posted July 22, 2006 12:21 PM         

So....
Like give an example if you could.....
What makes you feel jealous?

And is wishing one had more money jealousy?
Or is it only if you covet what others have money wise?
Or is wanting money not a form of true jealousy?
I mean if you are happy for their prosperity even, or perhaps do not give a fig how rich another is, only that you wish you were "TOO".....is that jealousy? Or is it only jealousy if you want them too lose it or hate them for being wealthy?
Or is none of that true jealousy?

posted July 22, 2006 12:33 PM         

In adolescence it was mundane things. Like when one of my more "prettier" or "outgoing" friends would get more male attention. Or, there was the time when my family went to this wedding, and I we were talking to a handsome guy . He kept telling my mother how pretty my sister was, but said nothing about me. The fact that he was my mother's age makes it laughable but at the time I was seeing green and red. I know you're probably laughing by now. But I was a teenager and a little chunky

posted July 22, 2006 01:00 PM         

"Seeing green" is an expression for envy, and perhaps greed.
"Seeing red" is an expression for wrath.
I'm not sure if there is an expression for jealousy.

Most people who experience jealousy do not believe it serves a purpose. And I am not suggesting that it is something to be encouraged (or discouraged), but, simply, that it is something to be investigated, - even listened to, in a sense, - and not altogether dismissed and invalidated. When we do this, it just keeps coming back, until we learn what it has to teach us.

Those feelings of jealousy are a cry from your soul, to get you to value yourself (and what you have to offer) more, and to place yourself in relationships with people who truly value you, and whom you feel you can trust. But, until you love and value yourself, you will never be comfortable with others valuing you, or fully trust anybody who tells you they love you. That is my two cents.

"Every angel is terrifying." - Rilke

Fayte,

No, that is not jeaousy. You are talking about desire, covetousness, envy, and, perhaps, greed. It is not wrong to want money (or to feel anything). Money is one form of energy. We attract money by feeling deserving of abundance (in the form of money). We block the flow of money by feeling undeserving or guilty in connection with that form of energy.

Jealousy is connected to the fear of "losing" someone, or something, to seeing others as a threat, and to not trusting the universe. We are jealous of people whom we fear may take what we think we have. We are envious of those who seem to have what we want and think we do not have. Often the two are found together. It is worth noting that all vices are merely the shadows of virtues. One cannot desire virtue, without envying the virtue of others. The only difference is perspective; when we see ourselves as desirous of virtue, we do not suspect the envious shadow that is there. We secretly resent all the things we love, until we learn to identify with those things. This is why it is so important to imagine Christ (for example) as an aspect of oneself, indeed, as one's innermost essence, and not as something or someone outside of ourselves, whom we ought to venerate. Our veneration is just a disguised envy, and will always end in feelings of worthlessness and resentment for the object of our veneration (which is, paradoxically, the thing which causes us to feel worthless, and the instrument of our self-torture).

Wanting someone to lose is malice.
Hating them for having is hate (mixed with envy and resentment).

Meanwhile....

Still looking at our charts. You are definitely a warrior who heals and is healed by taking a stand. Where are Chiron and Pallas in your chart?

posted July 22, 2006 01:07 PM         

I asked about the first house thing because the moon is Emotion and the first house puts your emotions right out there... Hsc and I share that "emotional" placement that is often described as someone who wears their heart on their sleeve. The Cap AC tames it at first, until we feel comfortable with others.
My Cap moon keeps me a little more reserved than Hsc, whose Aquarius moon makes everyone his "friend," as Aquarians have such advanced and open-minded thinking. I am more careful with whom and when I share, but this repression also causes a build-up that can release under stress, so it is not the preferred method, although my first house moon does allow me more release than the average person, it would seem...

Here is Wikapedia on Jealousy:

"Jealousy is an emotion by one who perceives that another person is giving something that he/she wants or feels is due to them (often attention, love, respect or affection) to an alternate. For example, a child will likely become jealous when their parents give sweets to a sibling but not to them. An adult may become jealous if they observe that their lover is flirting with someone else, perceiving a threat to their relationship. While the child's jealousy might be assuaged if they received candy from their parents as well, the jealous lover desires that the affections of their lover be directed exclusively to themselves and would not be assuaged by an equal share of attention.

