posted October 30, 2013 03:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by I'm so cappy:

How can I check these declinations?

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They show up on astro.com.

When you view your chart wheel, look for a link on the top left hand corner above the wheel which says "Additional tables PDF"

posted October 30, 2013 03:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:

"The exact mirroring is only half of the story though.
They will also have (and need to) complimentary mirroring. They may be of the same energy, however one of them exhibits the nergy in a more Yang, the other in a more Yin-way.

I suppose conjunctions between the same objects are more indicative of soulmates, if it is all there is.

Twinflames seem to actually have both, the mirroring on the same level, but there will also be very significant complementing aspects, there is a reason why the ancients liked the Sun-Moon-conjunction so much.
(not saying that tf will all have a Sun-Moon-conjunction, or that if you have one, you are TF, it is only ONE aspect after all - and it oes not even tell you if you will get along, just that something inside will start to vibrate with the frequency, maybe you do not even like it. ).

But back to the conjunction of Sun and MOon as an example. There is the same frequency, the same energy as expressed in the conjunction, but involving complementary planets.

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Oh yes, of course ~ the yin/yang complimenting, thats the the funnest of all look for hehe.
I've noticed this sort of thing carries on into the other charts as well (dracos, harmonic charts, etc).
Just goes to show how deep the connection is and how intertwined they are on multiple levels..

posted October 30, 2013 03:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by I'm so cappy:
Hecate bless you for leading me to the light

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posted October 30, 2013 04:45 PM            

Lol yes! There it is yet again!

"So far it seems that both Liliths seem to be of value."

posted October 31, 2013 01:18 AM            

Natal aspects:
Her True Lilith antiscia/parallel Moon 0°
His True Lilith antiscia/parallel Sun 0°

Her True Lilith trine Sun 0°
His Priapus parallel/quindecile Moon 1°

Her True Lilith trine Mercury 1°
His True Lilith trine Mercury 2°

Her True Lilith parallel SN
His True Lilith conjunct/parallel SN 0°

Her Mean Lilith antiscia Juno 1°
His True Lilith antiscia Juno 0°
His True Lilith contraparallel Jupiter

Her True Lilith contra-parallel Vertex
His Priapus contra-parallel Vertex

Her Priapus quindecile Anti-Vertex 2°
His True Lilith square Vertex 1°

Synastry aspects:
Her Mean Lilith conjunct his MC 3°
His Mean Lilith trine her MC 0°

Her True Lilith trine his Mercury 0°
His True Lilith conjunct her Mercury 4°

Her Mean Lilith quincunx/parallel his Mars 0°
Her Priapus parallel his Venus
His Priapus conjunct her Mars 3°
His True Lilith quindecile her Mars 2°
His Mean Lilith antiscia/contra-parallel her Venus 0°

Her Mean Lilith conjunct/parallel his Saturn 3°
His Mean Lilith opposite her Saturn 2°

Her Priapus contra-parallel his Uranus
His Priapus sextile her Uranus 2°

posted October 31, 2013 05:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lavender CrystalSwan:

I've noticed this sort of thing carries on into the other charts as well (dracos, harmonic charts, etc).
Just goes to show how deep the connection is and how intertwined they are on multiple levels..

You worded so much better than I could have, its official now, you should definitely write a book in the future!

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posted October 31, 2013 05:42 AM            

It seems that true perigree is always opposite the true apogee - Lilith-, within a degree or so.

So we are actually mixing two different calculations here, the mean or true Apogee with the natural Perigree.

How can it be that it delivers such astuonding results nevertheless?

posted October 31, 2013 05:55 AM            

"One important distinction is that the apogee/perigee axis is very different from the ascending/descending nodes axis, because at the nodes there is an intersection of 2 planes, like a meeting, or a door from one level to another, or a confluence of 2 worlds (the lunar and the earth realms).

