our heads, not filtred through a social -- or even external -- lens, is the most authentic form of us.

My affect varies. The trouble is what's truly me and what I've fashioned myself after in order to obtain what I want from the situation. I have a panoply of schemas and personae in my head with which I've become so adept at adopting, they're automatic. That's why if someone asks me how I'm feeling, it's like a computer dividing by zero. The system crashes. I do a speedy evaluation of my physical sensations, starting at the base of the pyramid. If all is well at the lower levels, then I can start evaluating things like, how far am I from self-actualisation today? Has that been a pattern lately? What do I need to shift or change to hit that goal more frequently? It feels awfully manipulative when you put it that way, but that's sadly how it is.

As I've aged, however, I'm tired of being the wizard all of the time; it's liberating to come out from behind the curtain and say, 'really, it's all buttons and levers. The booming voice is all for show, as well as the fireworks. Sorry. I'm far less compelling than you think I am.' And yet, the more I've discovered myself, I am kinda compelling, and some find me downright fascinating -- so who's to say?

This is likely why I've always found Masters and Johnson so fascinating from the start of my sexual education. Something about them drew me on a much deeper level. Masters was searching for something, and Johnson such a master of disguise herself that she never really knew herself. But they adopted sex as the tool for self discovery, and became incredible pioneers for the rest of us. Many times, I feel that my boyfriend and I have been passed that baton -- we just didn't know what to do with it. At first.

I'd like to enjoy sex for its sake, but I just don't think that's in the cards -- and I admire how Johnson was able to do so, AND in a time where it was so frowned upon as to be abhorrent. I've always been a bit more like Masters, though, in the sense that I'm a classic schizoid ( ... I think; my sexual profile differs from that of a secret schizoid -- as far as I can tell) who is seeking sexual education and enlightenment for a purpose. Which we now know as cupiosexual.

As to my sexual relationship, I can't deny that there's a tremendous element of fantasy involved. That's the greatest irony, I feel, as its baseline is learning to be in the present and explore sex only within the context of reality.

To that end, it's completely passionless. In the beginning, we were very regimented, and now the tone continues, despite the knowledge and skill we've amassed. For example, we still forget to disrobe each other (something we discovered can increase intimacy and is likely to result in an oxytocin surge) and to consciously use eye-contact -- which is often avoided. But we know so much about one another, and ourselves, that our approach is appropriately mechanised -- if that's what you're after. Softer erection this time? Shorter strokes, riding high. Maybe even female-superior. Greater sensitivity with a touch of vulvodynia? Ride low with longer strokes, slower pace, sticking to male superior (missionary).

We've got this go-to list in our heads these days, which we can pull from as needed. And 'compiling' this 'cheat sheet' over the course of a year and a half is what has been most significant. Honestly, THAT's what I enjoy most about it.

It forced a level of intimacy with which most schizoids are completely unfamiliar, that's alien to the majority of asexuals. And we've managed it. Not easily, but through dedication and genuine love and appreciation for one another. Sex wasn't something we were really that inclined to do -- it's something we decided we should do, because, God if anyone's going to be able to figure this thing out, it's us.

What we learnt, in a nutshell, is:

People regularly engage in sex without intimacy. We carry around so many schemas in our heads and relate to these fantasies in order to stimulate arousal. Then we unconsciously call upon these images and experiences when sexual activity begins in order to intensify the current encounter. But these are crutches. We're lying to ourselves. Deeply. We're doing little more than using another person to engage in masturbation. And, we mostly do this because we've never had the experience of doing otherwise. It seems normal, and everything tells us that it is. It's not.

Having sex within the context of reality, on the other hand, without the support of internal or even shared fantasy, is an altogether different experience, and most don't like it. They want the roleplay, or the private scenario unfolding within their heads. (Because a lot of people are fetishists, without realising it.) When you're forced to engage in ONLY what's happening, you become hyperaware of everything -- the person you're with, why, your motivations for engaging in sex at all, and what to do with every single moment of the experience. Starting out, we were daunted. Thankfully, with his background as a medic, (you say 'Gray's Anatomy' around him, and he's only familiar with the rudimentary text) he's taught me a lot more about my own sexual responses that I hadn't even realised; things which I knew were supposed to happen, but weren't happening AS they're traditionally to occur, and it really does take a partner to point out those differences, and keep track. Whereas my background as a psychologist means I'm able to check in frequently for both of us, and connect the physical with the internal experience.

It's ... a lot.

You can imagine, though, passion is very quickly not a part of this. Any time we've attempted to introduce it ... well, it's as I said. Mental checklist. Ah, let's employ eye-contact this time, and remove each other's clothing, etc. I wouldn't say it's created passion, per se, but it has brought intimacy. We both have a good oxytocin surge afterward, and can confidently say, 'we've made progress,' or, rarely, as in the last 6 months, 'I think we've made a real breakthrough.'

