posted February 10, 2011 04:27 PM            

Before going deeper into the possibilities offered by orbital metaphors we must consider the range and distance characteristics of the centaurs.

The word "centaurs" is used by astronomers to refer loosely to a group of asteroids that have their distance range somewhere between Jupiter and Neptune or Pluto. There are to this date (May 14 2001) 28 objects that can be or have been classified as centaurs, but we will examine only those that have orbits accurate enough to be used for research. We will exclude 12 whose ephemeris uncertainty after 10 years is more than 5 arcminutes (0,05'), and will consider only the remaining 16, whose positions throughout the 20th century will change little (probably less than half a degree in most cases) as the orbit is improved with new observations.

Here is the list, with the semimajor axis ("a"), distance range ("r") and eccentricity ("e"), the quantities we need for the theoretical and symbolical development that will follow:

2000GM137 a= 7.84, r= 6- 8, e= 0.114
1998SG35 a= 8.22, r= 5-10, e= 0.321
1999UG5 a= 12.33, r= 7-18, e= 0.401
Chiron a= 13.52, r= 8-18, e= 0.382
Chariklo a= 15.78, r= 13-18, e= 0.171
Pylenor a= 16.74, r= 11-21, e= 0.303
1999XX143 a= 17.85, r= 9-26, e= 0.460
Asbolus a= 17.97, r= 6-29, e= 0.621
1998QM107 a= 20.19, r= 17-22, e= 0.135
Pholus a= 20.26, r= 8-31, e= 0.571
2000FZ53 a= 23.67, r= 12-34, e= 0.478
Nessus a= 24.57, r= 11-37, e= 0.519
Hylonome a= 25.06, r= 18-30, e= 0.247
1998TF35 a= 26.21, r= 16-36, e= 0.379
1999OX3 a= 32.24, r= 17-47, e= 0.459
1998BU48 a= 33.38, r= 20-46, e= 0.387

Typically, centaurs have orbits of high eccentricity, i.e., their orbits are very elongated, in contrast with the orbits of the major planets which normally tend to be circular. This means that dynamically and physically they are objects of a different nature even though they move in the same region of the outer planets. Like Pluto, their aphelion-perihelion distance range is enormous, and many of them traverse the region of several or all of the outer planets in a row, like homeless nomads or voyagers, crossing or intercepting the outer planets' distance rings, linking what otherwise is forever separate, "jumping" from one level or step of the ladder to the next, moving directly towards the Sun --like many comets do, to which they are related in many ways-- instead of around it.

Now let's see the distance range in more detail, in terms of perihelion and aphelion compared with the "rings" of the main planets, so that what the numbers say about spatial distribution can be better visualized:

============> JUPITER
1998SG35 5.8
Asbolus 6.8
2000GM137 6.9
1999UG5 7.5
Chiron 8.4
Pholus 8.7
============> SATURN
1999XX143 9.7
1994TA 11.8
Nessus 11.8
2000FZ53 12.4
Chariklo 13.1
1998TF35 16.3
1998QM107 17.3
1999OX3 17.5
Hylonome 18.8
============> URANUS
1998BU48 20.5

This list was according to the perihelion distance "q". The list according to aphelion distances ("Q") is as follows:

2000GM137 8.8
============> SATURN
1998SG35 11.0
1999UG5 18.2
Chariklo 18.5
Chiron 18.8
============> URANUS
1994TA 21.9
1998QM107 22.7
1999XX143 26.3
Asbolus 29.0
============> NEPTUNE
Hylonome 31.0
Pholus 31.9
2000FZ53 34.9
1998TF35 36.5
Nessus 37.0
1998BU48 46.4
1999OX3 47.0
============> APHELION OF PLUTO

These numerical data show what we can see in the graphics of their orbits. For example, during its perihelion Chiron "penetrates" the sphere of Saturn and during the aphelion it approaches the sphere of Uranus without "crossing" it or intercepting its heliocentric distance. Nevertheless, if we take into consideration the concept of the "distance ring" of a planet, defined by the area or the ring between the aphelion and the perihelion distances, we find that it is possible for Chiron to intercept not the heliocentric distance of Uranus (the astronomer's loose definition of "crossing") but its perihelion distance.

