posted August 06, 2014 06:28 PM            

As someone with seniority as both an astrologer, and someone who's been on LL long enough to know my way around the place, there's something I feel it prudent, and pertinent, to address.

Bad astrology.

Bad astrology begins with absolute statements such as 'The Truth About ... ' or 'The Way X Really Is' or 'X is Always X' or some variation. I've seen plenty during my time here, and elsewhere. It's bad astrology because we're not in the dark ages anymore, and science has been developed for a reason. Astrology is intuitive in the sense that there will always be an innate spiritualism; but the mere fact we have the scientific method means that we can actually derive VALID conclusions.

What makes it valid?

I'd like to call iQ to the stand, as he's the best one I know in defence of astrological research. His work regarding asteroids is phenomenal -- and has led to truly groundbreaking research in the area of Soulmates and Twin Flames.

He uses science. He does research. He compiles data, he tests it -- and then he tests it some more.

I realise not everybody likes science, but there should at LEAST be respect for it. Spouting 'theories' with titles such as 'The Truth About ... ' when there hasn't been ANY research done is NOT offering the respect it deserves.

Caveat emptor. These are most frequently the purveyors of snake oil; they hock faulty wares. Use good judgement when following such poor example.

To me, it's an insult on a board such as this, where so many strive to obtain good data, test it adequately, and arrive at conclusions BASED UPON that research. I don't stand for such insults.

If you want to know the best means of going about it, just watch iQ. Ami Anne is another who is frequently performing her own research. Now, I may not agree with her conclusions -- or the interpretations -- but I respect her methods. Ceridwen and LeeLoo have been delving deeply into what makes certain synastric patterns and configurations tick -- with good research. GOOD science.

There is no place more necessary in astrology for good research than hypothetical points and asteroids. These are simply the uncharted waters -- the new territory. It's the cosmic wild west, open to interpretation -- and misinterpretation.

This is where good science and adequate research can protect us from false positives, and faulty conclusions. Over time, certain asteroids gain popularity and become as 'understood' as the traditional planets. But there was a day when EROS was virtually unknown; and now, we're still trying to ferret out the mysteries of CUPIDO.

How?

Good research. By seeing how the points ACTUALLY operate in the charts; whether our hypotheses are being supported by actual evidence, or if it's back to the drawing board. Until we know, we just DON'T KNOW. We can only theorise.

Personally, I love these largely undiscovered, new, and exciting asteroids. It's a whole new vista of possibility. But, I place my faith in the scientific method, as it can at least give me SOME clue as to what I might be looking at here.

Of course, I know anecdotal evidence -- my personal experience -- hardly counts as statistical significance, and most sample sizes are way below the average number needed for good scientific research. But, hey, we do try.

So I like to preface my own experiences with that: in my experience, or, that I've found that, or, in the limited research I've done, it would seem that -- and so on.

I've yet to run so tight and complete a study regarding a particular aspect or configuration, that I'd be remiss to title anything with, 'The Truth About ... ' Which I'd never do anyway, as it's wholly unprofessional. Perhaps something like, '[Aspect Here]: What Research Has Shown'.

Anything beyond that is simply lacking in humility and poor form. And, if it isn't derived from any sort of valid research -- there's a very high likelihood that it's something even worse:

Wrong.

That's my $0.03 as a scientist and astrologer for a quarter-century. And, oh, how much more I have to learn. Always learning. That's why I love this subject.

posted August 06, 2014 06:35 PM            

Yes, agreed.

Any particular reason why you've chosen this board to voice this, other than than the fact that asteroids are constantly breaking new ground and much research is needed? Haven't noticed any miscreant astrologers here lately. Well, I could be one.

posted August 06, 2014 06:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Astro keen:
Indigo,

Yes, agreed.

Any particular reason why you've chosen this board to voice this, other than than the fact that asteroids are constantly breaking new ground and much research is needed? Haven't noticed any miscreant astrologers here lately. Well, I could be one.

---

Not you, AstroK! Miscreant nothing; I love the work you're doing!

Oh, the scientist in me got her hackles up when a youngen started reinventing the wheel without first learning how it's constructed -- and why. But rather than accept my advice as a bit of the voice of experience here, I was insulted and told that 'I should've been a dentist or something because I don't understand astrology'.

