posted August 07, 2016 01:52 PM            

I'm on the inside. I've posted a few threads about my current situation and this relationship that's causing me so much pain and shame, and had many wise suggestions from the wonderful people on Lindaland, but I'm still really stuck and I wonder if, by taking a look at the synastry, someone can figure out a way to help me.

When I first came back to Lindaland, I didn't really know about Nessus and hadn't thought about that aspect much. I posted this synastry (sans asteroids) years ago, before the relationship was so horrible, and I got some dire predictions that turned out to be true. But recently I looked at Nessus placements out of curiosity, and the more fatalistic interpretations of Nessus-Venus conjunction seem to be accurate in the case of this relationship.

It is not a physically abusive relationship, but this man lied to me and betrayed me and crushed my spirit and it doesn't seem like a problem in my natal chart--this has not been my pattern in relationships---and some of the ways he's treated me, like giving me the silent treatment to punish me for being upset that he lied, are ways I've never been treated before. I've never felt so DEHUMANIZED by anyone. On my end, I have never felt such a strong desire to get violent with someone, although I don't get violent with him. It's complicated because at one time I thought I loved this guy more than any of the men I'd known before. Although my capacity to detach and move on from a relationship is LOW with everyone (7h Cancer stellium!), I did move on from him at one time. But then we got back together. At that time, I didn't have any indications that he was dishonest, and I believed that whatever happened between us we would always be friends.

I carefully read the thread on taking a fresh look at Nessus in the asteroid forum, and I would like advice on how to work constructively with Nessus in a synastry. It's all well and good to be like, Just run, run far away and end that relationship and don't get into a Nessus relationship again!!!!! But what about when the synastry is in a family relationship?

posted August 07, 2016 02:50 PM            

Can I ask, what is your desire for this relationship? Do you consider it romantically over (completely) or do you still harbor a wish for that to be rekindled?

I'm asking because it's easy to see how you are feeling stuck here, what with your Venus squaring his Mars-Pluto opposition, angular conjunctions and Vertex-Vertex.

The point you may need clarity about is whether or not you need to extricate yourself more fully, emotionally and possibly physically. I think your Mars quincunx his sun could be a factor in any indecision you might have...Mars doesn't know what to do about him exactly? Especially since your Mars is trine his ASC (which is square his sun.) Altogether you have a Pythagorean Triangle in this synastry: your Mars may be attracted to how he presents himself, undecided about how he actually is, and really mystified at the discrepancy (square) between how he seems (ASC) and who he is (sun).

posted August 07, 2016 03:33 PM            

With my 7h Cancer stellium and parents who divorced when I was 2, I have a strong (even desperate) desire for my daughter to be raised in an intact family. If that's impossible, the other options also seem kind of horrible to me.

I've rated what I see as the options here on a 1-10 scale, with 10 being the happiest:

-my daughter's father and I repair things romantically and raise her together (6/10)....this is impossible right now because he's pretty much unwilling, but if he were willing all if the things that are horrible about him would make it hard, unless he made a deep commitment to trying to change. But yes, it seems happier than the options i'm stuck with.

-we split time with our daughter 50/50 and see very little of each other. (2/10).....the same problems we would have romantically are there only exponentially worse if we try to be friends/coparents. I would lose my daughter for half of her life, AND she would lose each parent half the time, and I would still have to deal with watching him (or knowing about him) move on with some other woman, who would have a mother role in my daughter's life.

-I fight for majority custody of our daughter. (1/10). She grows up mostly without her dad, like I did. I raise her miserably and by myself, or with some guy who isn't her dad. Ugly legal battle further demoralizes me. Plus, I'm struggling so much with parenthood--doubt this would even be best for her.

-I run far away with our daughter. (2/10)--she still loses her dad, but we could be somewhere pretty great. The legal battle would be postponed until they found me.

-I abandon our daughter, and let him raise her. (0/10). I think that would be really miserable for our daughter. Not that I'm such a great parent, but she is really attached to me.

-He dies of natural causes (3/10)---awful for my daughter!!! So I shouldn't be giving it such a high rating.

for me with my stellium, the relationship does not end EVER as long as we have a child together--it only changes form. And he would have to make the same changes for us to be okay as friends and/or businesslike co-parents as he would for us to work out romantically, and he very likely can't or won't make those changes.

I was beyond shocked at the gap between who I thought he was and who he was--when I found out he had lied to me, we'd known each other for four years and he was someone I deeply trusted.

