posted January 10, 2009 10:09 PM         

quote:

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I can struggle with my sister day in and day out, but if someone lays a hand on her, I become like King Mufasa. I've got to protect her.
That's very important to me. I don't understand how people can take that for granted or even ruin their families. It's like burning down your house. Now what are you going to go home to?

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posted January 10, 2009 10:13 PM         

quote:

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Take responsibility for your own safety by either learning a martial art or whatever, and then apply it in situations. do you honestly think that a black belt karate individual resorts to killing a man who attacks him?

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posted January 10, 2009 10:15 PM         

quote:

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Am l right or am l right, in this ridiculously one-sided debate!

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quote:

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l can still see the bigger picture l will continue trying to drag you all up to it. It's what enlightened people do!

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There are many who’ve passed thru LL during the time I’ve been here, who had the noble urge to “enlighten” all the rest of us. It’s OK
Just don’t tell me that Resistance Is Futile or I’ll have to go hide under my bed
Or get a new lightsaber from PA

posted January 10, 2009 11:13 PM         

I respect your intention of desire for peace in the world and between people. That cannot be achieved by one vision or will alone. That's why it's a collective whole and not a dictatorship.

We all have free-will. In an ideal world with our free will we would each choose to go about our business in peace, therefore creating a peaceful state for everyone. But that's my vision. Someone elses ideal vision of the world may be that we are all armed with weopons and go about killing people with ideals different to those. We all have different ideas, beliefs, ideals, ways. All conflict stems from ego. Including all arguments about who is right and wrong, who owns a piece of land and who has the better or right way.

When you start telling people that you are more enlightened than everyone else, I see that as a God complex. When you start telling others that they should adhere to your ideal of the perfect world, I think that is a God complex. My observation has been that sometimes people who think that they are spiritual take on the belief that they are more spiritual than anyone else or that they know more or better, and that they have some right to "teach" others "better ways". That thinking comes from ego, despite any genuine intentions for a "better world".

posted January 11, 2009 06:44 AM         

That aside, here's what Lara is getting at, if I understand correctly:
http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html

I personally think that's worth considering (especially when it comes to hating a group as opposed to individuals that have harmed you, assuming the said group isn't actively helping the ones who cause harm), but it's a philosophy that can be misapplied. That is, good words, IMO, but take it with a grain of salt.

posted January 11, 2009 10:01 AM         

you ROCK! yessssssssss

quote:

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Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.

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this is completely what i'm talking about!
Than k you Dervish.

It's not about being more enlightened, it's about seeing the BIGGER PICTURE. That's all l wish for in everyone here... l don't think that's egotistical at all. you all want me to agree with you and when l don't, you all put me down. So you can't then say i'm an egotist lol

With all due respect, this debate is one-sided cos all of you believe in killing to survive and l don't LOL

posted January 11, 2009 10:18 AM         

Thanks for emphasising my point.

The Bigger Picture. Everyone has their own version.

Truth is - no-one really knows unless they are in that situation. Never say never. No matter what your ideals or theories, or even preferences.

posted January 11, 2009 10:58 AM         

Personal gain is not always something material.

To be on topic:

I don`t think this question can be answered with a simple Yes or No.

I am definitely against killing other people, definitely. But like so many here I can imagine situations where it may come down to a choice of an attacker or the attacked (including the children).
I would prefer to just "disarm" the attacker, making him sit down in a corner and waiting for the police to arrive.
But in some situations that will not be possible.

I have never been in life threatening situations, at least not as much as I am aware of, but there have been threatening situations.

Both times I had a weapon in my hand. Both times I wasn`t able to defend myself (cause in the back of my head I thought: I can`t hurt a living being). Both times I felt ashamed of myself, that I didn`t bring myself to defend myself, even let the attacker take my weapon away from me.

One time I got beaten up quite badly, and if those kids (I was one myself) had set their mind on killing me, they could and would have done there.
In the other case I was just lucky to not get raped.