It changed the way I think of sex, however. That's when I realised that my desire stems purely from this bizarre constellation; it satisfies an internal schema I knew I had, but had no idea what to do with it. I adore the privacy of it. The fact that, when observing us from the outside, we seem like the last two people who would be exploring sexuality together. The subtleties. The way he'll fidget nervously, literally twiddling his thumbs, and I don't even glance in his direction, gently placing my hand over his. The way we've come to know each other so deeply: body, mind, and soul.

Of course, were he not an exact match for the unique image within my head, that I'd been carrying around since 19, I might not be as deeply 'taken' by it all. Hence, the fantasy element. The fact that I can't help but think, 'I can't believe this is happening.' It feels fated, and beyond my comprehension, yet so very purposeful, and one of the big things we're here to do.

I don't know. It's strange. But, because of the aforementioned reasons, the jumble within my head that it all is, every fibre of my being is drawn to him in a way that I've never known before. It came close with my karmic soulmate, but was built upon an entirely different fantasy.

This, on the other hand, is bizarre reality. I know what it is, and what it's not. And, what's most exceptional, is how much it is a strange match -- and in just the right ways. If that makes sense? I feel as if I've been 'prepared' for this relationship, since my adolescence. As if all of the things in my head, are oddly complementary to, or in preparation of resolving or amplifying or completing all of the things in his head.

In short, were someone you couldn't possibly imagine actually existed, to come into your life -- especially one who feels cut from the same fabric as your own soul -- could you not feel a powerful kinship and a deep love for them?

Sexuality is a funny thing to me. I've only ever had interest in it if there was a purpose. As a useful tool. Lately, it's been to explore the sexual dynamics of asexuality within the context of a sexual relationship.

Personally, however, I have a deep-seated need to be the one to finally break his control; to free him from those stifling bindings. This is what feels karmic to me; something I've always 'known' about him. But I'm not really prepared for that. Granted, we've managed quite a lot in that area, by falling in love with each other, (though it was tough to admit!) but passion ... passion is a horse of a different colour.

Passion is the absence of control; it's the presence of yearning, and desperation. It's the freedom from such self-discipline and asceticism.

I feel that's our ultimate, personal, mutual goal. To experience true passion together, on all levels.

posted August 08, 2015 03:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Thank you for your explanations, Aubyanne, very interesting

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Likewise, Lee!

posted August 08, 2015 03:48 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
I disagree.
You don`t have to be dating someone to feel sexual attraction and physical chemistry.

However I DO think you need to be in their physical proximity or have experienced their physical proximity. Like you have to be on the receiving end of their "(physical) energy" so to speak.

At least that is how i experience it, and I also noted that it always feels different, when you meet someone in real life, even if you have known about them before. It`s like being "touched" by their energy field (not sure how to put it differently), sets something in motion. Not better or worse, but different.

---

Of course one can feel sexual attraction outside interacting with the person; however, everything we feel outside an actual relationship can be an illusion.

Many times we can feel attracted to a person by looking at their pic or seeing them every day, let's say they are your neighbor, for instance, but then when kissing them or sleeping with them, you realize the initial attraction was an illusion. That's what I meant by: intensive interaction is the only truthful test.

posted August 08, 2015 04:02 PM            

What seems off to me is how much importance you seem to place on close relationships, looking and fighting love, love in general. You had multiple boyfriends and I recall you write love must be the purpose of life or something like that. It all seems very unusual for someone who claims to be schizoid.

posted August 08, 2015 04:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Of course one can feel sexual attraction outside interacting with the person; however, everything we feel outside an actual relationship can be an illusion.

Many times we can feel attracted to a person by looking at their pic or seeing them every day, let's say they are your neighbor, for instance, but then when kissing them or sleeping with them, you realize the initial attraction was an illusion. That's what I meant by: intensive interaction is the only truthful test.

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Can I ask a silly question?

posted August 08, 2015 04:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
I've got VIRGINIA conjunct SUN. What's funny is that I've deeply studied the work of Masters and Johnson -- i.e., Virginia Johnson. And while VIRGINIA likely does have much more to do with virginity, (or even the state), can't NOT look at the possibility when you're a sex researcher and therapist.

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posted August 08, 2015 04:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
Aubyanne

What seems off to me is how much importance you seem to place on close relationships, looking and fighting love, love in general. You had multiple boyfriends and I recall you write love must be the purpose of life or something like that. It all seems very unusual for someone who claims to be schizoid.

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Anomalia,

Good catch. Well, I like to think I'm recovered. Heh! And I've been told (incessantly) that a big part of the whole twin flame thing is supposed to be about love. I had some profoundly deep, karmic relationships in my adolescence and twenties. Clearing karma. Following 'the map' and ignoring that something was trying to tell me there was a reason why I wasn't happy. That I was following the wrong map.

