posted October 10, 2007 01:29 PM         

And also i have this from Eckhart Tolle " The Power of Now"
"The word enlightenment conjures up the idea of some superhuman accomplishment, and the ego likes to keep it that way, but it is simply your natural state of felt oneness with Being. It is a state of connectedness with something immeasurable and indestructible, something that, almost paradoxically, is essentially you and yet is much greater than you. It is finding your true nature beyond name and form."

posted October 10, 2007 01:43 PM         

I don't think you said anything wrong. You disagreed with one interpretation of what Mirandee said, you made it clear that the words could be taken that way, if not clarified, and you were content with the clarification provided by her later comments.

Mirandee,

You clarified your comments to say that what is, and ought to remain, simple, is the sense of connection one feels with God, which you termed Spirituality. You made it clear you were not saying that the "details" are unimportant, but, that they have their place. In other words, the cart may be full of all kinds of treasures, but you still shouldn't put it before the horse. Makes sense.

I do think, though, that, even if, in your case, religious study did not lead to an inner knowing, this is not necessarily the case for everyone else. I dont know what they teach in seminary, but I know that there are philosophical, spiritual, and esoteric interpretations to passages in scripture, which are more deeply meaningful than the literal, dogmatic, and exoteric interpretations commonly put forward by the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps if you had learned the former, and not the latter, you might have noticed a corresponding inner growth?

Also, I dont think you should have said that Fayte made a "big drama" out of your comments. She just objected to an interpretation of your comments which you have objected to yourself. There wasn't really any drama until Solane accused Fayte of attacking you and Mannu decided to add fuel to the fire.

Solane,

I think you were too quick to jump on Fayte. Maybe you have a point, that the best thing would be for these two to avoid each other, but if that was your point, you should have made it right away. Instead, you accused Fayte of attacking Mirandee. Clearly, Mirandee didnt take it that way, and the two of them reached an understanding despite your input.

Mannu,

You were mistaken to assume that Fayte was condemning Mirandee, and, most likely, mistaken to condemn her yourself. Her words were not essentially different from many of the words we find in spiritual texts. "Truth is simple." "Don't get lost in the details." "Enjoy the journey." These are the three things I heard her say, and I recognized them as things I often come across in scriptures and sutras. There is truth in what she says, and it is not necessarily indicative of an egotistical, know-it-all attitude. Certainly the implication that age has something to do with it is out of line. Teasing like that is fine for you and your mother at home, but that sort of casualness doesnt work on the internet when you are criticizing someone else's mother.

posted October 10, 2007 01:51 PM         

quote:

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Just curious here:
If she had said
"Becoming a spiritual person is not all that complicated"
would that have changed the way you perceived it?
I'll be perfectly honest with you...when i went back and read Mirandee's first post and then read your response, i got where you were coming from but my mind was saying but that is not what Mirandee was saying. I felt that those were two different things, (apples & oranges, so to speak).

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quote:

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Religion or Spirituality is really not all that complicated.

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posted October 10, 2007 01:54 PM         

quote:

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We humans like to make it seem more complicated than it actually is because it makes us look smart.

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And once again why I questioned it:

My previous post which should have cleared things up:
OK in an honest attempt here to clear things up........
Mirandee said:

quote:

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Religion or Spirituality is really not all that complicated.

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quote:

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The study of it is very complex however. The etymologies, the histories etcetera.

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quote:

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We humans like to make it seem more complicated than it actually is because it makes us look smart.

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quote:

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That can be taken as an insult to all scholars and translators and those who wish to learn of and study all religions and the histories and archaeologies of them.
Would you say the same of a Physicist or Astronomer, or even an Astrologer?
Folks do love to delve deeper and learn the nuances and details of the subjects which interests them.
They are NOT doing it to:

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quote:

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We humans like to make it seem more complicated than it actually is because it makes us look smart.

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quote:

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There would be no translations of Religious texts, scrolls, codexes, etcetera, into English if folks were doing those translations to simply;

"make them look smart"

Just because there are folks who want to delve deep into any subject does not make them a bunch of show offs trying to look smart. Folks possessing intelligence and curiosity simply "love to learn and study". Showing off is not what is on their minds.

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posted October 10, 2007 01:55 PM         

quote:

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Incidently, while I am at it. What I said regarding humans making things more complex regarding spirituality:

1. When I stated " we humans" I would think that anyone could assume that I am including myself along with the rest of humanity since I am a human being. Or a human just being as the case may be.

2. When I was studying theology at the seminary I told my pastor one day, " Spirituality is simple. The Church makes it all so complex."

