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Author Topic:   education and the worth of degrees
FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 17, 2013 01:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Man, I feel like a fish out of water in these Grad classes. I have always been the smartest person in class, and now everyone in class is smart!

Competition is going to make you better.

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jellyfishtry
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posted August 18, 2013 10:35 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FruitTreeFresh:
How old is too old for a Finance/Economics masters?

If you want to continue working in Finance, like specifically that, better get your CFA, an MBA is more general.

But also i think the MBA in some uni's is going through a 'strange' time, i know so many people who aren't smart at all and got into and graduated from places like Columbia within the past 2-3 year....u know why? firstly because they are foreign, and all universities make it easier for foreingers than national to get in and

secondly and more importantly because mummy and daddy have 'cleverly' channeled all the money back home into private bank accounts (a lot from corrupt countries)...which may explain why it went from a top 10 uni to i don't 14th place or something (but apparently they need the money)

on the other hand if you can manage something like Harvard or Stanford which still have some proper entrance requirements then go for it....or in Europe HEC (this is where you really go if you are that good in finance) or INSEAD, then go for it.

But for now start with your CFP, and be warned the tests are killer, but you have to do it all on your own, so that's why once you get the qualification people feel assured that they did a good job by hiring you.
A uni professor that worked for some of the biggest banks and advised governments told me to do that when still studying (very charming nerd over here)...and if i still had any interest in these things would have done that...but i don't...but u do, so passing on the information to you

hope this was of any use to you!!

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 19, 2013 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thank you jellyfish!

but the thing is which degree is more relevant?

There is MBA, Masters in Finance, Masters in Economics and Masters in Financial Engineering (yuck) and Masters in Financial Economics; I love the latter but I'm not sure how it can advance me to the front office.

I know Masters from Big Names are important but I also want to learn something that is different from the norm.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 19, 2013 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FruitTreeFresh:
thank you jellyfish!

but the thing is which degree is more relevant?

There is MBA, Masters in Finance, Masters in Economics and Masters in Financial Engineering (yuck) and Masters in Financial Economics; I love the latter but I'm not sure how it can advance me to the front office.

I know Masters from Big Names are important but I also want to learn something that is different from the norm.



I'm a banker. It depends on what you want to do with the degree, what aspect of banking are you interested in and which company you hope to work for. It all depends. BTW, I have three of those lol

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 19, 2013 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:

I'm a banker. It depends on what you want to do with the degree, what aspect of banking are you interested in and which company you hope to work for. It all depends. BTW, I have three of those lol

LOL what?! How much time did you take to complete all the masters? Which one do you like best?

I'm all along in trading and asset management related but I don't fancy engineering coz I don't want to be a quant.

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 19, 2013 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And why MBA?

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Randall
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posted August 20, 2013 10:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hope so.

quote:
Originally posted by FruitTreeFresh:
Competition is going to make you better.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 20, 2013 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FruitTreeFresh:
LOL what?! How much time did you take to complete all the masters? Which one do you like best?

I'm all along in trading and asset management related but I don't fancy engineering coz I don't want to be a quant.


Well, I did my Masters in Economics along with my Bachelors. It was supposed to take five years. I did it in four.

Then I went into M&A and did some LBO work. And then I returned to business school. Then I did an MBA in Finance & Accounting and I did a Masters in Intl Banking degree. It was a joint degree program that was supposed to take three years. I did it in two without a summer internship.

Then I went into the venture capital/private equity world for a while before settling down in corporate banking.

If you want to be in Trading and don't want to be a Quant, then you need a top quality MBA with a focus on the fixed income and forex capital markets. The other degrees are asinine.

As for MBA, go big or go home. Wharton, Chicago, NYU are all great for capital markets. I stayed in NYC and went to Columbia. Please don't end up at some softie school like Yale or Northwestern if you want to be hired as a trader. The days of Harvard MBAs hired at Goldman and JP Morgan sales and trading are over. They want hardcore finance types, if not pure risk takers.

This is especially true if you are a woman competing in the macho male lions' den. I'm not a trader myself. Just not my thing. I prefer making and structuring deals.

In trading, I would advise focusing on treasuries and std products like spot/forward FX and the hedging derivatives like swaps, options and commodity forwards. The exotics go out of style quickly and don't make for a stable career path.

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 20, 2013 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How about research and economics?

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 20, 2013 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FruitTreeFresh:
How about research and economics?

For equity research, you need your CFA certification, not a degree. For debt research, you will need your PhD in Finance. For economics research, you will need your PhD in Economics. Masters degrees are useless for research. You would be under credentialed.

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 21, 2013 12:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
For equity research, you need your CFA certification, not a degree. For debt research, you will need your PhD in Finance. For economics research, you will need your PhD in Economics. Masters degrees are useless for research. You would be under credentialed.

Wow thanks you vm YTA.. Very insightful. I'm working towards advisory role and so am thinking of financial economics. wiill there be any difference getting PhD in different schools?

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 21, 2013 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FruitTreeFresh:
Wow thanks you vm YTA.. Very insightful. I'm working towards advisory role and so am thinking of financial economics. wiill there be any difference getting PhD in different schools?

Hopefully your college grades are good. Your GREs should hopefully be up to snuff too, but they aren't super important.

Finance and Applied Economics are the domain of MIT, Wharton/Penn, Chicago, Stanford, Harvard, NYU, Columbia, Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA, Texas/Austin, etc. All top PhD programs are fundamentally difficult to get into. Once again, finance and economics means you must become a quant. You ever seen economics papers at the PhD level?