I'm not someone who can detach emotionally from anything ever---that said, when he left me the first time (after a very short relationship that was disproportionately meaningful to me) I DID heal and move on. Now if I get him out of my life enough to feel better, it will mean my daughter losing one or both parents. and me losing the life I want with my daughter.

posted August 07, 2016 04:04 PM            

Whenever there's a power struggle between us, I lose. The usual things I've done in life to ensure that I'm treated well or that I bring what I want into being just do not work in the situation.

posted August 07, 2016 07:13 PM            

I can be annoyingly optimistic even in dire situations as I've displayed for you before so I'm leery of my own ability to give advice that doesn't sound wacky. But I'll try....

The 6/10 if you recover the relationship makes me sad. You're a great person and we need 10/10 for you. <3

There is toxicity here because he betrayed you and now you are bound within a sense of hopelessness. My "prescription" would be to rebuild your hope systematically by taking a totally different approach. In my opinion, as an outsider, what becomes immediately apparent is, you need emotional distance from him. A hands-off stance, with as little engagement as possible. You really need to be centered, present, and aware to keep your reflexes fresh and detached in his presence. So you know to pick your battles and don't squander peace of mind on anything that is not vital to your daughter's well-being. And I don't know if it's appropriate to touch on this but I think your hope for the 6/10 "back together" resolution may cause additional pain and frustration.

Because that's basically what desire does...it causes pain and frustration.

If you can just take it one day at a time, that attitude may improve how the days transpire, and before you know it you two are on better ground that opens up new hopes for a resolution you wouldn't have dared to dream before. His 12H moon conjunct Neptune ought to be able to catch the subtle winds of change and maybe he can avail himself of the magic of it, and the healing. I think in his own mind he never meant harm and has a hard time connecting with how he unintentionally caused so much damage.

ETA: I believe that it's more effective to draw good towards ourselves by maintaining a positive "attracting" stance, rather than reaching out and pushing for certain outcomes that we deem good, where we are driven by a sense of lack. Push versus pull. The pulling-in tactic is based on trust in life and ourselves; other people can't interfere with it or thwart it because we are content within ourselves. That draws people in. I'm not saying "Convince half your mind to forget him and the other half can keep a flame burning that he'll come back." I'm saying that when we let go, certain magical things happen that we can bank on and look forward to, including romance in your case. I'm sure of it because you are so damn cool already. Your options will increase along with discernment about which way to go.

quote:

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I'm not someone who can detach emotionally from anything ever

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You gotta read Eckart Tolle please. And reinvent your way of thinking...because we all have this latent power to detach and it's beautiful and amazing. You just need the instruction book and some practice.

quote:

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A huge part of it is that I feel so powerless. He gets to decide whether we're together or not.

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If you can reclaim your power by being the one who decides "this is over," well...why choose him over your own power? The limbo is your choice, too, if you think about it. You COULD cut him off at least from your romantic radar. You can just look at it a different way, that's what I'm saying.

posted August 07, 2016 07:45 PM            

I think the problem (again, like Faith said) is that you feel romantically entangled with that person. You just yelled at me yesterday to be strong!
You can be strong. You can cut him out emotionally! You can date other people. You can feel pretty. You can feel desired. Not all men are scum and you know that!
Who am I to say, right? I'm doing a similar thing. BUT. I know this man that I pine for is ultimately no good. I think people deceive themselves thinking that there is more to a relationship or a potential relationship when there is nothing more.
People tell you and show you who they are. You just have to look at their actions. Words almost don't matter.
This is more a reminder to me, but maybe it will do you good too:
Sometimes people are not good. Sometimes they cheat and lie and are no good FOR you. And that's OK. You told me: you have to see the abuse for what it is and detach. I know it's hard because you have a daughter together. But still, you can emotionally detach. He's good to your daughter - that's all that should matter.
He crushed your spirit - do you really want to get together with that?
I had a friend who had a baby with the wrong guy. It took her SO much to finally come together with her current beloved, who is now her husband. Her daughter's dad is in the picture but she completely detached from him emotionally. He's a good dad and that's all she ever really needed. He's around, his daughter sees him. They are finally happy. It's going to happen to you too. But you have to let go.

posted August 07, 2016 08:17 PM            

Yeah, everyone be strong. It's just boys.

posted August 07, 2016 09:22 PM            

How would you say this plays out?

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posted August 07, 2016 11:08 PM            

@Yin @Faith:
-what about holidays? I can't keep spending holidays with him (which is what we've done for the year since we split up) if we're not together, especially if he's with a new partner. Too humiliating and demoralizing. So for the rest of my daughter's life, she'll be spending her holidays split up from one of her parents. I don't want to spend any holidays apart from my child.

He's taking away what I want most--to be a family with her--all because he doesn't value me enough to think i'm worth being with.

