posted April 06, 2014 12:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
^^

I wasn't being combative. You said you found civil unions acceptable and I said so did I under certain circumstances, but pointing out what you described is not true of the USA (and therefore unacceptable here for that reason). That's not attacking you, that's stating fact. As for sharing how I felt about the word marriage I was sharing as I saw you sharing. Were you attacking anyone when you stated your opinion? I assume the answer is no, and that's just as true of me. ('Course if you WERE being combative then no, I wasn't being the same.)

But as for my sharing, perhaps my own background as an author and my Scorpio Jupiter is involved here. I like to understand people and I assume they want to understand as well. I often read long posts when they describe what it's like to be them (and sometimes ask questions for clarification or even more detail). I'm currently helping an author whose story is getting to runaways living on the street to make it as accurate as possible. Back when I did a fic where the cops and legal system were very important I interviewed a few people and did research and greatly appreciated an ex-cop reading my draft giving his input, and I sincerely tried to reflect a cop's reality and how many cops (as individuals) could see the world, from the truly helpful to the bullies, what frustrates them and what gives them job satisfaction, etc. I suppose you have different placements so you can't see what I posted as anything other than an attack.

Though I must say I don't understand why some here are willing to judge a lot of people for how they were born who are so sensitive to any criticism at all that has no legal bearing on their lives. If it hurts you so much then why can't you see how your criticism that promotes (sometimes successfully) depriving people of legal rights is many times worse? Seriously, I don't get it.

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Have to speak, "born with"

Let the hamster spin the mental wheel, behavior is engaged in, or it is not, this sort of "my genes made me do it" is garbage, the thinnest of sheets over a pile of lies and self justifications.

We have choices to make in this world, we both know it, let us drop the pretext of "my genes made me do it!"

That is a lie, and can stand differing opinions, cannot stand fig leafs

Respect your honesty on most things PJ, in this case, you are being untrue.

posted April 06, 2014 01:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
Have to speak, "born with"

Let the hamster spin the mental wheel, behavior is engaged in, or it is not, this sort of "my genes made me do it" is garbage, the thinnest of sheets over a pile of lies and self justifications.

We have choices to make in this world, we both know it, let us drop the pretext of "my genes made me do it!"

That is a lie, and can stand differing opinions, cannot stand fig leafs

Respect your honesty on most things PJ, in this case, you are being untrue.

Not out of a weakness of character I'd guess, more b/c you found something that comforts, but is against your nature, thus you compromise your usually brilliant honesty and observations

---

I can only gather half of what you're saying.

Please try not to insult people here.

posted April 06, 2014 01:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
Have to speak, "born with"

Let the hamster spin the mental wheel, behavior is engaged in, or it is not, this sort of "my genes made me do it" is garbage, the thinnest of sheets over a pile of lies and self justifications.

We have choices to make in this world, we both know it, let us drop the pretext of "my genes made me do it!"

That is a lie, and can stand differing opinions, cannot stand fig leafs

Respect your honesty on most things PJ, in this case, you are being untrue.

Not out of a weakness of character I'd guess, more b/c you found something that comforts, but is against your nature, thus you compromise your usually brilliant honesty and observations

---

posted April 06, 2014 01:30 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Padre35:
[b] Have to speak, "born with"

Let the hamster spin the mental wheel, behavior is engaged in, or it is not, this sort of "my genes made me do it" is garbage, the thinnest of sheets over a pile of lies and self justifications.

We have choices to make in this world, we both know it, let us drop the pretext of "my genes made me do it!"

That is a lie, and can stand differing opinions, cannot stand fig leafs

Respect your honesty on most things PJ, in this case, you are being untrue.

Not out of a weakness of character I'd guess, more b/c you found something that comforts, but is against your nature, thus you compromise your usually brilliant honesty and observations

---

AG, each day, every day, know them, know the community, know how things work in that community.

Dear friends of mine actually, never so disrespectful that I'd delve into the why

Tho, have been told unbidden, the why

Put it this way AG get offered 50 bucks to toss off in front of the dude..then maybe understanding dawns

Then had a gay couple, happily shoot me some cash to help my college career move forward and were dead silent when my fiance' a the time would uhm..show up to "see" me when speaking a word of it would have had me out on the street.

posted April 06, 2014 01:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Violets:

I can only gather half of what you're saying.

Please try not to insult people here.

Keep it cordial, please (but not so cryptic that it's indecipherable).
Thanks.

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As was meant to be..love PJ lots, the sort of "the genes made me do it!" argument..is nonsense..called PJ out on it..gently

posted April 06, 2014 01:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
AG, each day, every day, know them, know the community, know how things work in that community.

