posted January 08, 2009 05:09 PM         

I almost killed a man once. I have thought a lot about it lately....
this is not something I have ever taken lightly. I almost gutted him with a butcher knife. I would have been defending myself..it was not to be, but in just the blinking of an eye I came one hair from taking his life. I understand lexx words. i have at times wished I had finished it that day. Facing that I feel that way inside myself is not easy. I guess it went the way it was supposed to. I am not a monster nor would I harm any living thing under normal circumstances, but if anyone ever tries to hurt me again physically, I will kill them and not blink and take whatever punishment comes.

posted January 08, 2009 10:28 PM         

I think one has to get on a might high horse to make another feel quilty wanting to continue living. Why don't you take some of that misplaced sympathy and put it where it belongs. On the victim.Let's be forgiving that he had to kill to save himself/family/stanger.
Who are you to spout the laws of the universe? Are you privy to something the rest of us aren't? Sounds like your ego would like you to think you've got it all figured out. Black and white.

Maybe it was the karma of the criminal to seek a potential victim that didn't stand for senseless murder, but rather helped him along on his path of self destruction.And I would not for one second consider allowing someone like that to live to come back another day or to another person.

You mentioned having a policeman hold a gun to your head and called him a pussy because he didn't pull the trigger. What kind of BS is that? Where was your high and might self then? As far as I'm concerned if you knowingly taunt someone into killing you then your just as guilty of that killing.You were willing to taunt him into becoming the very thing you say is wrong on the flimsy ground that your ego wouldn't allow you to be merciless at the hands of another. How dare you.

Maybe a life not worth defending is a life not worth living.

posted January 08, 2009 11:28 PM         

Whatever. It's fine. You have your issues with it and they are your issues. I won't take the projection to heart.

No one can hurt us without our permission, in truth.
We are all privy to the same information and we all can either live with ego or without it. It is a choice. The laws of the Universe are black and white! Positive and negative.

LOL I didn't taunt anyone in to killing me. I was unlawfully arrested so don't judge, ok? I was using my story as an analogy to explain that we can unwittingly draw behavior onto ourselves by our attitude. If l had just let him take me l would have been gang-raped in the police station cell and l knew that. I was telling him "don't **** with me" and he didn't. Would you have preferred if l just meekly let him arrest me?

"how dare you" ...lol That is a little bit judgmental, don't you think Good Girl?

I don't need to forgive you cos it's YOUR anger not mine. This is your issue you have with me, not mine. It doesn't affect me.

I'm afraid l don't subscribe to victim behavior because l sincerely believe that it hinders the other person and feeds their insecurities keeping alive their 'story' through over-cooked sympathy which perpetuates the cycle. Cycles are made to be broken and if i'm the only one with any balls to say these things then so be it.

People need to work through their **** and move on to evolve, not sit and wallow in what has been. there is no yesterday, you know. It's a memory. It goes back to the old "give a man fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" approach.

I can empathize and have compassion but these things are
positive and constructive.

Maybe l can ask you what made you go off like a loaded gun at me?

In these circumstances, both parties are the victim and both parties are guilty. You can't just condemn a man who rapes until you understand his background. Maybe he was incessantly raped as a child and he knows no better. It's called genetic behavior and it's a psychological pattern. The man needs help and very same society that biatches on him and accuses him of 'this and that' lets him down. THIS is true compassion. It's so easy to say "you are wrong and i'm right". Well the world doesn't work like that and i think it's naive to assume that just because someone is trying to kill you, you are better than them and therefore can kill them to save your more important self.

Anyway, this topic has two extremes so this argument is pointless to an extent.

I agree, LEXX is an amazing person but not because of this thread. She is an amazing person regardless of her history.

posted January 08, 2009 11:42 PM         

quote:

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No one can hurt us without our permission, in truth.

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posted January 09, 2009 12:07 AM         

LEXX - l am sorry for what you went through in the past. I sincerely hope your future is positive and without the past tainting it.

I said " No one can hurt us without our permission, in truth. "
I stand by what l said. It's my truth. If you love someone and they hurt you, it is not them it is you that is hurt. You have given your consent to allow hurt to be experienced, not them.

You are talking about severe cases of abuse though, which is not really what this thread is about. It's about the right to end a life and you are taking it one step further.

Many people are abused in life. A child who suffers rape has memories that are the worst memories to them. A child that suffers loneliness feels that abuse at the same relative level as the raped child. In their own eyes there is no difference.

We can not change the past; we can only learn how to not let our past affect our future. THIS is the most important thing... to realise that when people do things to us, it is our own reaction and hurt that dictates how we deal with it, not the other person's. If someone hands you a grenade they no longer have it. It is no longer their problem and it is up to you now whether you decide to drop it or hold onto it.

posted January 09, 2009 04:44 AM         

ARE you telling me that you would actually KILL her son to SAVE your son??????

and don't bother telling me "oh no of course not... BUT, she's my friend and so it's different"!!

