posted September 01, 2015 08:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orange:
Venus in 12th is similar to Venus in Pisces

What these creatures want is to yearn for love, not to be given love on a silver platter.

The only way to have their heart is by torturing them, then love them in an passive - aggressive way. Being slightly or more so unattainable works wonders with these subjects.

This is the only way it works.

Loving them unconditionally with no fight, is never gonna work. They need to suffer for their love and being punished for it, too. Ohhh, the joy...

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posted September 01, 2015 08:27 PM            

you have a 12th house Venus? I didnt know that

well....werent you madly in love with your supposed twinflame for the longest time, while he didnt want anything to do with you in the romantic department? Wasn't it torturous and exasperating, yet you kept hoping and clinging years after years? We have all read your posts here dedicated to this impossible love.

posted September 01, 2015 08:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
I've got to say, Orange, being one with 12H VENUS, that's probably the absolute way to guarantee that a relationship would [b]never get off the ground with me. How did you ... decide upon this 'method' ? Forgive me, but it sounds horrendous; gamey, disingenuous, deceptive, and even a bit emotionally abusive.[/B]

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For me, following me down my path to wonderland is the way.

posted September 01, 2015 11:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orange:
Venus in 12th is similar to Venus in Pisces

What these creatures want is to yearn for love, not to be given love on a silver platter.

The only way to have their heart is by torturing them, then love them in an passive - aggressive way. Being slightly or more so unattainable works wonders with these subjects.

This is the only way it works.

Loving them unconditionally with no fight, is never gonna work. They need to suffer for their love and being punished for it, too. Ohhh, the joy...

---

posted September 01, 2015 11:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DopGang:
For me, following me down my path to wonderland is the way.

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That I can't argue!

I have to ask; how often is it actually unusual, even bizarre and otherworldly, rather than delusional or illusory? Fantastical, as opposed to fantasy?

posted September 01, 2015 11:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
I must say, no matter how much I try and want to be attracted to total bliss....a little drama that forces me to feel and fight some makes it easier to connect to my feelings since they are lost in my 12th house.(moon in 12th)
It's like we need something deep and awakening to us in order to feel whatever it is that's lost in our 12th.
Sometimes drama or pain will do that if there is a happy outcome eventually.

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There's truth in what Orange said. At least to me. There has to be some sort of pain, something I have to give up. It's like "Oh I'm willing to go through this and do this for that person, it must be love".

Like what my husband and I are going through. He's kind, and kindness costs dearly. He can't be kind to everyone. Someone will have to bear the burnt, I'd rather be that person, because I can keep the hurt contained and not let it get to him. I put on a brave face for him everyday, carry on like I have it under control. Doesn't matter how much pain it brings and how much pain I'm in, I encourage him to stay true to his nature and do what he must.

posted September 02, 2015 12:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:
There's truth in what Orange said. At least to me. There has to be some sort of pain, something I have to give up. It's like "Oh I'm willing to go through this and do this for that person, it must be love".

Like what my husband and I are going through. He's kind, and kindness costs dearly. He can't be kind to everyone. Someone will have to bear the burnt, I'd rather be that person, because I can keep the hurt contained and not let it get to him. I put on a brave face for him everyday, carry on like I have it under control. Doesn't matter how much pain it brings and how much pain I'm in, I encourage him to stay true to his nature and do what he must.

But through it all, I feel that I'm deeper and deeper in love with him. I'm beginning to think that I have masochistic tendencies.

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I completely agree, our "giving" of ourselves...kind of martyring ourselves to help them or protect them is part of the path we walk to feel alive and proud of who we in a relationship. It's how we open up and deeply bond to another.
We are lost in 12th house, we know for someone to truly join us they must dive in to our ocean. If they really jump in they will start to drown...if they dont it's obvious to us they were never really with us. I guess accepting some stress, pain or martyring ourselves is our way of returning the favor.
I prefer the issue to be something outside of us...like someone gets hurt and I have to help them or be there for them.
I can't stand ppl hurting me anymore. I'm at a place that I need a more mature version of this scenario. I still need the struggle I need to hurt some in order to feel how deeply I really feel....but I don't want a relationship that attacks my ego, mind or heart. I've outgrown that kind of relationship being ok with me😰

Here's an example...I had a boyfriend that I was iffy about...he wasn't quite what I wanted and I was on the fence about him. I got pregnant...still didn't know what I thought about him but decided to give it a go since I was pregnant. 4 months into the pregnancy I lost the baby....I carried her around for a week knowing she was dead but everyone thought I was crazy. I made an appointment for an emergency sonogram, I'd just had one the day before I felt her die and she was perfectly fine.
After we lost the baby I started to realize how deeply I cared about him! I started to really want him in my life.