Some authorities (e.g., Rawls, A Theory of Justice, 1971) distinguish between jealousy and envy on the ground that jealousy involves the wish to keep what one has, and envy the wish to get what one does not have. (Thus, the child is jealous of her parents' attention to a sibling, but envious of her friend's new bicycle.) This is problematic in that, e.g., a teenager may be jealous of the affection a rock star bestows on his fiancée, even though the teenager neither has nor thinks she has that affection herself. Others suggest that the key difference between envy and jealousy is the involvement of a third party: it is not merely that the jealous person wishes to have the attention for himself, or that the third party who is getting it would not get it, but rather that he wishes the person of whom he is jealous would not give that attention to a third party. Some even claim a distinction between jealousy and envy insofar as while envy is the carnal desire to possess something that is not yours, jealousy is the righteous feeling that one has towards that which is rightly his (such as a spouse's fidelity).

Another common distinction between jealousy and envy is that envy is the desire for something in general (one envies a friend's new bike), whereas jealousy is the desire to have something in particular, and to take it from someone else (one is jealous of a friend's girlfriend).

For this kind of reason, some have suggested that jealousy most centrally concerns one's perception of oneself. (Jeffrie Murphy, William Pennell Rock). The perception that a person whose evaluation matters a great deal to us prefers someone else can make us doubt our own worth. "

I agree with this:

"Some even claim a distinction between jealousy and envy insofar as while envy is the carnal desire to possess something that is not yours, jealousy is the righteous feeling that one has towards that which is rightly his (such as a spouse's fidelity)."

I think jealousy in relationships occurs when either there hasn't been enough communication to fully understand each other's expectations and where each person agrees the focus of the relationship should be, or jealousy occurs because one person is deviously not following the general agreed upon "form" of the relationship. If the agreed upon "form" is no form at all, then any jealousy that arises is due to unrealistic expectations of self.

I don't see jealousy as bad or good. I see it as a symptom that leads to the real issue. I don't see it as a lack of self-esteem, I see it as an indication that either more communication is needed, or that the relationship isn't what it seems. I also think that most adults don't have the communication skills necessary to heal the problem, and some don't have the moral fiber to have an honest relationship. So, they make the jealousy something bad that they have to project onto someone else.

It's "that wh*** 's" fault instead of the husband not keeping the original deal. Or it's the jealous partner's "low self-esteem" instead of something the other partner needs to look at in their behavior, or boundaries the couple needs to address together.

I think jealousy is a sign of high esteem. High esteem for what you deserve, high esteem for what you expect from your partner, and high esteem for the relationship itself.

posted July 22, 2006 01:42 PM         

My aqua moon also seeks freedom in expressing emotions. I read somewhere that the aqua moon is frigid until this freedom is achieved, after which point the native may be frustrated with others' lack of emotional forthrightness. Makes sense to me.

Fayte's Sun and Moon are squared, and her Moon is very tightly conjunct Mars (which, of course, also squares her close sun/saturn conjunction), while my moon is in positive aspect to mars and mercury, and negative aspect to jupiter and neptune.... again, while her sun is conjunct Saturn, mine is conjunt venus and uranus,... so, there are plenty of differences right there. Still, I have a strong mars, but it is more mentally directed than emotional in expression. Her Venus is square Pluto, which I dont envy, but, it is also trine Juptier and Uranus, which I do envy quite a bit. All in all, this is getting really complicated.

posted July 22, 2006 02:01 PM         

quote:

---

I've always approached relationships idealistically.
I always think I can say it all.
I think I can wrangle the insecurities,
anticipate all the assumtions,
discuss the experience of union with perfect detachment,
and unmask the dynamics before they take shape.
Its impressive, exhausting, and comical to see me try.
Attempting to fill the spurs of Gallahad,
I end up a second-rate Don Quixote!

Occassionally, I'm lucky enough to meet an equally idealistic girl who appreciates my affectionate nature and my candor. At first, you cant imagine the sense of relief, at being able to communicate in this way. We express our mutual contempt for games, and how committed we are to keeping that initial purity intact....

Then REAL feelings, and reality set in.

And, however conscious we are of this or that,
we must admit that the same old rules of the game apply, -
that, we are unconsciously conditioned to observe them,
and, if we dont wise up and learn to play the game,
we're just going to end up throwing it.

Swerve, if you met a girl who matched the intensity, sincerity, and openness which you are so proud of in yourself (and I dont blame you; I pride myself on the same qualities),
you would begin to lose respect for her love,
which seemed to come so cheap,
and to view her in the same desperate light
in which your yourself have been cast.

We think we can begin with absolute trust...
Like, "Shhh.. You dont have to say, do, or earn anything;
Look, here's your A+, here's a gold star for you,
just for being you,..."

Of course, its ultimately just as hard to keep an "A",
as it is to earn it, - maybe harder.
Because, in your idealism,
you tell each other that you can take it for granted;
that there's nothing to be done,
but let nature take its course, etc...