But the apogee or the empty focus of the lunar orbit is a purely lunar realm. It is not in contact with anything. It is only the Moon per se, in isolation from everything else... therefore they are different concepts or orbital symbols. The apogee/empty focus (="kenofocus") is really like a womb, a receptacle, an accumulator, a point of emptiness...

posted October 31, 2013 06:05 AM            

"Natal aspects:
Her True Lilith antiscia/parallel Moon 0°
His True Lilith antiscia/parallel Sun 0° "

Synastry aspects:
Her Mean Lilith quincunx/parallel his Mars 0°
Her Priapus parallel his Venus
His Priapus conjunct her Mars 3°
His True Lilith quindecile her Mars 2°
His Mean Lilith antiscia/contra-parallel her Venus 0°

This one is very intriguing, and you wouldn`t have seen it, without the inclusion of antiscia/ declinations

Her Priapus square his Pluto 2°
Her True Lilith contra-parallel his Pluto
His True Lilith opposite her Pluto 2°
- I feel there is a very interesting resonance between the Black Moon and Pluto in general, so if it comes up in the synastry.
The tf couple I posted had it in composite Lilith/Priapus-mp I think.

posted October 31, 2013 06:13 AM            

(it seems there is no mean perigee to the mean apogee for some reason, at least not listed in the program)

In the case of the natural apogee and perigree, they are NOT in opposition as a given.

The true ones are always in opposition, apparently, though not down to the minute, but just within a degree or so.

But no matter the deliciously ncie results, I feel uncomfortable mixing two so very different methods of calculation, it feels wobbly at best.
So back to the drawing board I suppose. *sighs*

EDIT:
Well, if it comes to me personally, I have always preferred the osc or true ones anyway; something that the author of that mentioned article seems to do, too.

However, it is also true that in this case only very specific aspects (natal or synastrically) will result in the composite alignments.

posted October 31, 2013 06:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Probably, it would make more sense to compare
- natural(Interpolated) to natural
- true to true

(it seems there is no mean perigee to the mean apogee for some reason, at least not listed in the program)

In the case of the natural apogee and perigree, they are NOT in opposition as a given.

The true ones are always in opposition, apparently, though not down to the minute, but just within a degree or so.

But no matter the deliciously ncie results, I feel uncomfortable mixing two so very different methods of calculation, it feels wobbly at best.
So back to the drawing board I suppose. *sighs*

EDIT:
Well, if it comes to me personally, I have always preferred the osc or true ones anyway; something that the author of that mentioned article seems to do, too.

However, it is also true that in this case only very specific aspects (natal or synastrically) will result in the composite alignments.

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Yeah, I guess you're right...
Even though the results are quite astonishing, it wouldn't be right to mix up the objects like this.

I agree with you on using the true ones, I've been using them from the start because its aspects made the most sense to me.

posted October 31, 2013 06:45 AM            

"2.2.3 The Osculating Apogee (so-called 'True Lilith' or 'True Dark Moon')

The relation of this point to the mean apogee is not exactly of the same kind as the relation between the true node and the mean node. Like the 'true' node, it can be considered as an osculating orbital element of the lunar motion. But there is an important difference: The apogee contains the concept of the ellipse, whereas the node can be defined without thinking of an ellipse. As has been shown above, the node can be derived from orbital planes or great circles, which is not possible with the apogee. Now ellipses are good as a description of planetary orbits, but not of the lunar orbit which is strongly perturbed by the gravity of the sun. The lunar orbit is far away from being an ellipse!

However, the osculating apogee is 'true' twice a month: when it is in exact conjunction with the moon, the moon is most distant from the earth; and when it is in exact opposition to the moon, the moon is closest to the earth. In between those two points, the value of the osculating apogee is pure imagination. The amplitude of the oscillation of the osculating apogee around the mean apogee is +/- 25 degrees, while the true apogee's deviation from the mean one never exceeds 5 degrees."

"2.2.4 The Interpolated or Natural Apogee and Perigee (Lilith and Priapus)
As has been said above, the osculating lunar apogee (so-called "true Lilith") is a mathematical construct which assumes that the motion of the moon is a two-body problem. This solution is obviously too simplistic. Although Kepler ellipses are a good means to describe planetary orbits, they fail with the orbit of the moon, which is strongly perturbed by the gravitational pull of the sun. This solar perturbation results in gigantic monthly oscillations in the ephemeris of the osculating apsides (the amplitude is 30 degrees). These oscillations have to be considered an artifact of the insufficient model, they do not really show a motion of the apsides.