Dear friends of mine actually, never so disrespectful that I'd delve into the why

Tho, have been told unbidden, the why

Put it this way AG get offered 50 bucks to toss off in front of the dude..then maybe understanding dawns

Then had a gay couple, happily shoot me some cash to help my college career move forward and were dead silent when my fiance' a the time would uhm..show up to "see" me when speaking a word of it would have had me out on the street.

INOW, seen both sides of that one

---

posted April 06, 2014 01:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
Have to speak, "born with"

Let the hamster spin the mental wheel, behavior is engaged in, or it is not, this sort of "my genes made me do it" is garbage, the thinnest of sheets over a pile of lies and self justifications.

We have choices to make in this world, we both know it, let us drop the pretext of "my genes made me do it!"

That is a lie, and can stand differing opinions, cannot stand fig leafs

Respect your honesty on most things PJ, in this case, you are being untrue.

Not out of a weakness of character I'd guess, more b/c you found something that comforts, but is against your nature, thus you compromise your usually brilliant honesty and observations

---

posted April 06, 2014 01:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Violets:
I personally don't believe that you've been combative in any way throughout this thread, PJ. Although I confess that I haven't read every single post. Most of it was just too much for me, honestly.

You're not insulting anyone, in their face, or being outright antagonistic in any way as far as I'm concerned.

This is obviously a personal topic for you, and I think that you've handled yourself very well. I'm sorry that people are so unaware of how hurtful and damaging their words and even their thoughts can be in the greater scheme of things.

Not that I'm assuming that you're hurt by their words, but I personally would be. It's quite thoughtless, imo.

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posted April 06, 2014 01:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Just so there's no mistake or misunderstanding, I'm pointing out that I'm ignoring absurd comments like this. Now maybe if you can say why I'm wrong on that without just saying I'm a liar and know it then maybe we can continue it.

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posted April 06, 2014 02:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Padre35:
[b] AG, each day, every day, know them, know the community, know how things work in that community.

Dear friends of mine actually, never so disrespectful that I'd delve into the why

Tho, have been told unbidden, the why

Put it this way AG get offered 50 bucks to toss off in front of the dude..then maybe understanding dawns

Then had a gay couple, happily shoot me some cash to help my college career move forward and were dead silent when my fiance' a the time would uhm..show up to "see" me when speaking a word of it would have had me out on the street.

INOW, seen both sides of that one

---

nah, seen both sides of this AG, this idea that being non Trad means=evil

posted April 06, 2014 02:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by StarlightSmileSupreme:
With some people it's genetic but others I think experiment and can go either way known as bisexuals.

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That's another orientation, though that one gets complicated by so many social factors. I'm sad to say that bisexuals tend to get as much hostility from gays as much as straights. On top of that bisexuals don't like to hear how "gays don't have a choice, but you do, we expect you to be straight." Love (let alone attraction, crushes, etc) isn't logical or where you get a pop up asking you if you wish to continue (I wish it were).

posted April 06, 2014 02:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
B/c u have no counter argument or ideas or b/c it is inconvenient?

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posted April 06, 2014 02:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
That's another orientation, though that one gets complicated by so many social factors. I'm sad to say that bisexuals tend to get as much hostility from gays as much as straights. On top of that bisexuals don't like to hear how "gays don't have a choice, but you do, we expect you to be straight." Love (let alone attraction, crushes, etc) isn't logical or where you get a pop up asking you if you wish to continue (I wish it were).

But I did know a straight guy who TRIED to become bisexual. He was around a lot of gays and saw how easy it was for them to have sex and thought "how much more" he'd be getting (an adult teen, IIRC, possibly 20) and so tried to get into it...but he never could, not even for a quickie. Even solo was better for him. He had many gay friends and defended them from gay bashers and he took part in wild (hetero but still deviant in the eyes of many) sexual experimentation, so it's not like he was "inhibited" it was just he was not bisexual. He finally had to give up on even trying to be...and by then he had a gay male stalker. Life must've been more interesting than he liked back then.

---

Now u speaka my language PJ!

Not into the gay stuff, but have seen it..constantly

"hey, want to go to a skin party!"

Says the sort of early 20 something who is prime rib for it all

Uhm..how about no?

So you are not gay?

Nope

Kid RAN away..good writer tho, he just ran away..oh..before that he offered to go on some crime spree to pay for drugs..as long as I'd partner up with him

Uhm..no

posted April 06, 2014 02:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Okay, here's my counterargument: I'm not a liar. I'm not lying. Maybe you are because it goes against what you're comfortable believing.

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There is a difference b/t lie and untrue PJ.

Mainly this sort of "i have no control over what i do! it's my genes!"

posted April 06, 2014 02:29 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StarlightSmileSupreme:
Padre, some people are only attracted to their own sex and not to the other. How do you explain that? What do you expect such persons to do? Ignore it and marry someone they aren't attracted to because society demands it? Have you ever been stuck with someone you don't like that much? Would you want to be married to them?