And you take it for granted;
you let your guard down,
and, oh, doesnt it feel so good not to be playing the field;
not to be planning your next move...

But, all the while, dynamics are working themselves out unbeknownst to the both of you.
And maybe you become aware of a few things,
and try to discuss them immediately,
so as to 'nip them in the bud'.

But its just the nature of feelings to be wild;
not to be easily encompassed, or harnessed, by words.
And its our own nature not to be in touch with our feelings,
particularly when we are trying to encompass,
and "break" them.

And games must be played...
Because when we approach one another,
before we can express whats in our hearts and minds,
there is always an adjustment to be made;
a feeling-out, and then a teasing-out,
of the other's receptivity.

If we were to flaunt these rules,
and, upon seeing one another,
neglect to preface our affectionate displays with some synthetic show of independence,
we would not give the other a moment to adjust to our presence,
and to rediscover their feelings for us spontaneously, -
but, would catch them in an independent moment,
unreceptive to our romantic enthusiasm,
and feeling quite alienated by it.

I write as if I've learned something,
but I'm no wiser for my experience.
I'm just as determined to win or lose love on my own terms.
I just can't pretend its not a game.
Or that I make things any easier,
by inventing the rules as I go.

Seekingly,

HSC

---

Dear God HSC! you actually wrote that? Thats beautiful and I'm going to save it, I truly empathize with everything you've said and can relate to it also at a small level. But you've got a talent for writing and expressing emotions which I'm pretty envious of!

Anyways about the sensitive thing, Oh god I truly understand that, except I'm a female. I'm very supersensitive, in so that, if I see anyone crying even I would start crying. My parents normally look at me as if I've done something wrong, my siblings make fun of me and call me "crybaby", my friends just keep away from me. They all treat me like I'm commiting a crime by crying and expressing my emotions and it makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong by being sensitive. Sometimes it hurts, you want to be loved and you want to gain approval from your family and friends so much that you try to embody the opposite behaviour of a sensitive person, and turn into a not so sensitive person, remaining superficial, hiding and protecting your feelings, but now I'm 15 and this community has helped me a lot but I can't say I'm on to the same level as you are, but I'm slowly recovering. Really, being sensitive is not bad, its a beautiful quality and it makes you a much more better man in my opinion. I hope to reach the stage you've reached one day and become more open, expressive and accept my behaviour. Well you've inspired me to do so, so atleast I'm on the right track now!

And I too have a Cap ascendant, just my moon is in Pisces.

Anyways keep writing HSC. Its a joy to read what you've written since then atleast I know I'm not the only one and its pretty helpful too. Because you're so open and expressive, it gives me the freedom to be open and expressive. Kudos to you!

MysticMelody: Thats a very interesting take on jealousy. I've felt jealous before, but now very intensely so can't really comment on that issue.

posted July 22, 2006 02:18 PM         

you know that what you are referencing is a Wikapedia quote I pasted, and not my own thoughts, right?
My comments begin after I say: 'I agree with' and then post the bit of Wik that I DO agree with. Then I posted my own thoughts on the subject.

I know.

posted July 22, 2006 02:29 PM         

Thank you so much!
I never tire of hearing praise.
Being sensitive, I really need the encouragement.
I know my writing is good,
but, its not easy to be satisfied,
when I am comparing myself to Tolstoy and writers like that.
Thanks again.

You express yourself very well, btw, and I was thinking that even before I noticed that you are "only" 15. I know, with that Sun and Ascendant, you are probably a lot older than your years, though.

Oh, it upsets me to think of people putting you down, and making you feel like something is wrong with you on account of your sensitive nature. I almost want to say that something is wrong with THEM, but I know that we are all created for different purposes, and we each have gifts suited to those ends. I wish people would understand this, and not expect artists to be statesmen, and laborers to be thinkers, etc. If only we could learn to honor and appreciate each other for what makes us unique. All the colors of the rainbow are beautiful in their own way, and no single individual can be all of them at once.