It's not being idealist... my view is not from an idealist's perspective. It's from "let's look at both sides of the coin first" perspective lol

Another example. YOUR child attacks someone in the street and gets knifed to death. The other person says it's self defense. Are you really just gonna say "well he deserved it cos he attacked this person". Are you hell!
you are going to spend the rest of your life thinking it's unjust. "he only wanted money for a pack of cigarettes" you'll argue.

posted January 09, 2009 05:33 AM         

I'm sorry, I don't mean to make light of it.
And if my child did something...well, hell, that doesn't mean I would agree, or think it is right. Point is, I don't know. I can project how I'd feel. But it's still just a projection.
I mean, look, I can completely relate and grieve with the families of people who lose their children/families on death row! I feel for serial killers. It's not a matter of right/wrong for me. It's a matter of compassion.
So...it doesn't say anything to me, I just don't think it's good for me to say it's right or wrong altogether to kill someone in self-defense...if it's my own child, hell, it's another story, of course, because I am human and I'm naturally biased. It would be awfully neat if I wasn't, but that doesn't feel like human nature to me...it feels like an ideal (which even I myself try to adhere to most of the time).
It's always another story when we're on the other side of it. It's never that clean and cut and dry is my point! We can make our beliefs out to be fool-proof and ethically sound but the toll that's taken on us...well, I just can't imagine our decisions being so neat when it comes to such things.
We're talking essentially about self-preservation (or the preservation of loved ones) when it comes right down to it. So our choices and actions aren't always right/wrong/good/bad necessarily...they just are. How we live with them? That's what happens later.

posted January 09, 2009 08:59 AM         

I do believe there are people who would stand there and let themselves be killed and for different reasons. If it's your own life at risk, do as you will either way, imo.

I don't think killing is a light enough issue to be thought of as "okay". I think it's a reality that has to be dealt with realistically and that it is possible to understand the reasons why people kill other people. I do think every action creates a reaction and that some form of karma is always created in interactions between people. Killing would be no different but I also think it's short-sighted to think that you or I know all the inner workings of karma and what would actually be created in any given situation especially as we don't know the previous karmic history that lead to that situation to begin with.

Also, imo, forgiveness doesn't go just one way. If you can forgive someone for killing you, they can forgive you for killing them. The difference is which one of you actually wants that.

I do think it's possible to try to defend others without intending to kill someone and that people who stand idle while others are in danger are equally guilty of murder if people die. Even if you think killing is going to tarnish your spiritual record, so to speak, I don't see how, in that particular situation, you could gain any karmic points for keeping one person's blood off your hands while they kill any others. It's too egoistic a motive. I think in individual circumstances, that that would actually be very rare, btw. I agree that most people wouldn't think but just act.

posted January 09, 2009 09:15 AM         

quote:

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Imagine a world where people, innocents if you like, weren't prepared to fight for their own survival. It would consist only of murderers, etc. Like it or not there are people prepared to do unjust things. If you don't stand up to them, they win and learn that behaviour is okay because it gets them what they want with no consequence. Does that make us any different to them? I think it's the intention that seperates us.

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I actually have thought about that alot and I agree. This may seem silly but it makes me think of the Hobbits in the Lord of the Rings. They were a peaceable people and lived completely free from the worries of any kind of violence ... but only because so many others were risking their lives to keep it so. I think there is a very modern abhorrance of any kind of violence and a denial of even the possibility of evil ... or a purely black and white view. Imo, and I agree with Tolkien and Rowling on this, it can be traced in part (however small) to the dumbing down and over editing our children are exposed to. Read the original, unedited Grimm's tales for one example. And it just seems so wrong, to me, to teach or pretend to kids that there is no such thing as evil or a need to fight for a good reason and what death and killing is ... when there are so many children in the world who live in a world like that every day ... and who could benefit from our children's understanding and help as they grow older. But no, the "bad guys" aren't really bad, just misunderstood and the "good guys" defending themselves are just evil monsters, no better than the "bad guys" anyway and possibly even worse for not taking the "high road". The only good guys left then are the ones who are dead. Imagine the LotR with that kind of view in mind ... Sauron rose to power by murdering, enslaving, and torturing innocent people, all the good people refused to risk killing his misunderstood minions to save themselves or each other and so they all die. Sauron wins, destroys Arda, the end.

posted January 09, 2009 12:08 PM         

I never said you didn't have experience in this situation, that you got your opinion from books....what does that have to do with anything?

I was pointing out that you say it is wrong to kill, but then you admit to taunting a cop to pull the trigger. Encouraging him to kill.You would be quilty of PRODUCING the kind of person you are against.

As for your example, if I could avoid killing my friends son of course I would do so but I would without a doubt if it was what had to be done protect my son.

If my son killed of course I'd be grief stricken, but, yes, if he put himself in the position of harming another HE IS ASKING FOR IT. And he is to expect the consequences of his actions.Doesn't mean I'd like it.

As a side note, I want to make a sincere apologize for my anger getting the best of me. It is not you, because I really am not bothered by people having a different view than mine (although by now that may be hard to believe ). I don't think you deserved the tone of my post either. I am sorry.