He laughed and said, " Of course we do. That's because we like to make ourselves appear smart." Then he tapped on his chest by his heart and said, " but really it is all about what is in here."

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quote:

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We humans like to make it seem more complicated than it actually is because it makes us look smart.

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posted October 10, 2007 01:58 PM         

Why are you repeating yourself?

posted October 10, 2007 02:06 PM         

Your comments made me think of these verses by Omar:

28
Why, all the saints and sages who discuss'd
Of the two worlds so learnedly, are thrust
Like foolish prophets forth; their words to scorn
Are scatter'd, and their mouths are stopt with dust.

29
For let philosopher and doctor preach,
Of what they will and what they will not - each
Is but one link in an eternal chain,
That none can slip, nor break, nor over-reach.

31
Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and saint, and heard great argument
About it and about; but evermore
Came out by the same door as in I went.

32
With them the seed of wisdom did I sow
And with my own hand, labour'd it to grow:
And this was all the harvest that I reap'd -
'I came like water, and like wind I go.'

35
Up from Earth's center through the seventh gate
I rose, and on the throne of Saturn sate,
And many knots unravel'd by the road;
But not the knot of human death and fate.

43
Ah, fill the cup: - what boots it to repeat
How time is slipping underneath our feet:
Unborn tomorrow, and dead yesterday,
Why fret about them if today be sweet!

48
While the rose blows along the river brink,
With old Khayyam the ruby vintage drink:
And when the angel with his darker draught
Draws up to thee - take that, and do not shrink!

59
How long, how long in infinite pursuit
Of This and That endeavor and dispute?
Better be merry with the fruitful grape
Than sadden after none, or bitter, fruit.

60
You know, my friends, with what a brave carouse
I made a second marriage in my house;
Divorced old barren reason from my bed,
And took the daughter of the vine to spouse.

61
For 'is' and 'is-not' though with rule and line,
And 'up-and-down' by logic I define,
Of all that one should care to fathom, I
Was never deep in anything but - Wine.

64
The grape that can with logic absolute
The two-and-seventy jarring sects confute:
The subtle alchemist that in a trice
Life's leaden metal into gold transmute.

66
But leave the wise to wrangle, and with me
The quarrel of the universe let be:
And in some quiet corner of the hubbub coucht,
Make game of that which makes as much of thee.

posted October 10, 2007 02:11 PM         

So many times we cut the head and tail off the fish and still expect it to swim.

Let us use this piccadillo as a life lesson in Clarity. Prevent the toehold on supposition, presumption or inference by being clear in word and intention. I admit, simple but not easy. (yes, it means me too~)

Thank you

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted October 10, 2007 02:15 PM         

Thirteen asked a quaestion.

I defended you.

Dean seemed to be defending you.

Mannu defended you and then some.

Only Solane has accused you of attacking anyone,
and she hasnt said anything since last night.

BR and AG only said they understood where Mirandee was coming from.

So who is attacking you?

posted October 10, 2007 02:35 PM         

Perhaps the word "religion" in that sentance caused part of the problem.

In a literal sense, Religion could very well imply study of and translation of.
Fayte i do see more of your point now.

Whereas Spirituality could be construed as more of a personal journey.

posted October 10, 2007 02:49 PM         

quote:

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Fayte,

I don't think you said anything wrong. You disagreed with one interpretation of what Mirandee said, you made it clear that the words could be taken that way, if not clarified, and you were content with the clarification provided by her later comments.

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quote:

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Solane,

I think you were too quick to jump on Fayte. Maybe you have a point, that the best thing would be for these two to avoid each other, but if that was your point, you should have made it right away. Instead, you accused Fayte of attacking Mirandee. Clearly, Mirandee didnt take it that way, and the two of them reached an understanding despite your input.

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Then you ask:

quote:

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Who is attacking you, Fayte?

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Mirandee said:

quote:

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Fayte and some others here lump all Christians into a neat little box. We are all like Jerry Farlwell and Pat Robinson or their great aunt susie or some other relative they know or some other Christian weirdo they have encountered. That does not support an open mind. What it does support is religious bigotry and intolerance towards anyone who thinks or believes differently than they do.

All religions have their fanatics. Even astrology has it's fanatics. The world has it's fanatics. Lumping people and labeling people is not supported by any form of spirituality.

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And most I have been friends with for between 20 and 39 years to date!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The rest are newer friends of between 7 and 19 years duration to date.
And 5 are Christian ministers!

To continue......