Let's see a concrete example, using the data of the last orbital cycle of Chiron. The complete crossing and distance-ring interception dates from 1700 to 2020 can be found at:
http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/astronom/crossings/chironcross.html

On March 7, 1943, at the peak of World War II, Chiron intercepts Saturn's heliocentric distance and goes "inside" of it, in the direction of the Sun. It reached its perihelion August 29, 1945, the same month of the atomic explosions at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It then began its voyage back to his "home" (the aphelion) towards the Uranian region. It entered the Uranian ring (crossed the Uranus perihelion distance) September 17, 1965, and reached aphelion December 7, 1970, without ever having intercepted the Uranus true heliocentric distance.

posted February 10, 2011 04:27 PM            

One cannot work with asteroids without defining their scope. This scope and their domain is delimited by the place they occupy in the solar system, which represents a ladder and is a function of the planet's velocity or distance to the Earth or the Sun.

To the scope and domain one must add the form of action, because an asteroid of very large eccentricity acts very differently from one with a very circular orbit. 944 Hidalgo --very eccentric-- acts in a very different way from Ceres --almost circular. Very eccentric orbits become crossers between one planetary sphere and the other, or between several spheres or domains in a row.

This is an astronomical fact. It is how an asteroid moves heliocentrically. From there one follows the paradigm: if this is how it moves in the solar system, if this is how it acts astronomically, then its astrological characteristics must be an expression of this movement in scope, domain, and form of action.

This does not contradict what people working with asteroids have found to be their astrological characteristics. It delimits it in order to be able to organize the information and integrate their function within the whole, avoiding the infinite expansion of meanings and associations, understanding in what way a Centaur or a trans- Neptunian (slow moving and/or very eccentric, crossing several planetary spheres in its motion) differs from those that are very close to the Earth and move very fast, or those that move almost in circles (the traditional main-belt asteroids).

The asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, considered collectively, establishes a clear and obvious separation between the world of the gas giants, the transcendences of existence (slow-moving), where by definition all the centaurs have their home, and the much faster world of the inner or terrestrial planets. The physical and dynamical differences between the two worlds are fundamental.

We have a set of small planets whose motion is almost totally controlled by the Sun, i.e. their mutual perturbations or gravitational interactions are small, then the asteroid belt, like a colony of the world of the fixed stars inside the Solar System, and then, beyond the belt, we are in a world of giants that are able to gravitationally push and pull the Sun enough to make it swing around the Barycenter of the Solar System.

If we are to make the analogy between a human being and the solar system, we could imagine the asteroid belt like a sort of navel dividing the higher from the lower part of the body, or the higher brain and consciousness functions (the transcendences) and the bodily or vital functions (the terrestrial planets).

Of course, we can reverse this and say the slow planets represent our "unconscious" lower functions and the faster planets (Sun, Mercury, etc.) our "conscious" part, which is the more superficial or obvious way one would think. But this doesn't matter. My point is simply that structurally the Solar System is clearly divided between inner and outer, and that this notion is important to understand the nature of the centaurs, whose sphere of action is the outer solar system.

The inner solar system, from the asteroid belt inwards (the terrestrial planets, the world of Apollo asteroids, etc.) is the "micro" scale, while the centaurean world is "macro" (and the transneptunian is a sort of "cosmic" or *historical* scale). Then, the "Jupiter group" (1998SG35, 1999LE31, 2000GM137) is transitional, and the asteroid belt is the "meso" scale, like a sort of very open market of possibilities and multitudinous variations of centering, stabilizing, adaptive, assimilative activity, like a ring that holds together and at the same time separates the 2 worlds, like a barrier, a membrane, a protective ring which in society is represented by social institutions and the divisions of labor.

Let's imagine for a moment that only the planets up to Jupiter exist. How would be the world without Saturn? I we answer this question, we may be able to understand the sphere in which fast asteroids move, where there is no Saturn and the farthest we can go is Jupiter. How would Astrology be if there were no slow-moving planets? If you make a reading that does not include Saturn, you will be approaching what it means to make an asteroid astrological reading based on fast-moving asteroids, excluding centaurs, and transneptunians, with innumerable details but without "weight or transcendence.

Frequently, I have come to see working with fast asteroids similar to shopping at the local market; a big open Sunday market in the main plaza is an excellent analogy of the meaning of the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Another analogy is a street scene in a play: many people in different activities sharing horizontally a common place. This is an apt astronomical description of the asteroid belt.

Death is without a doubt one of the transcendental facts of life, together with birth, sexual initiation, and marriage (this last one not so much lately!). To understand the scope of the fast asteroids, let's imagine the common social context of these experiences or events: the meaning they have is recognized by everybody, there are a series of rules of behavior or rituals expected from those that participate in them, giving and receiving support and solidarity, and society as a whole acknowledges their transcendence and contributes with social and religious ceremonies so that the individual can successfully go through them; there are public recognitions, celebrations and festivals (or parties); families get together with gestures of affection and generosity, and we are also given the right, the space, and the time for our intimacy.