While I'd actually agree that, despite my 25 years, I don't understand astrology, it's more akin to the fact that even modern physicists don't grasp quantum theory -- which is precisely why we keep digging.

posted August 06, 2014 06:59 PM            

I agree with you, Indigo.

One problem I see with what some people call astrology today, is that they are starting with a certain issue they see in their lives or personality or relationships or whatever, locate any kind of astrological symbol, they pick to be responsible for it (sometimes it seems even random, what is being picked), and declare it a general rule, oftentimes on the basis of one chart, usually their own, defending it with the most convincing argument in existence apparently: "It is so, because I say it is. And I say so, because I feel it." Usually followed by: "It`s an art anyway"

I am not saying that everyone is doing this, but yes, I have seen it, I stopped responding to that, and pretty much just narrowed down my list of potential discussion-partners on here.

But I agree with you, just wanted to say that.

Also, even with serious research (and to be honest, I have hardly seen anyone on this forum here, capable of "scientific research", myself included) it is really difficult to single out or isolate certain astrological aspects or configurations, correlating with certain traits or experiences (consistently).

There is always so much else at play. How can anyone even be sure that it is really that semisextile between Venus and Neptune they are responding to and not the Moon in 12th house for example?

And that is even only the second step, after really getting a firm grasp on basic astrological symbolism. The so called simple vocabulary, is not so simple after all. But while it has ranges of interpretations, it is not arbitrary.

Now I wouldn`t claim to see it all through. I am not all-knowing. lol
But neither are other people. I donīt believe that astrology has really been understood into the basics and depth by anyone single person, though some might come very close to it, closter than myself at least.

But anyway, statistic research is actually not that simple, like gathering 5 charts, isolating a single aspect, while blocking out and ignoring anything else that could actually contribute to this same or similiar manifestation.

I recommend Paul Westran`s book for learning what serious research-method entails.

posted August 06, 2014 07:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:

I agree with you, Indigo.

One problem I see with what some people call astrology today, is that they are starting with a certain issue they see in their lives or personality or relationships or whatever, locate any kind of astrological symbol, they pick to be responsible for it (sometimes it seems even random, what is being picked), and declare it a general rule, oftentimes on the basis of one chart, usually their own, defending it with the most convincing argument in existence apparently: "It is so, because I say it is. And I say so, because I feel it." Usually followed by: "It`s an art anyway"

I am not saying that everyone is doing this, but yes, I have seen it, I stopped responding to that, and pretty much just narrowed down my list of potential discussion-partners on here.

But I agree with you, just wanted to say that.

Also, even with serious research (and to be honest, I have hardly seen anyone on this forum here, capable of "scientific research", myself included) it is really difficult to single out or isolate certain astrological aspects or configurations, correlating with certain traits or experiences (consistently).

There is always so much else at play. How can anyone even be sure that it is really that semisextile between Venus and Neptune they are responding to and not the Moon in 12th house for example?

And that is even only the second step, after really getting a firm grasp on basic astrological symbolism. The so called simple vocabulary, is not so simple after all. But while it has ranges of interpretations, it is not arbitrary.

Now I wouldn`t claim to see it all through. I am not all-knowing. lol
But neither are other people. I donīt believe that astrology has really been understood into the basics and depth by anyone single person, though some might come very close to it, closter than myself at least.

But anyway, statistic research is actually not that simple, like gathering 5 charts, isolating a single aspect, while blocking out and ignoring anything else that could actually contribute to this same or similar manifestation.

I recommend Paul Westran`s book for learning what serious research-method entails.

---

Well said. I specially liked:

"But anyway, statistic research is actually not that simple, like gathering 5 charts, isolating a single aspect, while blocking out and ignoring anything else that could actually contribute to this same or similar manifestation."

Its always important to check what other aspects in the chart could contribute to the same similar manifestation.

But gathering a handful of charts is called exploratory research and can prompt researcher to actually do research based on the initial exploratory research.

posted August 06, 2014 07:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by IndigoDirae:

Bad astrology.