Then Dulce Luna jumps into the fray of which she knows nothing about.....

quote:

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Oh, I think its pretty F-ing ridiculous that some people turn around and do the very thing they themselves complain about being done against them. And I'm speaking of 'being persecuted' mainly but I'm not even talking solely of this thread...I've read the 'Religion' thread and the 'Rethinking Bible' one too: talk about "tolerance". . I guess people really should've taken their own advice: if you found the O.P's opinion offensive then just turn the other cheek and walk away instead of stirring up trouble on her thread . Simple, end of rant.

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posted October 10, 2007 03:37 PM         

quote:

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I think for you to say that you would have posted that EXACT same reply to anyone is simply untrue. All the bold text and eye rolling seems to portray anger that really isn't in proportion to the situation.

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So just because you would think or feel or do something for a certain reason...does not mean I would do the same or feel the same.

posted October 10, 2007 04:02 PM         

Dean - I have to give it to you. Perhaps its that, when it comes to objectivity, Air signs are the best. Chuckles. You were also politically very right. "Its a gift from God". Its a dialogue from Heroes on NBC.
Do you get to see them in Australia?

Fayte - Love you baby - Nothing escapes your eyes. Its a gift too.

Thirteen - I agree, that we need to make I statements. Moment we use words like "We" its a problem. Exception people are the Masters/Gurus. They are allowed to use the word "We" and their "I" statements also never hurt others.

Ok I accept that when posts are being written, it belongs to the person typing it. But nevertheless the unconscious mind digests everything it receives. So we have to be careful in our words.

Should we create another post titled "Lindaland Communication Etiquette" and list these points? What do you say?

posted October 10, 2007 04:32 PM         

HSC - you missed my intent. Please reread my opening post to Solane Star. It was meant for her and not you or even Fayte or Mirandee. In that I wanted to tell her this - I didn't bother to read rest of the post. Perhaps it didn't come in a way it should and I should have given more explanation. Its one of those situations where you enter a restroom and the smell of it makes you return. You won't even check the Pod.
Or perhaps u go to a restroom in Italy and find nothing but just a hole in the ground. You turn around and get out of there in seconds.

I objected to Solane asking Fayte to refrain from posting. Its nice to be peacemakers , but unwise words must be disciplined.

All that this really boils down to is communication gap.

You are not me, so you will never understand. Are you trying to intervene and bring peace? Well thanks again.

I don't think commentary is required for your other points. It simply spoils. So here goes. For people who don't believe the bible skip the next words please:

quote:

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Mt 12:46 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48 But He answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold, My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

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posted October 10, 2007 04:38 PM         

quote:

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I changed my post because I figured you would have the reaction you just did.

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quote:

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What I see is that you're lashing out at people, then acting like Jesus on the cross when they lash back. Sorry if I don't believe what you're saying Fayte.

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posted October 10, 2007 04:41 PM         

quote:

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HSC - your first post was very enlightening.
You must be in a different mindset then.
In your second you were trying to be more objective. But since you were not in touch with the unconscious, i am afraid you lost subtle details. I hope you are not offended reading my comments.

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Those are big words.
Care to back them up by citing examples
and discussing what exactly you think I got wrong,
or do you just want to leave it unclear?

Fayte,

I missed that post by Mirandee.
Yes, I think she was wrong.

No comment on Dulce.

Lia didnt single you out,
and its hard to know what she thinks of you.

I didnt read into BR's post,
and would not have,
but he has since explained himself.

I do see you making use of bold letters
and getting worked up (or appearing to)
over posts that are not personal,
so, I would disagree with BR.
I dont think that is enough reason to conclude it was personal,
although it certainly helps to explain why people often
misinterpret and make assumptions about your posts.
Perhaps it can't be helped.

posted October 10, 2007 04:41 PM         

quote:

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Should we create another post titled "Lindaland Communication Etiquette" and list these points? What do you say?

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hmmm How about we start with ... Let's all act like adults.

anyone? anyone?

posted October 10, 2007 04:50 PM         

quote:

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you missed my intent.
Please reread my opening post to Solane Star.

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I said nothing about your intent, only about your thoughts and actions. I read that opening post. I can barely interpret what you are trying to say most of the time, Mannu. What I could make sense of in that post is what you said about Mirandee.

quote:

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I didn't bother to read rest of the post.

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What post?

quote:

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Perhaps it didn't come in a way it should and I should have given more explanation.

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When you say that it didnt come out right, and you should have explained, it sounds like you are saying I am right. A far cry from telling me I am no longer in touch with the unconscious. Sounds like I hit the nail on the head after all.