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posted April 06, 2014 02:30 AM            

Granted, there's a lot about sexuality that's still a mystery, even downright baffling at times.

posted April 06, 2014 02:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Orientation (*) does seem to be inherent to me and many others, just as some people are naturally attracted to the opposite sex a few seem attracted to the same (or both or neither) by the same process that just happens. Many gays remember having gay crushes from a small child and even having thoughts of marriage to someone of the same sex as young as 6--like a lesbian who wanted to marry Ariel in The Little Mermaid, at 6, and I vaguely recall some gay guy saying how much he crushed on the guys just as other little boys can crush on girls and women. Furthermore, the vast majority of people who say it's a choice say they never chose to be straight, that they always were. I can't help but suspect that the reason to insist it's a choice is to make one comfortable with one's own religious beliefs.

Granted, there's a lot about sexuality that's still a mystery, even downright baffling at times.

(* I'm defining "orientation" as sexual attraction and romantic ideation as opposed to behavior which IS a choice; a lesbian can turn tricks with men and so can straight guys, but there is no attraction there, not even the possibility of it, it is simply survival and/or slavery. Someone gay can can enter into a heterosexual marriage, may even be able to consummate it, yet there's no passion and it's typically doomed even if it's not loveless, I've heard women say they were glad when their husband finally admitted he was gay so they could move on. A straight person who takes vows to not engage in sex--and lives up to those vows--is not asexual but rather celibate. Behavior is a choice, but orientation is not, and that's the angle I'm coming at it from.)

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All true, excellent and the PJ i know

from my experience, with gay men, someone they trusted as children..raped them meanwhile their fam did absolutely nothing to protect them

IME, my Aunt was and old school Lesbian, very very independent, but very very loving of her nephews

The sort of semi lesbian/bi stuff..really ****** off my lesbian friends

What I've seen PJ is successful gay men..really like drugs..a lot..the stronger the better

posted April 06, 2014 03:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
That's another orientation, though that one gets complicated by so many social factors. I'm sad to say that bisexuals tend to get as much hostility from gays as much as straights. On top of that bisexuals don't like to hear how "gays don't have a choice, but you do, we expect you to be straight." Love (let alone attraction, crushes, etc) isn't logical or where you get a pop up asking you if you wish to continue (I wish it were).

But I did know a straight guy who TRIED to become bisexual. He was around a lot of gays and saw how easy it was for them to have sex and thought "how much more" he'd be getting (an adult teen, IIRC, possibly 20) and so tried to get into it...but he never could, not even for a quickie. Even solo was better for him. He had many gay friends and defended them from gay bashers and he took part in wild (hetero but still deviant in the eyes of many) sexual experimentation, so it's not like he was "inhibited" it was just he was not bisexual. He finally had to give up on even trying to be...and by then he had a gay male stalker. Life must've been more interesting than he liked back then.

---

posted April 06, 2014 03:46 AM            

quote:

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Have you ever met a gay man padre? When one meets a gay man it is perfectly obvious that he was born that way. That is if the observer has any common sense.

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Have you ever met a Transgender AG?
What do you make of[it]-[for lack of a better term] in terms of being born that way??Common sense is not so common. sigh...
Would you like to hear what it is like to be said they are "born that way" straight out of the horses mouth??

Nobody is ‘born that way,’ gay historians say

Virtually no serious person disputes that in our society, people generally experience their gay or straight orientations as unchosen and unchangeable. But the LGBT community goes further, portraying itself as a naturally arising subset of every human population, with homosexuality being etched into some people’s DNA.Are gays indeed born that way? The question has immense political, social, and cultural repercussions. For example, some of the debate over applying the Constitution’s equal protection clause to gays and lesbians focuses on whether gayness is an inborn characteristic. And the major argument gays and lesbians have made for religious affirmation has been, “God made me this way.”

Thus, if it’s proven sexual orientations are not innate, much of the scaffolding upon which today’s LGBT movement has been built would begin to crumble. Given the stakes, most gays and lesbians are dismissive or hostile toward anyone who doesn’t think being gay is an essential, natural characteristic of some members of the human race.

But a surprising group of people doesn’t think that – namely, scholars of gay history and anthropology. They’re almost all LGBT themselves, and they have decisively shown that gayness is a product of Western society originating about 150 years ago.

Using documents and field studies, these intrepid social scientists have examined the evidence of homosexuality in other times and cultures to see how the gay minority fared. But they’ve come up empty. Sure, there’s substantial evidence of both discreet and open same-sex love and sex in pre-modern times. But no society before the 19th century had a gay minority or even discernibly gay-oriented individuals.

Sexual orientations cannot be innate

While biology certainly plays a role in sexual behavior, no “gay gene” has been found, and whatever natural-science data exists for inborn sexual orientations is preliminary and disputed. So to date, the totality of the scholarly research on homosexuality indicates gayness is much more socio-cultural than biological.