Bad astrology begins with absolute statements such as 'The Truth About ... ' or 'The Way X Really Is' or 'X is Always X' or some variation. I've seen plenty during my time here, and elsewhere.

---

Very true that should be an astrology rule LOL. Don't make absolute statements, don't generalize but anyone who has studied astrology long enough will naturally come to understand this.

posted August 06, 2014 07:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:

I agree with you, Indigo.

One problem I see with what some people call astrology today, is that they are starting with a certain issue they see in their lives or personality or relationships or whatever, locate any kind of astrological symbol, they pick to be responsible for it (sometimes it seems even random, what is being picked), and declare it a general rule, oftentimes on the basis of one chart, usually their own, defending it with the most convincing argument in existence apparently: "It is so, because I say it is. And I say so, because I feel it." Usually followed by: "It`s an art anyway"

I am not saying that everyone is doing this, but yes, I have seen it, I stopped responding to that, and pretty much just narrowed down my list of potential discussion-partners on here.

But I agree with you, just wanted to say that.

Also, even with serious research (and to be honest, I have hardly seen anyone on this forum here, capable of "scientific research", myself included) it is really difficult to single out or isolate certain astrological aspects or configurations, correlating with certain traits or experiences (consistently).

There is always so much else at play. How can anyone even be sure that it is really that semisextile between Venus and Neptune they are responding to and not the Moon in 12th house for example?

And that is even only the second step, after really getting a firm grasp on basic astrological symbolism. The so called simple vocabulary, is not so simple after all. But while it has ranges of interpretations, it is not arbitrary.

Now I wouldn`t claim to see it all through. I am not all-knowing. lol
But neither are other people. I donīt believe that astrology has really been understood into the basics and depth by anyone single person, though some might come very close to it, closter than myself at least.

But anyway, statistic research is actually not that simple, like gathering 5 charts, isolating a single aspect, while blocking out and ignoring anything else that could actually contribute to this same or similiar manifestation.

I recommend Paul Westran`s book for learning what serious research-method entails.

---

To all of that, Ceri. These are my thoughts exactly. I ALMOST got Westran's book yesterday, but I couldn't remember why I was getting it! So, that's why, huh? He's really got the science down? I'd certainly love to be able to conduct some decent studies in this area. But, as you said, OH, the confounding variables are END-LESS.

I think I've JUST NOW decided, maybe, possibly ... (see?) that a 5H/8H overlay is going to result in a sexual relationship in a higher per centage of the time than not.

But, OH, is that ANY 5H/8H overlay? My 8H is practically empty, save for PRIAPUS and PALLAS. His 5H (and 8H!) are packed. Full to the brim. Maybe it makes up for my lonely, practically empty 8H? So, I can at least say, that so long as one of you ... maybe ... has a pretty rockin' 5H or 8H -- there's a likelihood that it might go that way.

Man, look at all my qualifiers. Maybe. Chance that. Could be. Might. Possibly. 'Depending upon'. That's a big one for me; because it's just SO true. SO much MUST be considered; I agree tenfold.

posted August 06, 2014 07:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by amelia28:
I don't know if I am explaining this right but if you find a pattern in 25 charts lets say I would say that falls under exploratory research etc..

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posted August 06, 2014 07:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by amelia28:
Well said. I specially liked:

"But anyway, statistic research is actually not that simple, like gathering 5 charts, isolating a single aspect, while blocking out and ignoring anything else that could actually contribute to this same or similar manifestation."

Its always important to check what other aspects in the chart could contribute to the same similar manifestation.

But gathering a handful of charts is called exploratory research and can prompt researcher to actually do research based on the initial exploratory research.

I don't know if I am explaining this right but if you find a pattern in 25 charts lets say I would say that falls under exploratory research which is not scientific IMO but a little push for the researcher to perhaps conduct an actual experiment on the matter were variables are controlled such as other contributing aspects and a representative sample can then be acquired etc..

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THAT. Man, I love you guys.

I keep hoping that we could at least get something going. I'm doing exploratory research myself right now in a different area. I can't help but wonder -- why not astrology? Why not here?

posted August 06, 2014 07:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by amelia28:
Very true that should be an astrology rule LOL. Don't make absolute statements, don't generalize but anyone who has studied astrology long enough will naturally come to understand this.