I made an oath to myself, that something like this will never happen again. Does that mean I would kill a person?
I would say: No.
But then again, I remember a situation, when my brother got threatened by a youth with a knife, and I actually grabbed the knife by the blade and wrestled it out of that boy`s hand. And no I didn`t feel any pain (it was bleeding quite badly actually), but the thing is, in that moment I haven`t been myself. It was like there was just a programm playing, and that program said: "Protect your brother. No matter what."
The thing is, such situations are instinctual, so we can`t really say how we will react in such a situation. Ideals vs reality, not necessarily the same thing.

posted January 11, 2009 11:19 AM         

"I think, we are all equal spiritual beings, each on a unique Earth journey. Everyone is equal, and at different points in their evolution, and that is not for judgement, just acceptance and understanding. And it's not a heirarchy of spirituality. No-one is more or better or less or worse - everyone are equals and bring unique gifts and energies to the world."

posted January 11, 2009 11:44 AM         

quote:

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Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.

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quote:

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I am definitely against killing other people, definitely. But like so many here I can imagine situations where it may come down to a choice of an attacker or the attacked (including the children).
I would prefer to just "disarm" the attacker, making him sit down in a corner and waiting for the police to arrive.
But in some situations that will not be possible.

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~Getting off the Karmic "Payback Wheel"~

posted January 11, 2009 12:45 PM         

quote:

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Thanks for emphasising my point.

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I never 'empathized your point'... this has been my point the entire way through this thread! lol
sorry if you misunderstand me.

The BIGGER PICTURE is the same for all of us.. it's not different versions. It is simply to come from love. UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

posted January 11, 2009 01:33 PM         

What the BIG PICTURE?

posted January 11, 2009 03:52 PM         

LOVE and FEAR

People kill out of FEAR.
People forgive out of LOVE.

The bigger picture is one of LOVE.
The immediate picture is one of FEAR.

posted January 11, 2009 04:50 PM         

I agree with Zala here. Some people see the world very much in black and white; others see shades of gray.

I see very much idealism in what you say, and I generally agree, but I wonder how it can be done in actual situations.

Example:
My mentally handicapped brother had a very unpleasant experience in his youth. Two kids were peeing into the pocket of his trousers.

Fast forward some years. My friend brought a new friend of hers with her. My mother recognized in this friend one of these kids, who had done this nasty thing to my brother.
That friend apologized to me, my mum and my brother.
I didn`t want to have him around, I admit it. But my mother said that everyone deserves a second chance, as he had been so young, was really a miserable young man, who deserved our compassion(he really was or is a poor soul, I agree), and since he had apologized, she should have been forgiven.

I was suspicious. I mean I wanted to forgive, but yes, I guess, I was still driven by fear.
However, I didn`t make a scene and was nice to that friend and tried to help him in any way I could. We talked a lot, and yes, his fate, his wrecked childhood, broke my heart.

However, he then broke up with my friend (or she with him, I don`t remember), and some months later I met him, and he tried to get back into my life, wanting to talk to me. I talked to him, but told him politely to stay away from my family (there were some hints that something wasn`t right with him). I also offered to keep talking to him,when he should need it. And i know my mum would have helped him, too, cause we really felt compassionate about him.
He declined.

Two weeks later we read in the newspaper, that he and two friends of him had killed a man, with a walking disability and slightly mentally handicapped.
They just killed him to see how it is to kill someone.

posted January 11, 2009 05:43 PM         

What I'm saying is the same thing I've been saying - that you don't know until you're in that predicament. You can theorise all you like about it. But you don't know.

You have some interesting theories. I'm pleased that they are your reality. I'm also grateful that they are not mine.

posted January 11, 2009 07:50 PM         

And..
FoL...
Very good topic!

posted January 11, 2009 09:02 PM         

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This attack sounds like a direct response to his childhood problems, don't you think?

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what did that poor handicapped man have to do with it?