Historical perspectives

Knowing about the phantom gay past when everyone else is certain gayness has always existed can be frustrating. Gay history professor Dr. John D’Emilio (University of Illinois-Chicago) once lamented that even while gay historical scholarship accepts the “core assumptions” of the social-construction idea, “the essentialist notion that gays constitute a distinct minority of people different in some inherent way has more credibility in American society than ever before.”

When and where did being gay originate?

So why did a gay minority first appear only a century and a half ago, and only in the West? Some scholars say it’s because that’s when and where doctors began to pathologize people who spoke of same-sex desires or experiences. Those patients developed homosexual identities, which led others to distinguish themselves as heterosexual...

posted April 06, 2014 06:59 AM            

WHO CARES

If someone has same-gender life partners or if they choose to dress up as the other gender, or if they go both ways, or if they don't like sex at all, or if they feel like they were born in the wrong body?

Who cares if it is genetic or learned or just plain choice?

It's none of our business! And until we have walked in their shoes we have no right to judge their life. They're not hurting anyone, they're just asking for acceptance and equal rights. Are we to deny them marriage when we don't deny it to convicts, known abusers, child molesters (marrying into families with children), old people who cannot have children, infertile couples, 90 year olds marrying 20 year olds, etc. The list just goes on. Not everyone has to like it, but I think they can nevertheless stay out of it.

posted April 06, 2014 09:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rajji:

Nobody is ‘born that way,’ gay historians say

Virtually no serious person disputes that in our society, people generally experience their gay or straight orientations as unchosen and unchangeable. But the LGBT community goes further, portraying itself as a naturally arising subset of every human population, with homosexuality being etched into some people’s DNA.Are gays indeed born that way? The question has immense political, social, and cultural repercussions. For example, some of the debate over applying the Constitution’s equal protection clause to gays and lesbians focuses on whether gayness is an inborn characteristic. And the major argument gays and lesbians have made for religious affirmation has been, “God made me this way.”

Thus, if it’s proven sexual orientations are not innate, much of the scaffolding upon which today’s LGBT movement has been built would begin to crumble. Given the stakes, most gays and lesbians are dismissive or hostile toward anyone who doesn’t think being gay is an essential, natural characteristic of some members of the human race.

But a surprising group of people doesn’t think that – namely, scholars of gay history and anthropology. They’re almost all LGBT themselves, and they have decisively shown that gayness is a product of Western society originating about 150 years ago.

Using documents and field studies, these intrepid social scientists have examined the evidence of homosexuality in other times and cultures to see how the gay minority fared. But they’ve come up empty. Sure, there’s substantial evidence of both discreet and open same-sex love and sex in pre-modern times. But no society before the 19th century had a gay minority or even discernibly gay-oriented individuals.

Sexual orientations cannot be innate

While biology certainly plays a role in sexual behavior, no “gay gene” has been found, and whatever natural-science data exists for inborn sexual orientations is preliminary and disputed. So to date, the totality of the scholarly research on homosexuality indicates gayness is much more socio-cultural than biological.

Historical perspectives

Knowing about the phantom gay past when everyone else is certain gayness has always existed can be frustrating. Gay history professor Dr. John D’Emilio (University of Illinois-Chicago) once lamented that even while gay historical scholarship accepts the “core assumptions” of the social-construction idea, “the essentialist notion that gays constitute a distinct minority of people different in some inherent way has more credibility in American society than ever before.”

When and where did being gay originate?

So why did a gay minority first appear only a century and a half ago, and only in the West? Some scholars say it’s because that’s when and where doctors began to pathologize people who spoke of same-sex desires or experiences. Those patients developed homosexual identities, which led others to distinguish themselves as heterosexual...

more here: http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/19/nobody-is-born-that-way-gay-historians-say/

---

Sure, gayness is 150 year old.
Maybe that article would have more success if written 150 years ago - in some local news paper, from a secluded town, with a poor library (the kind that's filled mostly with romance novels and children books), but today - we live in the age of information.

Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan

Ancient Greece: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece

posted April 06, 2014 09:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
I think the idea of being gay appeals to me because men are generally more open and know what they want. It is perfectly acceptable to openly say that you only want sex in the gay community and it is easily attainable.. Women? They are a completely different story... You will rarely get definitive answers on what a woman wants... They all will tell you they want a relationship even if they only want sex... And even if they only want sex you cant outright ask for sex.. I will never forget the time I messaged a girl on okcupid because her profile said she only wanted casual sex..so i exchanged a few messages with her and told her she was cute and she complimented me as well.. Anyways I asked her if she wanted to "hook-up" and she said I was moving too fast and i needed to slow down and woo her or I would never get to have sex with her.. Ok so she wants to be wooed into casual sex? Wtf?? Only a woman could come up with something that silly...

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Love you, AG

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