A more sensible solution seems to be an interpolation between the real passages of the moon through its apogees and perigees. It turns out that the motions of the lunar perigee and apogee form curves of different quality and the two points are usually not in opposition to each other. They are more or less opposite points only at times when the sun is in conjunction with one of them or squares them. The amplitude of their oscillation about the mean position is 5 degrees for the apogee and 25 degrees for the perigee.

Conventional interpolation algorithms do not work well in the case of the lunar apsides. The supporting points are too far away from each other in order to provide a good interpolation, the error estimation is greater than 1 degree for the perigee. Therefore, Dieter chose a different solution. He derived an "interpolation method" from the analytical lunar theory which we have in the form of moshier's lunar ephemeris. This "interpolation method" has not only the advantage that it probably makes more sense, but also that the curve and its derivation are both continuous.

Literature (in German):

- Dieter Koch, "Was ist Lilith und welche Ephemeride ist richtig", in: Meridian 1/95

- Dieter Koch and Bernhard Rindgen, "Lilith und Priapus", Frankfurt/Main, 2000. (http://www.vdhb.de/Lilith_und_Priapus/lilith_und_priapus.html)

- Juan Revilla, "The Astronomical Variants of the Lunar Apogee - Black Moon", http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/barycentric.html

There's more to those writings, I just pasted some bits.

posted October 31, 2013 06:54 AM            

His Lilith/Priapus-mp falls onto 10°02 Sagittarius then,

conjunct my Neptune on 9.56 Sag
conjunct my NN on 10.09 Sag (how is that for tight? lol)

conjunct our meeting`s ASC on 10.21 Sagittarius

and opposite composite Jupiter on 10.41 Gem in 5th house

it is also conjunct composite natural Lilith by 1°25,

while my own natural Lilith/Priapus-mp is conjunct composite natural Priapus by 1°24

While my natural Lilith is just a few minutes from my true Lilith, his differs about 21 degrees.

posted October 31, 2013 06:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lavender CrystalSwan:
I found some writings on True Lilith and the Natural Apogee/Perigee on the Astrodiest site.
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm

"2.2.3 The Osculating Apogee (so-called 'True Lilith' or 'True Dark Moon')

The relation of this point to the mean apogee is not exactly of the same kind as the relation between the true node and the mean node. Like the 'true' node, it can be considered as an osculating orbital element of the lunar motion. But there is an important difference: The apogee contains the concept of the ellipse, whereas the node can be defined without thinking of an ellipse. As has been shown above, the node can be derived from orbital planes or great circles, which is not possible with the apogee. Now ellipses are good as a description of planetary orbits, but not of the lunar orbit which is strongly perturbed by the gravity of the sun. The lunar orbit is far away from being an ellipse!

However, the osculating apogee is 'true' twice a month: when it is in exact conjunction with the moon, the moon is most distant from the earth; and when it is in exact opposition to the moon, the moon is closest to the earth. In between those two points, the value of the osculating apogee is pure imagination. The amplitude of the oscillation of the osculating apogee around the mean apogee is +/- 25 degrees, while the true apogee's deviation from the mean one never exceeds 5 degrees."

"2.2.4 The Interpolated or Natural Apogee and Perigee (Lilith and Priapus)
As has been said above, the osculating lunar apogee (so-called "true Lilith") is a mathematical construct which assumes that the motion of the moon is a two-body problem. This solution is obviously too simplistic. Although Kepler ellipses are a good means to describe planetary orbits, they fail with the orbit of the moon, which is strongly perturbed by the gravitational pull of the sun. This solar perturbation results in gigantic monthly oscillations in the ephemeris of the osculating apsides (the amplitude is 30 degrees). These oscillations have to be considered an artifact of the insufficient model, they do not really show a motion of the apsides.