I'm complicated in the sense that, in all of my relationships, (save for my boyfriend now) I've been the distant and aloof one. It was my boyfriends coming to me and saying we 'need to talk about the relationship' -- and I was, usually, literally playing some console game which allowed me to escape from my own thoughts for awhile, to where I'd actually asked them to please move away from the television; they were blocking my shot.

... Yeah.

Femininity has NOT come easily to me; I've often felt like it was a class I forgot to attend. It never mattered, either. I look back on who I was, and I was a very pragmatic, functional, somewhat androgynous but otherwise introverted individual. I don't think it truly made me happy, though, once I felt as if I'd earnt that merit badge, so to speak. I was ready to move on into other things. That's when I realised ... I had no idea how to do that!

So my best girlfriends were the ones who put up with me, accepting me as I am, and showing me the ropes, along with my mother. (A girl needs her peers, too.)

Somehow, I always found myself in the midst of sexual / romantic intrigues. Whether it was a teacher who expected it of his student in exchange for a grade (who hates me to this day, as, of course I reported his ass and launched a full investigation with my godfather, who's a retired PI) professors who were a little too friendly, (I don't blame the most of them, though -- only the one who was actually sleeping with my fellow students; the other two were socially awkward and rather endearing) or my boss in my first Real Adult Job (after college) who got me fired when I didn't accept his advances. Did I mention that I had really respected him up to that point, and felt a genuine kinship? C'est la vie.

So, sex fascinates me for the power it holds over people. And, I've learnt, in certain circumstances, I myself am not immune. It's a bit like a 64-bit encrypted password, however. The probability is exceedingly low.

I did fight love, for a long time. Long, long time. I try not to anymore. I try to be more loving, even if I haven't quite got the demonstrative thing down yet, and when my husband comes up behind me, seeking sexual attention, my thought is always 'what can I do that won't offend him?' Sexual men can become VERY offended -- deeply -- if their sexual advances are rejected. It's been hard for him to learn how truly I love him, in spite of the sexual advances. Further complicating, because of my relationship with my boyfriend. But he's also come to understand, over time, that what we have is ... well, in his words, 'just weird'. More of an escape from sexuality, but an exploration of intimacy. Something like that.

Is love the be-all, end-all of everything? For a twin flame relationship, unconditional love is a biggie; it's the salve that heals all karma. Is that the case for EVERYONE? I would never claim so.

My karmic soulmate, who chose never to recover from his schizoid personality, remains pretty shut off and lost. Who I once was. Like an abusive and snarky version of my boyfriend. Both flattened affect with distant personalities and attachment-avoidant. He decided to stay that way. There was nothing really propelling him to change, and he found it too hard to attempt it anyway.

I chose to heal. To discover what I might be missing. I evolved.

My boyfriend came to me, now 3 years ago, and said he thought he might be schizoid. Apparently, he'd paid close attention to my explaining my own experiences, and saw a match in his own. Then he investigated it. I'd already made my own secret diagnosis that he is, but I don't diagnose people out of hand. He'd come to that conclusion on his own and expressed a desire to grow and change. He wanted to be able to experience real attachment, and explore a true relationship together. I thought I was way ahead of the game. I wasn't!

Thus, we set out to learn a lot together. We're not doing too shabbily, considering.

Several people have been commenting on my social graces lately. I think I've come a long way.

posted August 08, 2015 04:30 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Of course one can feel sexual attraction outside interacting with the person; however, everything we feel outside an actual relationship can be an illusion.

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No, feelings are feelings, they are not an illusion.

However in terms of sexual attraction, i think we can be sexually attracted, but not compatible, and of course sexual compatibility can only be evaluated in the context of having sex with that other person.

posted August 08, 2015 04:30 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
Can I ask a silly question?

You guys actively reference sexual attraction. What does that feel like to you? What's the actual experience of it for you? Can you describe it ... at all?

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I think this is an interesting question, not silly at all! I wanted to ask the same, to women.
For me, it's mostly an oral thing....don't get any ideas ...just yet I mean, I want to kiss and eat the person (and my mouth is ready, like for a piece of cake haha). About other physiological consequences, I notice them afterwards, but I am not aware of them ( I am talking attraction from a distance here, no actual physical interaction).

posted August 08, 2015 04:36 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:

No, feelings are feelings, they are not an illusion.

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talking like a true Neptunian here. But to be honest, many feelings/attractions are illusions.
One classic example: you are abstinent and suddenly put on an island with three men. I guarantee you you will feel attracted to at least one of them, if not all three.
BUT meeting the same men in NY after one month of intensive dating... you could even feel repulsed by ever having been attracted to them, or at least wonder: what the hell happened?