Amidst this world of social cohesion maintained through a "pact" between the people, there are many elements, such as the thieve, the mentally ill, the poet, the person in love, the immature, the alcoholic, the prostitute, the car-racer, the diver, the rock singer, etc., that engage in "marginal" activities outside this order, as if wishing to break it: these are the orbit-crossers or interceptors among the fast asteroids (Phaethon, Icarus, Amor, Bacchus...), acting as "meteors" that passionately irrupt and dramatize the contingent and fragile, "chaotic" character of existence and of the supposed order, which actually is always living hand-in-hand with chaos.

But somehow order always seems to assimilate the chaotic forces, and society always keeps its cohesion, the pact remains.

posted February 10, 2011 04:28 PM            

To illustrate the orbital domain and gesture of centaurs, we can consider, for example, the sphere of action of 1181 Lilith, a normal asteroid of the main belt between Mars and Jupiter, and compare it with that of the centaurs. [NOTE: This part is based on previous notes I wrote collected here]

We must make distinctions between the realm of the centaurs and the realm of the main-belt asteroids. One cannot talk of a slow planet the same way one talks of a fast-moving planet. Centaurs move 20 to 40 times slower than the main-belt asteroids, and this requires that we adjust the meaning we give to them or at least the way we interpret them.

1181 Lilith works within the bounds of present-day social values, which fits the characteristics of the orbit, similar to the many other "facets" and "divisions of labor" of modern-day living that I see relate to the main belt asteroids where 1181 is found.

I would take any description of a main-belt asteroid like 1181 Lilith and try to accommodate it inside the limits of the asteroid belt: they must live in community; so asteroid 1181 Lilith could represent those aspects of the Lilith archetype that are expressed in their most "civilized" or mediated form.

This is where it becomes important to consider the centaurs *together* with the main belt asteroids to differentiate the qualities of one and the other, where one sees a division of labor and not a duplication.

There are many asteroids (e.g. Hekate) with myths which do not match the orbits at all. That is why it is necessary to accommodate people's experience with 1181 Lilith within the framework offered by main-belt orbits: a very large collectivity working together in community without breaking the social order.

The idea I am proposing is that all these archetypes have different ways or "levels" of expression. The level that corresponds to asteroids of the main-belt with regular-shaped orbits is everyday institutionalized living. That is why the 1181 Lilith aspect of the Lilith archetype finds expression in --for example-- the social worker: it is bounded and institutionalized, and its aim is social integration: this is the dynamics of this type of asteroids. "Lilith" here brings the socially marginal or rejected into society's institutions, and is more integrative.

But there are other aspects of Lilith that cannot be institutionalized. They are more primal and wild, "breaking into" or invading a person's life (centaurs), or more instinctive and related to repressed sexuality (succubi and nightly demons, related to the lunar apogee). Of course words are very relative, but it is not difficult to see the differences when one keeps in mind the 3 realms: the lunar realm, esp. The lunar orbit and its dark side, the asteroids of the main belt, the centaurean-plutonian tabu-breaking and moral trespassing, etc.

If there are "rebels" and "wild" asteroids, then this has to show in their orbits. Normal main belt asteroids do not show this behavior. I'm following a paradigm that states that astronomical reality must match astrological symbolism. The orbit of 1181 Lilith does not belong to this category of "rebels". There are bodies that enter the asteroid belt but do not belong there (like Hidalgo or the Damocles group) and there are others that travel from one extreme to the other of the main belt but never leave (like Hopi). We can always find an orbit that models the social behavior we are looking for or want to chart.

The orbits of most centaurs, almost by definition are "on the margins" of the solar system: they "cross" the orbits of others, they do not "belong" to a specific place, they are "in-between", "out" of the mainstream, unstable, chaotic, precarious, "sick", "resented", wounded", etc...

The orbit of Lilith is not like this. 1181 belongs to very large community of orbits that are very stable, all bounded in the space between Mars and Jupiter... it never goes out like all the centaurs do... and it also moves much faster, 20 to 40 times faster than the centaurs...

Modern society's institutions all deal with people who are "different" (the mentally retarded, the cripple, the deaf or the blind, the refugee, the very poor or very "ugly", the minority...). I can see 1181 Lilith's "integrative" work here. These people (or my fear of them) are all part of the community in which we live. They are given rights, protection by the law, social institutions to help them.

There is a whole system instituted for them. They are not "wild", they are not dangerous, they are just different and need special attention and care... the prostitute, the poor minority, the homeless, the mad, the widow, the very old... etc.