A more sensible solution seems to be an interpolation between the real passages of the moon through its apogees and perigees. It turns out that the motions of the lunar perigee and apogee form curves of different quality and the two points are usually not in opposition to each other. They are more or less opposite points only at times when the sun is in conjunction with one of them or squares them. The amplitude of their oscillation about the mean position is 5 degrees for the apogee and 25 degrees for the perigee.

Conventional interpolation algorithms do not work well in the case of the lunar apsides. The supporting points are too far away from each other in order to provide a good interpolation, the error estimation is greater than 1 degree for the perigee. Therefore, Dieter chose a different solution. He derived an "interpolation method" from the analytical lunar theory which we have in the form of moshier's lunar ephemeris. This "interpolation method" has not only the advantage that it probably makes more sense, but also that the curve and its derivation are both continuous.

Literature (in German):

- Dieter Koch, "Was ist Lilith und welche Ephemeride ist richtig", in: Meridian 1/95

- Dieter Koch and Bernhard Rindgen, "Lilith und Priapus", Frankfurt/Main, 2000. (http://www.vdhb.de/Lilith_und_Priapus/lilith_und_priapus.html)

- Juan Revilla, "The Astronomical Variants of the Lunar Apogee - Black Moon", http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/barycentric.html

There's more to those writings, I just pasted some bits.

Ahh my brain hurts from reading all that lol

---

Yes, I just read that.

If your brain hurts try reading and understanding the one rom Revilla.
I really have to concentrate hard, and event hen I am sure I am missing some details. lol

What I understand though, is that mean Lilith seems to be totally hypothetical, or a smootheneed idealized path like the mean node, while true Lilith is much more erratic (yeah we can see that, she seems to sigsaw through the zodiac, but can it be really a coincidence that she needs pretty much exactly 9 months?)

As for the interpolated/ natural degree, I am totally stumped. I even HAVE the book by Koch and Rindgen. lol

posted October 31, 2013 07:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lavender CrystalSwan:
So it would then be right to use True Lilith or Dark Moon Lilith in comparison with Priapus yes?

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No, actually it wouldn`t.

True Lilith is true/ osc.
Priapus from astro com is the natural / interpolated one.

You would have to compare h21 - h22 (the interpolated degrees).

Or

osc/ true Lilith to its oppospite point, as I said it is nto exactly opposite but seems to vary just for some minutes.

In my case

posted October 31, 2013 07:11 AM            

Oh wow lol.
Those are some very intriguing aspects!
But too bad this Lilith is hypothetical

Though its still interesting how strongly it figures in our synastries...

posted October 31, 2013 07:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lavender CrystalSwan:
"
Those are some very intriguing aspects!
But too bad this Lilith is hypothetical

Though its still interesting how strongly it figures in our synastries...

What a waste of aspects lol

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Actually it is not hypothetical. OR it is just as hypothetical as the angles and other calculated points and the nodal axis are.

posted October 31, 2013 07:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
No, actually it wouldn`t.

True Lilith is true/ osc.
Priapus from astro com is the natural / interpolated one.

You would have to compare h21 - h22 (the interpolated degrees).

Or

osc/ true Lilith to its oppospite point, as I said it is nto exactly opposite but seems to vary just for some minutes.

In my case

True Apogee (Lilith): 28.37 Aqua
True Perigee (Priapus): 28.31 Leo

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Ah ok, I think I get it now.
So many Liliths lol, it can get confusing!

posted October 31, 2013 07:22 AM            

That is, the real orbit of an object --and in particular the orbit of the Moon-- is changing all the time due to the attraction of many or of several perturbing gravitational forces, so the moment of osculation is only an instant, it represents an "instantaneous orbit" that "kisses" the real orbit and then diverges as the real orbit is accelerated. It is like opening a momentary window to observe the orbit at that instant, knowing that it will change its appearance as soon as we close the window again, or like taking a picture that "freezes" the instantaneous reality of the orbit.

By "real orbit" is meant the orbital plane as it looks through time; it can be conceived as a collection or accumulation of these instants, of an endless series of instants describing its changes or oscillations, the slightly different shapes that the orbit assumes through time. Of course the word "real" used here is very relative, because it does not imply that the osculating orbit is not real.