---

Exactly! This is honestly the whole trick behind affinities. (Maybe one of the reasons why I enjoy them so much.)

MOON in GEMINI
3H MOON
MOON conjunct MERCURY
MOON in GEMINI dwad
MOON in GEMINI decanate
MOON conjunct 3R

... and on and on it goes.

I love finding the patterns in so many different ways across a chart or in synastry. Of course, in terms of doing any kind of viable research, it becomes a dance of 'well, is it X or is it Y?' meaning we get to devote a helluva lot of time to sorting out all confounding variables.

posted August 06, 2014 08:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by IndigoDirae:
Exactly! This is honestly the whole trick behind affinities. (Maybe one of the reasons why I enjoy them so much.)

MOON in GEMINI
3H MOON
MOON conjunct MERCURY
MOON in GEMINI dwad
MOON in GEMINI decanate
MOON conjunct 3R

... and on and on it goes.

I love finding the patterns in so many different ways across a chart or in synastry. Of course, in terms of doing any kind of viable research, it becomes a dance of 'well, is it X or is it Y?' meaning we get to devote a helluva lot of time to sorting out all confounding variables.

But, hey. That CAN be the fun part.

---

posted August 07, 2014 01:28 AM            

She's writing this because of me. Lol this post made me laugh so much.

For the 1000000000000x, I REPEAT:

I'M NOT STATING A FACT, BUT A THEORY.

If you would like to know which post it was about, here's a link:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/003062.html

Cheers. xx

posted August 07, 2014 04:00 AM            

Don't title things 'The Truth About' if you're making a hypothesis, or you've missed the point of a HYPOTHESIS entirely.

posted August 07, 2014 04:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
Guys guys guys...................

She's writing this because of me. Lol this post made me laugh so much.

For the 1000000000000x, I REPEAT:

I'M NOT STATING A FACT, BUT A THEORY.

If you would like to know which post it was about, here's a link:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/003062.html

Cheers. xx

---

I dont think it was BECAUSE of you. You were just the trigger.
Honestly there are a lot of people who go about astrology this way.

Anyway, a testing a theory usually does not start with "the truth about xy...".

Truth implies you already have decided what it really is.

posted August 07, 2014 05:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:

I dont think it was BECAUSE of you. You were just the trigger.
Honestly there are a lot of people who go about astrology this way.

Anyway, a testing a theory usually does not start with "the truth about xy...".

Truth implies you already have decided what it really is.

---

I'm shocked at how seriously you guys take a ******* post. I said that in enthusiasm. Of course I didn't expect people to blindly believe it, make it viral or something!

Seriously calm down.

No one told you to believe it. Those who find it true, will find it true, it's good for them. If you don't, then I don't give a **** . I didn't ask anyone to compete with their beliefs with me.

You guys are opposing against it as if I wrote a book or something. It's just a ******* post.

I don't want to argue anymore because there's no use. I'm going to believe in what I want.

xx

posted August 07, 2014 05:30 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:

I'm going to believe in what I want.

xx

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Yes, that much is clear.

posted August 07, 2014 05:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:

Yes, that much is clear.

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Thanks for understanding finally.

Even if you may think I'm delusional, I don't care because I don't believe I am. I believe it's you guys because you don't even consider my theory even a little. You're the one missing out on it.

You believe in indigo's researches and believe whatever she says. That only shows that you're only good for following and being a sidekick.

Bye.

posted August 07, 2014 05:48 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by IndigoDirae:
My post made you laugh? Jesus, you're conceited. Your whole thread made me cringe.

Don't title things 'The Truth About' if you're making a hypothesis, or you've missed the point of a HYPOTHESIS entirely.

Please learn the difference between a theory and personal experience, Mia. Please. It'll serve you well.

---

It's not the end of the world for me.

posted August 07, 2014 06:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gabby:
I genuinely understand both sides here, enthusiasm versus hard core research but the way this has all played out really makes me sad and somewhat disappointed in how we handle one another....why can't we show our enlighten selves, let others have their opinions and say without anyone attacking or throwing hurtful comments either way.
We are all imperfect humans it's all we can be, we have no other option, so why not give leeway for the over zealous youth or give respect to the ones who have passed that stage and desire more practical, research....honestly we need both together to find the truest beauty in both our humanity and our personal lives.
I just wish an attack was the last option instead of the quickest defense....it's not how an enlightened soul would react.
I love and respect all involved, it just makes me sad to see such beautiful ppl chose such an unattractive path.