PhD education at the top level is generally free. You will be expected to be some Teaching or Research Assistant, in which case tuition will be met with scholarship (need blind) and basic living expenses will be met with stipends. It is possible to get away spending less than $5K a year while completing a top PhD. Then again, MIT takes only 15-20 people per year.

Again, go big or go home. Get into the biggest name brand school that interests you because ultimately the name brand is what you carry with you for the rest of your career and it's the name brand that gets you into the front door of institutions. From then on, job performance will carry you.

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 21, 2013 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
For equity research, you need your CFA certification, not a degree.

Can I substitute CFA with a good MBA? My grades were lousy but I'm working on GMAT now.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 21, 2013 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FruitTreeFresh:
Can I substitute CFA with a good MBA? My grades were lousy but I'm working on GMAT now.


Of course. You can't just get a CFA without working. Get the MBA and then work at a top financial institution, which will then sponsor you for the CFA exam. There are three parts to the CFA. The first part is easy. The final part is challenging. It's not actually studying for the CFA that is difficult. It is studying for the CFA while maintaining a 75+ hour a week job plus keeping a relationship going that makes it a killer.

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 22, 2013 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's all about the money money money. Learning is dead.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 22, 2013 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If it is truly about the money, then you should be a trader, not do research.

How old are you and what sort of money do you aspire to earn by 30 years old and at the pinnacle of your career?

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 22, 2013 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
If it is truly about the money, then you should be a trader, not do research.

How old are you and what sort of money do you aspire to earn by 30 years old and at the pinnacle of your career?


Mid 20s. But traders doesn't live long in the industry. Though I aim to pass quarter million by 30. I'm seeking for recognition in the industry too.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted August 22, 2013 10:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have modest expectations.

My business school mate became a fixed income trader. He made $5 million in his second year. He was 25.

My college classmate joined Goldman in mortgage finance. He made Managing Director by 28, and he wasn't even a trader. Just a salesman. Paycheck was over $10 million a year.

I wasn't do lucky since I was just a regular Joe investment banker on the execution side, so my paycheck was much smaller.

But I made quarter before business school. Aim higher.

Of course, John Paulson and Steve Cohen rake a couple billion a year. Lol.

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FruitTreeFresh
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posted August 22, 2013 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FruitTreeFresh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
You have modest expectations.

My business school mate became a fixed income trader. He made $5 million in his second year. He was 25.

My college classmate joined Goldman in mortgage finance. He made Managing Director by 28, and he wasn't even a trader. Just a salesman. Paycheck was over $10 million a year.

I wasn't do lucky since I was just a regular Joe investment banker on the execution side, so my paycheck was much smaller.

But I made quarter before business school. Aim higher.

Of course, John Paulson and Steve Cohen rake a couple billion a year. Lol.


Lol. But how did they get the job in the first place? Exceptional academics credentials? Networking?

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NoRainNoRainbows
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posted August 23, 2013 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NoRainNoRainbows     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
You have modest expectations.

My business school mate became a fixed income trader. He made $5 million in his second year. He was 25.

My college classmate joined Goldman in mortgage finance. He made Managing Director by 28, and he wasn't even a trader. Just a salesman. Paycheck was over $10 million a year.

I wasn't do lucky since I was just a regular Joe investment banker on the execution side, so my paycheck was much smaller.

But I made quarter before business school. Aim higher.

Of course, John Paulson and Steve Cohen rake a couple billion a year. Lol.


but that was the 80-90's and back then your colleagues were really worth the degrees they are holding.

These days, the attitudes, the economies, the secrets which have become known, and the fact that money can also get you into the university you want and not necessarily only brains, changed everything.

Not to mention the government controls in most other countries to make sure these things happen to fewer and fewer people....i can go on....

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mirage29
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posted August 27, 2013 03:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Man, I feel like a fish out of water in these Grad classes. I have always been the smartest person in class, and now everyone in class is smart!

Smart can seem superior, but it has limits. Wisdom is the true treasure, earned through life experience. Your Wisdom knows how to tell Smarts the best use for 'what they know.'

I know how 'fun' an intellectual contest can be... But to avoid being demoralized, concentrate on what YOU are doing. You're building a reference bank... tools you'll need for the real life situations you'll face once you have the degree. Think of the application of this knowledge, rather than winning the contest by making the highest grades? Grades only show how well you take tests.

But Masters Levels, you're mostly writing papers? (Think of 'how' you can tweak and 'publish' these as articles afterwards in professional journals. )

I'm sooo excited for you!

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Randall
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posted January 02, 2014 03:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks!

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Randall
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posted January 08, 2014 02:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm a good writer, but I don't like doing it.

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mirage29
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posted January 08, 2014 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^ Becoming a lawyer, right? Doesn't that involve doing 'writing homework' every day?

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Ellynlvx
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posted January 18, 2014 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ellynlvx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was just thinking about College, seeing this Thread fly by the corner of my eye.

I think it depends a lot on your goals.

For me, the Journey was more than the Destination. I mean, it really opened a lot of doors in my mind when I went to School. I flew by when I was there, carried many Units. Of course I managed it...

I really think I would have gotten the most out of the Education if I would have taken less and explored it more. Not to say that I don't use it even unto this day, I just think I would have enjoyed it more.

I think it's also important to do what you love.

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