Some people prefer to think arbitrarily that an osculating orbit --a perfectly defined keplerian ellipse--, does not correspond to "reality", forgetting the fact that the osculating ellipse is the accurate representation of an object's trajectory in space at a given moment. The Keplerian ellipse, i.e., the osculating orbit, describes the motion of the object at that moment of time.

This is exactly what we do in Astrology when we make a chart: we "freeze" artificially the movement of the celestial sphere and work only with that instantaneous picture.

The orbit through time constitutes a series of oscillations around an average or "mean" slowly evolving keplerian ellipse. This would be the equivalent of the Mean Black Moon or barycentric mean lunar apogee. The osculating apogee represents the actual trajectory of the Moon as it actually is at a given instant. We can think of it as a ghost image that the Moon carries with it all the time. This ghost image represents a sort of ideal, an "ideal future" when the Moon is (or will be) at apogee, but it keeps changing or evolving as the Moon travels through space.

We can also think of the perigee, the north and south nodes, and the empty second focus of the orbit in the same way: they all represent idealized focal points or "directions" that are a result of the "psychic projections" of the Moon, they are "Moon ghosts" that the Moon always carries with it, that are part of the "lunar structure" of every individual. The Moon represents the present moment, the nodes, apsides, and empty focus represent the past and "look forward" psychic projections that give shape and structure to the lunar dynamics of a person's life. They are like the rooms, passages and corridors of a house (the different parts of the orbit) that become projections of the person who inhabits it (the Moon).

Some people think that an osculating orbit is something too artificial or unreal, and call the use of the osculating lunar apogee or Black Moon "nonsense", "close to nonsense", "makes no sense at all", etc. The main reasons usually given for this are 1-) the large difference (of up to 30 degrees) between the mean and osculating value of the lunar apogee, 2-) the fact that this osculating value "can travel to places where the Moon will never go" (see how amazingly significant this is in psychological and psychic terms!), and 3-) its erratic changes of direction and velocity, which for some it means it cannot be really called "a motion" at all.

But I have always insisted that it is precisely all that what makes the symbolism of the osculating apogee / Black Moon so powerful. It doesn't matter at all that its motion is erratic: it doesn't have to move like a planet because it is not a planet!... this brings it symbolically closer to all the neglected psychical projections of the Moon, both positively and negatively. The osculating Black Moon, representing the constantly changing shape of the lunar orbit is a very good fit to the organic, instinctual nature of Black Moon symbolism."
http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/barycentric.html

posted October 31, 2013 07:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Actually it is not hypothetical. OR it is just as hypothetical as the angles and other calculated points and the nodal axis are.

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Oh so you used the h21 Lilith in your calculations, sorry I misunderstood.

LOL I was so lost for a bit there, earlier.

posted October 31, 2013 07:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lavender CrystalSwan:
Oh so you used the h21 Lilith in your calculations, sorry I misunderstood.

LOL I was so lost for a bit there, earlier.

Then in that case your aspects most certainly are of value!!

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Yes, I pretty much threw out mean Lilith for now and used h21, as this is the LIlith that really correlates to Priapus (h22). They are a pairing, even though their value still has to be researched imo.

The true Lilith (h13), has no counterpart on astro.com, but her counterpart Priapus, is always directly opposite, as they form an axis like the nodes.

For my personal case that means, since we have an exact true Lilith-opposition, there is of course each Lilith in exact conjunction with Priapus, and the natal Lilith/Priapus-mps aligning with the composite axis of Lilith and Priapus as well. That is a given with any two Liliths that are opposite each other synastrically.

posted October 31, 2013 07:48 AM            

Lilith in my chart is now exactly on my South Node and his Lilith is exactly trine his North Node.

But this is what fascinated me the most:

My Lilith/Priapus MP conjunct composite Lilith 1°
His Lilith/Priapus MP opposite composite Priapus 1°

Though we did have that happening with the oscillating Lilith too, I'm just amazed to find the same thing popping up with my natural Lilith.
There's a 7 degree difference between my Osc. Lilith and Natural Lilith.