It was only the extreme emotions of losing something I loved that allowed me go/feel deep enough that I could also touch the depth of feelings I felt for him. Before that everything was shallow...I was forced to go deeper through the pain of it all. If I'd had my choice I'd have stayed shallow, it's easier because I'm in total control if I don't feel. But I also miss out on the best things in life and I don't want that. So...I kind of want some kind of pain to being me closer to my feelings so I can touch them.
I believe that's why the pain/love is such a reoccurring theme with 12th house ppl/relationships....

I don't know why happiness and all the good emotions don't have this same affect...I guess because all our deep emotions are hidden behind our hurts, pains and fears. In order to feel them again we must first go through whatever pain and hurt it is that's standing in the way and blocking us from easily feeling it.
Through these relationships we are actually healing....we are using the pain to re-open doors we had closed.
This is the curse and the blessing of the 12th.
The day you stop longing to feel the pain of re-awakening is the day you stop growing because behind every one of those hurts is a tiny piece of you that's been abandoned, left behind crying and begging to be felt again so it can be reintegrated into it's home, reintegrate into you, instead of you forcing it be isolated and deal with the pain alone.
Everytime you find one of these and open back up to it you grow healthier and closer to having some form of sanity.

posted September 02, 2015 01:41 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:
... I'm beginning to think that I have masochistic tendencies.

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I was just going to say that; clearly, you're either masochistic, or are currently going through a stage or phase that is confronting such leanings within yourself. Most often, it's bottled anger, and unexpressed rage. There's often a powerful self-loathing that's become suppressed over time, or downright disowned, so that it must now be experienced externally, via another person.

posted September 02, 2015 01:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
I can't stand ppl hurting me anymore. I'm at a place that I need a more mature version of this scenario. I still need the struggle I need to hurt some in order to feel how deeply I really feel....but I don't want a relationship that attacks my ego, mind or heart. I've outgrown that kind of relationship being ok with me😰

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Thank goodness, Gabby! I'm so glad that you're past that, as you've said, and I would actually be delighted to help you understand and explore the more mature version of how relationships can help us to grow and evolve, rather than merely suffer, or allow others to do so.

posted September 02, 2015 02:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orange:
Auby,

you have a 12th house Venus? I didnt know that

well....werent you madly in love with your supposed twinflame for the longest time, while he didnt want anything to do with you in the romantic department? Wasn't it torturous and exasperating, yet you kept hoping and clinging years after years? We have all read your posts here dedicated to this impossible love.

That's what I meant, precisely.....

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Orange,

You misunderstand a little; I can see where the confusion would be present, so I'll gladly clarify. It's hardly impossible or even unrequited. It's difficult and deeply entwined with my soul's path, and, thus complicated. He taught me that I could never be too careful, or demand too much honesty in the arena of intimate relationships. Even though I'd waited several years to be sure of my own feelings -- as well as his -- I never anticipated the way he'd backpedal as severely as he has.

I learnt something else, too: to never trust what's in my heart, even that which I know is true, when the external reality refuses to realise or manifest it. There are a hundred thousand different ways in which someone can run from their feelings -- or even all feelings. For me, it was a bit like Ronstadt's 'Long, Long Time'; 'and I never drew one response from you; all the while you fell all over girls you never knew.' While that's a gross oversimplification, I didn't realise it, at the time, that he was incapable of intimate relationships -- period. Entirely. That we were too close; the last person he could ever be intimate with would be his best friend.

Did that break my heart? Oh, absolutely. Was I labouring under a delusion? Kind of. I was putting my faith in others whose opinions I trusted while I worked to become strong enough to truly believe in my own again. Yet, for all the way it fit, and even made sense, I couldn't relegate my (now) boyfriend to some 'lesser' status -- for lack of better. It didn't feel right; were I to be completely honest with myself, aspects and elements of him had been present throughout my life and experiences since early adolescence. This is something so strong and ever-present that it's been 'confirmed' in a manner of speaking, by several people. He's been 'there', somehow, in some form, in the back of my mind; in my literal dreams, in my work ... everywhere.

Something similar began happening regarding my karmic soulmate (the one in question here) but later on; in my 20s. Really, it seemed much more logical, and yet, much more 'otherworldly', given our psychic experiences, complicated history, and the way that everything felt as if it must be worth it -- eventually. We both bought into it. We created amazing things together, and had a crazy, powerful 2012.