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posted January 11, 2009 09:33 PM         

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you all want me to agree with you and when l don't, you all put me down. So you can't then say i'm an egotist lol

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Lara, since you wrote "you all" and haven't clarified to whom you are actually speaking, please allow me to say that I only expressed my opinion on the topic here. I have zero desire to see you agree with me and I have not in any way tried to put you down.

posted January 11, 2009 09:43 PM         

lol
you know you keep attacking me on this thread... maybe you'd secretly like to kill me?
I'm actually asking a question not giving a statement!
geez!

posted January 11, 2009 10:16 PM         

quote:

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LEXX

lol
you know you keep attacking me on this thread... maybe you'd secretly like to kill me?
I'm actually asking a question not giving a statement!
geez!

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posted January 11, 2009 10:19 PM         

Did you even read the link that Lexx took the time to put up for you, or are you so in thrall with your own Bigger Picture that you can spare no time to try to understand someone else's?? I think you'll find that in many ways Lexx agrees with you, but you see "attack" instead

quote by Lexx from that thread "Getting Off the Karmic Payback Wheel" --

An eye for an eye...
Getting off the Karmic "Payback Wheel".
Walking one's talk of peace.
Karma v/s Free Will.
A balance, a choice.
We can end the cycles.

If one goes out and hurts someone else because they've been hurt by that other, then that accrues another "debt" that they will have to repay at some future point in order to balance the energies they have misused, by lashing out again rather than forgiving. It is an unending cycle that only choice and free will can put an end to.
But even then...the person you owe or if you were the wronged party, you or they... can negate the debt and stop the payback cycle.
That is what "turning the other cheek" means too. Not to be hit again but to turn away and refuse to play the game. (Hee hee, I like to think it could mean to "moon" someone with those "other cheeks" saying in essence...Fu-k off! I am not going to fight you!)
And during every second of every day, We have Free Will. WE are free to choose our behavior, our reactions. Our free will could cause us to choose to act in a negative unloving manner, or it could cause us to choose to act in a positive and loving manner. In Essence....Karma and Free Will co-existing in a balance.
If one only follows Karma then the payback cycle continues. Two wrongs do not make a right. We have the free will to say no to the Karmic cycles of payback, and to not incur any new Karmic debts.
So I like to say......"get off the cross, they need the wood"....or "get off the wheel and walk your talk".
Feet can climb but a wheel cannot.
Feet can take us off the familiar paths, but the wheel must stay on the road.

quote:

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l don't think that's egotistical at all. you all want me to agree with you and when l don't, you all put me down.

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posted January 11, 2009 10:38 PM         

Lara's totally unexpected icy last post to me, including a smile and a "lol" to boot....

quote:

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LEXX

lol
you know you keep attacking me on this thread... maybe you'd secretly like to kill me?
I'm actually asking a question not giving a statement!
geez!

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posted January 11, 2009 11:01 PM         

ok Zala, whatever... l didn't read the link because l missed it for no other reason than l am on my mobile all the time at the moment.

LEXX, l kind of figured you'd see my post as serious which is why l put the LOL but l can see you wanna make a spectacle of it anyway so what the heck.

I really don't know what is the problem with my having an opposing view and l really don't see why this has gotten so personal and yes, Zala... Lexx does come across as attacking me. I asked a question to DD cos l was interested in her view and all of a sudden Lexx is breathing fire and attacking my question lol

I guess you moderators all sleep in the same bed so no point me really even discussing this with the 2 of you.

I love LL but l have found this thread very revealing into a few people's characters and for that l thank FIST for posting it!

Having said that, i'm a peace-maker and I work with Archangels and spirits on a daily basis and l know that if l had the view that killing was OK 'under certain circumstances' my work with the angels would be much harder for me to achieve and l would have more difficulty dealing with spirits as it is my unswerving belief in life, love and equality for all that allows spiritual strength.

Therefore, l stick to my view and wish blessings to all of you and l hope you all live a dharmic life, in peace.