---

Hi Gabby. I agree with you. I am always open minded about research and I would have loved it if we could do a research and see but even before considering my theory, Indigo attacked on it and called me delusional, spoilt brat, and many other names. I never even forced my opinion on anyone. I'm open with logical reasoning. But Indigo was downright mean about it.

I never wanted such an argument to happen.

I hope that it won't happen again.

posted August 07, 2014 06:18 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
Even if you may think I'm delusional, I don't care because I don't believe I am. I believe it's you guys because you don't even consider my theory even a little. You're the one missing out on it.

You believe in indigo's researches and believe whatever she says. That only shows that you're only good for following and being a sidekick.

---

MiaPluto,

could you please perhaps consider that you can sound like a brat with entitlement issues when someone merely questions you on what you only later start calling a THEORY? If you title something "The Truth" that implies it is the one and only truth for you, no other things that may likewise be true need apply, position taken. There is nothing "Hey guys, look, look, I found this thing, I think it's something nobody else yet found out!" in enthusiasm about calling something THE TRUTH. /SOLEMN BOOK OF TRUTH AT YE ALL

Statistics plays a certain part in all astrological research. Most people here never have enough of a sample size to state something as anything even remotely like the truth. This doesn't mean that we don't discuss the things that have turned up in charts that WE personally run into. Even in this place people run into different kinds of things since their own chart leads them to attract more of a one thing than another. That one thing may be something more common in general as well, but without dozens or hundreds of more people it's hard to say that much about its actual general relevancy to, say, people in our grandparents' age (born 1910 in some of our cases, and considerably younger in some other people's cases) OR perhaps then those still to be born another 20 years from now. Research piles up and leads to further theories if there is something that pops up enough times overall.

In your case you have what you have as your thing around you. It doesn't negate the fact that, as pointed out to you already, everybody will dislike something about someone. Even their partners or loved ones. Whether that correlates to something specific in a chart or not demands looking at not only what appears to be the apparent cause but also a dozen other things that could likewise be a contributing factor or perhaps even more of a better reason for the observed thing. It's okay to look at one factor only, but it implies that there may be the 5-15 other fronts that you're not looking at (since they don't interest you or something else).

What happens around one person is not necessarily what happens around 500 others, although it can or may be. I don't expect everyone to meet Virgos with Scorpio rising and a Fire moon although most Virgos that I've met also have Scorpio rising.

Mostly, perhaps don't use THE TRUTH as a subject line if you don't meant to bash people over the head with "THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH, NO OTHER TRUTHS NEED APPLY BECAUSE I CALLED IT THE TRUTH. BECAUSE 5 PEOPLE. THAT I KNOW. NAVEL OF THE UNIVERSE." It possibly doesn't work. All the more if talking theories.

Also doesn't help calling people questioning your theory straight off delusional or implying people are Cold and Calculating Horrible People Probably Not As Worthy As You and Your Opinions if they happen to be dentists. What have you got against dentists as well? Rhetorical question, but maybe you see the point why you come off as "I know best, ya'll can F. off, 'cause I know best, lalalala not listening, my thing = TRUUE"?

posted August 07, 2014 06:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
Hi Gabby. I agree with you. I am always open minded about research and I would have loved it if we could do a research and see but even before considering my theory, Indigo attacked on it and called me delusional, spoilt brat, and many other names. I never even forced my opinion on anyone. I'm open with logical reasoning. But Indigo was downright mean about it.

I never wanted such an argument to happen.

I hope that it won't happen again.

Mia xx

---

posted August 07, 2014 06:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by athenegoddess:
Mia, you were very rude to me when I asked a simple question.. very 'unprofessional'.

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Your question didn't make sense.

But I apologize anyways.

You can blame my mercury square pluto, with my mercury exalted in virgo. I hate the opposite of common sense. Sorry.