-I had a stepmother and a stepfather. I wish I hadn't! I don't want that for my daughter!!!!! I don't want her to see her mommy feeling pretty and dating various guys until I can come up with one who's husband material--and then that guy will be in a father role for my daughter. I want her to see her mommy as a beautiful Leo who no man would ever voluntarily reject! Yin, I know all men aren't scum....but I also know about my friends' experiences and my own as single women over 35. I probably would not have left my college boyfriend after 14 years if I'd known what it was going be like. i wish when I was three that I had not been the daughterof a struggling single mother who was dating. I wish she had not married my stepfather.

-it might be that the next person my ex gets serious with is perfectly okay as a mother for my child.....but it also might NOT be. I read a site called Surviving Infidelity--I don't post there, especially because I'm technically not "surviving infidelity," but reading those stories is one of the very few things that's made me feel better. Soooo many of them are stories of men who cheat on a wife who is pregnant and has a 2-year-old at home---anyway, in the US at least, a mother can be LEGALLY FORCED to share custody of her child(ren) with an ex who is living with or married to his affair partner. The next woman my ex is serious with will be in a mother role to my daughter. I DO NOT WANT THAT.

It was horrible spending (some) summers with my dad and his new family. Not horrible like I was abused or something, but, horrible.

This is just not what I want as a mother--it's not the kind of family I want.

@Faith, "His 12H moon conjunct Neptune ought to be able to catch the subtle winds of change and maybe he can avail himself of the magic of it, and the healing"----yeah, every time I start to do a little better and my vibe is better, he comes around wanting to reopen that romantic door. EVERY time. To be fair, he's also come around that way a few times when my vibe was bad and I was depressed with bitter fury. When that happens, every time I've been open to it, but he won't try any of the things that I think would make it work. (I don't even mean working on himself so he becomes honest and trustworthy, the stuff that would make it a 10/10.....I mean just agreeing that we would get a babysitter once a month for a few hours and be alone together. He won't just agree to that!!!! And his refusal would be much more okay if he was just feeling "I'm done with this relationship," but if every time he's alone with me he suddenly starts crying and says he still loves me and he feels tormented.....it's just so annoying that when I respond with ideas of things we could try, some of them so forgiving and positive and if we tried them they would work, he goes off to just sort of pout and ignore me and stew again.). (He doesn't cry often, it's just that we've only been alone together a few times in the three years since I've had the baby.)

i don't want to settle for less than what I want, but I am forced to, and that makes me so angry.

posted August 07, 2016 11:41 PM            

If I heal enough to do that again--then he'll come back to me and ask me to marry him. (He has the ring, still.). and we'll circle around back to this point because he is an emotionally retarded doucheweasel with zero integrity, who compartmentalizes scarily and is a liar and plays the victim in his own head--6/10 is generous, and it's so high because I DO NOT WANT TO SPLIT CUSTODY OF MY DAUGHTER and I do not want to separate her from her father or from her mother.

So I guess what I want actually IS kind of the opposite of that:
-I want to exert my will and be the one to decide when or if we split up.
-he manifests his Moon-Neptune in the lamest possible ways (some of the good ways, too---but all the really bad ones)-----and I kind of don't want him to sense the healing winds of change coming from me and rouse himself from his web surfing and cry and tell me he loves me and try to make out with me again---I want him to feel enough genuine remorse to try things my way.

posted August 08, 2016 12:02 AM            

I have not seen it in my chart work but I suspect it could play out as if your power is not seen or heard and you may feel as if you are flailing or continually treading water but can't break out in a crawl to the side of the pool.

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posted August 08, 2016 12:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
It's easy to see how you are in a hard situation, but my concern is that you are just burning yourself out by clinging to a need for certain desired outcomes.

My concern is that stress and anger can have a disastrous effect on health, and your daughter needs you to be healthy.

---

Yeah, that's already happened really badly over the past couple of years--my mental health is poor. Which is a cycle---depression sort of worsens itself. I haven't been sure how to get help. I've gone to a couple of therapists--neither suggested medication, but I've thought about it and been scared/hesitant to try it.

Seeing and dealing with him is brutal--like tonight, I was trying my best but it was just awful--and even with trying to practice enough emotional self-control to detach, i'm psychologically very injured and I think I would need to be in a different situation to get better.

I do try the kind of stress relievers that don't have bad side effects (yoga, meditation, ashwagandha supplements)....they help in the sense that I'm still here, functioning. Sort of.

TMercury conjunct my annoying Mars in Virgo today, opposite tNeptune---I'm not usually quite this rant-y.