I was reminded by your words of something I wrote once: "We often reproach a person for the supposed immodesty of their suffering, when it is ourselves who will not suffer so much as the suggestion of it." Does that make sense? Anyway, I know how you feel. Please hang in there, and dont be afraid to stick up for yourself, and tell people that, instead of expecting you to harden your heart, maybe they ought to think about softening their own, once in a while; even if its just for the time it takes not to come down on you and make you feel bad. Remind them of all the things they like about your sensitivity, like when you are loving and comforting to them, and then suggest to them, that, they should take the good with the bad, and, if they cannot accept you when you feel pain, they have no right to accept the love you feel. Tell them I said so, lol.

much love,

Stephen

posted July 22, 2006 02:33 PM         

Sounds like a glorious day.

posted July 22, 2006 02:34 PM         

MysticMelody
I am pushing age 52
My beloved is age 37

HSC
Asteroids right?
Will find the ones Iqhunk did up for me.

posted July 22, 2006 02:54 PM         

I will remember that, Mystic.
And I have the experience to relate, as well.
I have been there many, many times, believe me.
I try to soften in response to that love,
and let it reach my depths, however frightening;
not to harden my heart against it.
But I know, it is difficult.
And it helps to acknowledge that difficulty.

Sometimes, I will allow myself to block it out,
because it is just too much,
but still push myself to express the love that I know is there.
It takes courage.
It takes a willingness to be vulnerable;
to let others judge you as sentimental,
and even to be worried about you.
I am learning to care less and less about what people think,
and to let them worry themselves about me, lol.
I want to be as sentimental as a poet,
and show others that I am not ashamed of my sentiments.
Like I wrote to someone in one of these replies,
I think people often oppose us
because they want the opportunity to be disproven,
and I am happy to oblige.

In any case, things happen in their own time.
As a great friend and teacher of mine once said,
"You cant force a flower to unfold itself,
and you cant storm the gates of the unconscious,
without dissasterous results."
In other words, you are perfect,
and everything is unfolding exactly according to plan
("His", not ours).

posted July 22, 2006 02:55 PM         

Pallas in 5 Scorpio sextiles Karma in 7 Virgo and True Node in 7
Capricorn.
Definite psychic gift indication.

Ceres in 23 Scorp sextiles Chiron in 23 Capricorn. Ceres is nurturing and
Chiron is the wounded healer. So you can increase your healing powers by
nurturing those who are wounded, including self.

Pluto trines Chiron. Indicates tremendous healing, transformation and
regeneration from a wound.

posted July 22, 2006 03:08 PM         

Yup, thanks.

That pluto-chiron trine is AWESOME!!!
I WANT THAT!!!!
WHY NOT MEEEEEEEE!!?!!!?!!!?!!!!!

Pallas is the Warrior Woman,
so, I would think it would figure prominently for you.
I'm not at all surprised to find it
in Scorpio, Conjunct your Sun!

posted July 22, 2006 06:10 PM         

We 1st house Mooners have to stick together.
The world needs us, Mystic.
IT NEEEEEEEEEEDS US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You give me so much, too, no kidding.

Mystic, you are so brave.
The more often you meet me on this vibration,
the sooner you will attract (like a magnet)
a guy just like me, but, like, WAY better,
because he will be the one for you.
You'll see.
I'm serious.
(I'm always serious.)

Thunder is cool.

~S

ps. I dont share the remote. Just kidding.
I pretty much watch whatever the other person wants to watch -
(provided it doesnt totally suck!!).
I give and give and give....
Until you feel so guilty you start begging me to take.
And then I say,
in my Mr. Burns voice,
"E--XCELLENT!"
I am sooooooooooo lovable!
And so are you, you 1st house mooner, you.
But you're nowhere near the incorrigible flirt that I am.
(Is anyone?)

posted July 22, 2006 08:00 PM         

One of my other top 10 favorite guys used to use his Mr. Burns voice to say "EX-CELLENT!" too. LOL An amazing Aries, that one. He was like watching an entire cast on stage. I have a Taurus guitar "god," and Gemini "magician", hmmmm... is there a trend here...? Did I say 10...? Maybe I meant T...W...E...L..V..E!

Actually, I think I am incorporating the best qualities of these men into myself.
I think I might even have one extremely influencial person of each sign or almost every sign that has come into my life. I will have to ponder that one over another glass of wine this evening.

Oh wow, I just had a de ja vu.
My mother was mentioning that she read that those tell you when you are on the right track and I was feeling worried because I hadn't had one in years.

Well!

Yep, I'll be able to attract anything I want with this vibe! *smooch!* You rock!

posted July 22, 2006 08:57 PM         

You are totally on the right track.

We 1st house mooners are especially good at being influenced.
People think that's a bad thing, but that's just rigid ego boundaries talking.
It's only bad when you cant distinguish the right from the wrong influences.

Seek out these people who exhibit the qualities you love,
spend time with them, and, like osmosis,
Vwalla!, suddenly, you are the sh-t!
It works! No kidding! Yee-haw!!

Did I just say "yee-haw"?
I gotta stop hanging out with those ranch hands.