This is all very much main-belt asteroids territory. They are all "bounded" and controlled, under the control of social institutions... so maybe Centaurs are not like this, they are wild and break everything, they trespass, and wound, and kill, and also bring ecstasy, redemption, un-conditioning, etc.

Centaurs reach well beyond these boundaries and make you "fall" into a crack that becomes a menace to the social order (the orbit-crossing). Female centaurs are in this respect less aggressive than the male ones, i. e., Chariklo never crosses Saturn and only gently crosses Uranus for a few years, although it stays between the world of Saturn and Uranus, leaning much more toward Uranus.

For example, a married woman (Chariklo) who is very "independent" about her sex life... which of course most times means a crack, a division of her womanhood, a wound, a painful conflict with the rules of society: this is the centaurean paradigm. A (female) centaur, in this context, will transgress limits that 1181 never would.

Let's take for example a social worker who deals with street prostitutes. His/her work is institutionalized, is "professional"... this is the Lilith part: the daily living, the values, the problems, the opportunities, the help they receive, their dealings with the police, their "humanity" and at the same time marginality, the prejudices, the abuses, the cruelty or indifference with which they are treated, etc. How I deal with all this is 1181 Lilith.

But when you, as a social worker, "touch" the other person's wound, or to put it differently, the other person's wound touches you --which is the same as touching your wound-- then you are out of it completely and you cannot handle it any more, It ceases being institutionalized and becomes primal and wild. It is a question of life and death, of agony and ecstasy, there are no answers available, only pain, and grace, and joy, and passion... then you don't give a damn, you are "taken" by the centaur's energy and you do a moral trespassing, and pay the price.

The father rapes his daughter, the married woman opens herself to her lover, the "door opens" and light and darkness come together and live in your wound, and in the wound you inflicted on others.

This is the centaurs!

posted February 10, 2011 09:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucia23:
Awesome! This is too funny!

(Kat, if it's 24 LEO, it sextiles not squares my Uranus at 24 Libra.)

---

Forgive me...it FEELS like a square...

Ami...I have no problems understanding you...

posted February 10, 2011 11:09 PM            

Kat

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/206124.html

posted February 11, 2011 03:14 AM            

My first husbands asteroid lilith conj my moon/nessus.
My second husband dark moon lilith conj my moon/nessus.
My last on and off relationships nessus was in conj to my moon/nessus but so many people born from 1964-67 have nessus conj in orb to my moon/nessus. My feelings must be in contact with someone I be togheter with. That's important. I cant say my relationships was in pain. I really love this men and that was strong feelings.

I've checked out peoples chart who is very dangerous and sick and I cant see there are some specifik nessus connection but maybe it should because I think nessus/moon people are good to feel pain. I'm not sure everycone cope to meet this kind of feelings. I've very very strong feelings. I'm intuitive and think I feel more than other people. I also see things that other people not cant see.

My sons nessus in conj to my Sun/AC.
My daughters nessus/karma 11 in conj to my N, merk7/uran8/pluto12.
We have strong tie to each other and there is not any kind of abusive between us. That's not in my familyculture.

posted February 11, 2011 07:13 AM            

In the other aspects such as trines and oppositions ,you will feel a watered down version of what I am saying.
It will be flavored with what I am saying but the intensity will vary based on the aspect and closeness of orb.

posted February 11, 2011 07:58 AM            

I think it is primarily an amoral energy in that the other person is an object for your use.

However, I think the secondary part is sadism.
You enjoy hurting them-----grrrrrrrrr

posted February 11, 2011 08:00 AM            

No one likes to look at the darkness within oneself or the darkness within another.
However,one is a fool if one ignores it.
*I* can attest to that.
One cannot have a healthy life and ignore any part of oneself.

posted February 11, 2011 08:11 AM            

In my relationship with this person,I did not always feel this way.
In fact,I didn't until many years down the road and many terrible things.

However, if you have a strong Nessus connection with someone, this energy exists i.e the amoral, sociopathic, sadistic energy

posted February 11, 2011 08:15 AM            

I think a strong Nessus could be good in a relationship if you handle it wisely and maturely.
It is a glue like Pluto.

posted February 11, 2011 08:19 AM            

It is important to talk about what comes up.
More importantly,it is crucial for people to realize that the emotions ARE past emotions,primarily.

The present person triggered them but they are YOUR painful emotions from your past.

If you lost the person,you would still have all the same emotions locked inside.
They would come out again with another person or situation such as a tragedy.