My kid has been VERY active and demanding and nonstop from the beginning (before the beginning---even though I gave up sugar and caffeine, she kicked and wiggled like crazy in the womb)....and I,m an inept mother who was never around babies before.....and one of the ways my ex and I always communicated well was physically, and every time he tried to touch me or talk to me she would scream.....she would elbow him away with her tiny elbow. We struggled with things like independent sleeping. I really really needed help and somehow I found myself without it.

i'm whining/ranting--but I AM also paying attention to what you're saying.

posted August 08, 2016 12:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
[b]@Ami Anne, would the unaspected Pluto contribute to (or cause) my feeling of total powerlessness in the relationship?

I have not seen it in my chart work but I suspect it could play out as if your power is not seen or heard and you may feel as if you are flailing or continually treading water but can't break out in a crawl to the side of the pool.

[/B]

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posted August 08, 2016 01:05 PM            

This is my chart with the degrees (it's my natal + solar return coming up this weekend):

posted August 08, 2016 01:22 PM            

edit..I had posted her chart but maybe that is more confusing than clarifying.

She had:
23 Leo sun
18 Leo Venus
12 Leo Mercury

Her Psyche 2 Aqua conjunct yours I think.

posted August 08, 2016 02:01 PM            

Weird social context here.

I don't want to compare you to her at all.

Even though there are similarities.

The short version: she was bitter that my dad's family treated her like she was beneath them.

quote:

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I really really needed help and somehow I found myself without it.

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That is just so sad. Tragic. I know how much it takes to raise a baby, especially the first child, when you are going out of your mind with sleeplessness, worry about not knowing what to do, and...more worries distorted by not getting enough sleep.

posted August 08, 2016 02:04 PM            

let's say you had come to me and I could have told you what would have happened, would you have listened?

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posted August 08, 2016 02:17 PM            

Yes, talented in the arts but no time to do much with it. She was ambidextrous, taught my siblings piano, made it a priority to give me art lessons...

posted August 08, 2016 03:37 PM            

Now, because fatalistic interpretations about this relationship turned out to be so accurate, I would place much greater weight and importance on it if I brought you a new synastry and you said, "Lucia, this relationship will make you feel powerless."

@Yin, this goes with what I was saying up above about parenting support---I guess my kid is especially difficult and I am especially inept, but when I hear about people who are single parents with kids under 3 dating, it's hard to twist my head around it---I guess they have more money than I do and more support and their kids are easier and more independent?

@Faith, I just needed--still need---someone who understands and doesn't judge me and who I don't feel self-conscious around to sit with me and be with me and talk with me. I got so isolated. My daughter has many wonderful qualities, but from very early on she was a real stinker if I ever tried to make a phone call around her or have a friend visit, or hug her dad or talk to him for a few minutes. (It was never a phase---when she was like two months old at mommy and me classes and the other babies were lying on blankets, my little one would be moving around aggressively trying to make mischief. We got politely kicked out of mommy-baby yoga--the teacher suggested we move a year early to the toddler yoga class since my daughter was just walking around grabbing things. But in the toddler class they were given feathers to play with and I was there with a grabby ten month old and grabby ten month olds try to eat feathers.)

I feel self-conscious about my parenting (it's that Saturn-Moon conjunction in 7h Saturn.)

I just started my daughter in nursery school two mornings a week this week. The first day went well and she loved it. The second day started out okay, but then they called and said she was having a meltdown. She got through it, but every time I try to do anything--like get a sitter or bring her to a group event--I feel scared that she'll melt down. I've read a lot about all of this and tried many things. She also has the capacity to be a perfect little angel. She's hyperverbal, with a big vocabulary--and she came into the world with a strong will....

I feel bad ranting about her, will probably edit this....but I've just gotten so isolated. I'm good at making friends (Leo Sun-Merc, I'm shy but pretty extroverted), but when I make mom friends around here my daughter is so much more challenging than their kids that it's embarrassing and I can't relax and have a nice time.

posted August 08, 2016 04:00 PM            

My little one who is six just started Tae Kwon Do and refused to follow any directions, he was just bouncing around and trying to entertain the parents there. My husband said everyone was laughing and having a good time but I still was embarrassed. It was hard for me to deal with that, I started blaming myself and needing him to do better so I could feel better (typical Capricorn parent stuff.) But with some encouragement he did better the next time. And even if he didn't, certain activities are not for everyone.

I used to get bored in school, overtalk like I do here, and get put in the corner so much, other kids regarded me as a criminal type.

posted August 08, 2016 04:08 PM            

You need a tribe, IMO. We're here for you. I'm sorry I'm not too active here - super busy with work and school and I've been away from LL for years now but you deserve all the support you can get. Even if I don't say anything, I have the feels for you and you have my support and admiration!