Then it outlived its purpose. I no longer needed the abuse he was giving me, as a result of his inability to love himself. The relationship was essential, however. Without our going through what we did, and what it did for (and to) my marriage, my husband and I would've never been able to fully explore true polyamory later, when my boyfriend and I decided to get back together after two years.

Maybe the greater lesson is that we ultimately should trust ourselves in matters of the heart -- and have a small coterie of trusted advisers.

I'm glad that I tried. It was the first time I'd really dedicated myself to a very complicated relationship with a long-standing history; that I trusted my heart over everything that was happening at face-value. And, though I wasn't wrong, it did prove fruitless. And y'know what? C'est la vie. Lessons learnt, and I'm better for it.

Sometimes, we're going to get it wrong -- we're human. Other times, however, we're going to get it right.

posted September 02, 2015 02:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
I was just going to say that; clearly, you're either masochistic, or are currently going through a stage or phase that is confronting such leanings within yourself.

---

quote:

---

Most often, it's bottled anger, and unexpressed rage. There's often a powerful self-loathing that's become suppressed over time, or downright disowned, so that it must now be experienced externally, via another person.

I can't say I'd attribute that to the 12H VENUS, though. Perhaps some 'suffering in love', or having a tendency to play the martyr in relationships -- until proper self-esteem is acquired -- could be a feature of an immature or undeveloped 12H VENUS. Aspects likely play a role here, too; afflictions could express this way.

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No, I say that as a joke.

I don't suffer from anything you just stated. I assure you my self esteem is just how it needs to be. No self loathing or immature manifestation here. I'm a person with firm principles, dignity and value system.

What I'm going through with my husband is very different. He deals with malignant narcissistic parents. There's that, and there's filial piety to be considered. I myself do not subscribe to such beliefs, but the choice was between leaving and shouldering the burden with him. I chose the latter. That's the sacrifice I attribute to the 12th house venus

That's the lesson for me to learn. I grew up thinking in terms of "investments" and "returns", so it was important for me to think beyond that. To truly think for another person. It made me realize that I'm capable of more love than I previously assumed. And that my love for him is deeper than I thought.

I don't consider that being the martyr. It's cr*ppy for both he and I, the least I can do is to keep it together and give him encouragement.

----

posted September 02, 2015 03:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:
No, I say that as a joke.

I don't suffer from anything you just stated. I assured you my self esteem is just how it needs to be. No self loathing or immature manifestation here. I'm a person with firm principles and value system.

What I'm going through with my husband is very different. He deals with malignant narcissistic parents. There's that, and there's filial piety to be considered. I myself do not subscribe to such beliefs, but the choice was between leaving and shouldering the burden with him. I chose the latter. That's the sacrifice I attribute to the 12th house And it made me realize that my love for him is deeper than I thought.

I don't consider that being the martyr. It's cr*ppy for both he and I, the least I can do is to keep it together and give him encouragement.

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I suppose that's one way to look at it. I'll tell you, though, shouldering someone else's burden, merely for the sake of 'keeping it together' is rarely -- if ever -- worth it. I've rarely found a truly healthy esteem as part of that profile, too. It's more likely that a degree of masochism shouldn't be thought of as a joke. More akin to a Freudian slip.

posted September 02, 2015 03:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:
...He deals with malignant narcissistic parents. There's that, and there's filial piety to be considered.

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Has he read 'Toxic Parents' by Craig Buck and Susan Forward? It's a classic in the field by now. You'd like 'Toxic In-Laws', too, (which is just by Susan Forward). Both very good books; the former's been around forever (since the '90s) but the 'sequel' is newish. Builds upon the first book, but is a wonderful 'companion', for the spouse of the individual with the toxic parental relationship.

posted September 02, 2015 03:20 AM            

quote:

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I suppose that's one way to look at it. I'll tell you, though, shouldering someone else's burden, merely for the sake of 'keeping it together' is rarely -- if ever -- worth it. I've rarely found a truly healthy esteem as part of that profile, too. It's more likely that a degree of masochism shouldn't be thought of as a joke. More akin to a Freudian slip.

I suffered a lot -- so much, in fact -- too much. Then, one day, I just decided I was tired of it. I'm actually a lot happier now.

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Perhaps I should make it clearer so there'll be no more misunderstanding.

I put on a brave face and keep it together, so we both can pass this sh*t storm with as little damages as possible. Breaking down emotionally will just add to the damages and create more problems. I shoulder the burden with him so he won't have to feel alone. Give us hope. Because what we have, what we are and what we can be are worth every single tear. So far so good, it brings us closer, and brings out the fire in him. Very fitting for his saturn return.

Not "merely for the sake of keeping it together". It's not in my nature to put effort into something that empty.

If he's not worthy or if it offends my values I'd call it quite a long time ago

posted September 02, 2015 03:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
Has he read 'Toxic Parents' by Craig Buck and Susan Forward? It's a classic in the field by now. You'd like 'Toxic In-Laws', too, (which is just by Susan Forward). Both very good books; the former's been around forever (since the '90s) but the 'sequel' is newish. Builds upon the first book, but is a wonderful 'companion', for the spouse of the individual with the toxic parental relationship.

Narcissistic parents are rough, man.

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Heh love is a strange thing.

I suffered from my parents too, but I cut them out of my life until they learned to behave. My husband is a different sort of person. He has his Buddhism principles to follow and in general just too kind (to me). "They give me life" he said. I understand, somewhat, although if it were up to me, things would have turned out completely different.

They tried to commit suicide as a way to control him. They tried that with me once but it didn't work.

posted September 02, 2015 05:58 AM            

He believes (or wants to believe) that they can get pass this. Cured (or at least get better). Somehow.

posted September 02, 2015 06:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
That I can't argue!

I have to ask; how often is it actually unusual, even bizarre and otherworldly, rather than delusional or illusory? Fantastical, as opposed to fantasy?

Perhaps some of us 12H VENUS'ers are having more unusual relationships? With extraordinary features and experiences? I wonder.

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Rarely! (For me)
I mean in hindsight. I've had quite a few relationships but very few had any true fantastical value.

posted September 02, 2015 08:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:
*squeal*

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posted September 02, 2015 08:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gabby:
I completely agree, our "giving" of ourselves...kind of martyring ourselves to help them or protect them is part of the path we walk to feel alive and proud of who we in a relationship. It's how we open up and deeply bond to another.
We are lost in 12th house, we know for someone to truly join us they must dive in to our ocean. If they really jump in they will start to drown...if they dont it's obvious to us they were never really with us. I guess accepting some stress, pain or martyring ourselves is our way of returning the favor.
I prefer the issue to be something outside of us...like someone gets hurt and I have to help them or be there for them.
I can't stand ppl hurting me anymore. I'm at a place that I need a more mature version of this scenario. I still need the struggle I need to hurt some in order to feel how deeply I really feel....but I don't want a relationship that attacks my ego, mind or heart. I've outgrown that kind of relationship being ok with me😰

Here's an example...I had a boyfriend that I was iffy about...he wasn't quite what I wanted and I was on the fence about him. I got pregnant...still didn't know what I thought about him but decided to give it a go since I was pregnant. 4 months into the pregnancy I lost the baby....I carried her around for a week knowing she was dead but everyone thought I was crazy. I made an appointment for an emergency sonogram, I'd just had one the day before I felt her die and she was perfectly fine.
After we lost the baby I started to realize how deeply I cared about him! I started to really want him in my life.

It was only the extreme emotions of losing something I loved that allowed me go/feel deep enough that I could also touch the depth of feelings I felt for him. Before that everything was shallow...I was forced to go deeper through the pain of it all. If I'd had my choice I'd have stayed shallow, it's easier because I'm in total control if I don't feel. But I also miss out on the best things in life and I don't want that. So...I kind of want some kind of pain to being me closer to my feelings so I can touch them.
I believe that's why the pain/love is such a reoccurring theme with 12th house ppl/relationships....

I don't know why happiness and all the good emotions don't have this same affect...I guess because all our deep emotions are hidden behind our hurts, pains and fears. In order to feel them again we must first go through whatever pain and hurt it is that's standing in the way and blocking us from easily feeling it.
Through these relationships we are actually healing....we are using the pain to re-open doors we had closed.
This is the curse and the blessing of the 12th.
The day you stop longing to feel the pain of re-awakening is the day you stop growing because behind every one of those hurts is a tiny piece of you that's been abandoned, left behind crying and begging to be felt again so it can be reintegrated into it's home instead of isolated.
Everytime you find one of these and open back up to it you grow healthier and closer to having some form of sanity.

Sorry for typos, on my phone...

---

Brilliant, Gabby.

posted September 02, 2015 08:46 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:

Gabby: Gabby you made me tear up a little.

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posted September 02, 2015 08:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:

They tried to commit suicide as a way to control him. They tried that with me once but it didn't work.

He wants out, although I'm not sure if he can deal if they actually die at their own hands. This is something I can't help him with, he will have to decide on his own and accept the results.

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Oh god.....

Sorry you two are going through that, muddy

posted September 02, 2015 08:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
Sadly, we broke up about 6 months after all this...then he committed suicide and year later. The night he did this he text me as asked if we could talk...I didn't get the message until the next day after he was gone.

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