posted August 16, 2006 06:32 PM            

*edited to add:
And yes, the reason I respond to ugly posts like the ones here are because I care about what is going on here, the same way I would respond if this conversation took place right in front of me in person.

Come to think of it, this is rather a dimensional level issue, no? Hmmm, something else to ponder ...

posted August 16, 2006 07:29 PM              

In this case when you make an outright statement that geologists ( I thought that geologists studied rocks, not people ) say that 90% of those who claim to be part Native American in fact, aren't, is not a presumption. It is a statement of fact and the source of that statement has yet to be presented here.

It would be insulting to anyone of any race or nationality to be asked to prove that they are what they say they are on just the basis that someone else doesn't believe them. That is the point here and as DD said, it may be more aimed at Pidaua for grudge reasons but what was said was directed at those who have Native American ancestry in general. It implies that only 10% of those who are a mix race of Native American and White are telling the truth.

I don't believe that any professional would make such a statement. Why would anyone claim to be something they are not or tell their children they are something they are not as is implied here? Why would my relatives claim to be Cherokee when in Okla. in my grandmother's time, and even when my mom was growing up there, Native Americans were discriminated against? In fact my mom told me that her dad used to tell her NOT to mention it to anyone. Being Native American only became something "neat" to be in the 60's and after. Not during my grandmother or my mom's time. The same thing applies to any of us here who are part Native American. As I stated before, even when I was a kid I was still called a "half breed" by some ignorant people. I am sure that in areas of certain states which have large populations of Native Americans they are still discriminated against for their race. Who would go around telling people they are part Native American knowing it might cause them to be discriminated against? It's the same as saying some people "choose" to be homosexual. Why would anyone choose to be something that they know will cause them to be discriminated against for?

The only thing that I know that anyone would need a tribal ID card or some proof of how much Native American they are is to apply for a government educational grant for Native Americans where you have to prove that you are at least 1/4 Native American in order to have the government pay for your education. In instances like that a person might check into it to find out exactly how much Native American blood they are by tracing their family lineage. Otherwise it is just not that important to most people. And as Lia said, no one's business.

posted August 16, 2006 09:16 PM            

I agree with you about obtaining the ID card. There are members in my family that have the cards, I do not. Some of my immediate family did get their cards, I wonder if to prove to certain bigots of their heritage.

I was raised in Southern California even though my parents are from the Southwest (Oklahoma / Kansas). I did not grow up on a reservation. I did not apply for federal grants or money based on my blood.

I had people ask my why I wouldn't use the government to pay for my college. I simply stated 'Because I have the money, I earned it and I will not take from people of my tribe that live on a reservation and are lucky to receive any money for college".

That was MY choice. I did it because I was raised in a family where we had the resources to live a good life. Why snatch it up from someone else?

What reinforced that was the time I have spent going back to the reservations to visit friends and family. Nothing hits you in the gut more than realizing the closer you get to the reservation (and I am only indicating TWO out here in AZ because those are the ones I visited most) and the increase in the number of beer cans and liquor bottles that litter the entry way.

People made being an American Indian cool - but they don't see the struggle with domestic violence, alcoholism or the health issues (diabetes, obesity and heart disease). To mention that at all makes some people so angry as though I am guilty of blasphemy of a God. People.. we are ALL just people. There is nothing more special about my blood than there is about the blood of a German, Jamacian, Asian or other person.

Like Mirandee said "people made it cool" but there is NOTHING cool about experiencing the racism that goes along with it. When I was young and living in Laguna I wouldn't admit to being American Indian because of the stigma. It wasn't until I experienced the FULL OUT wrath of bigots in Oregon and Washington that I made myself more active in my heritage. My brother laughed at me and said "it's about time you admit what you are and quit hiding behind the "Hispanic" thing only" I cried to my father about what I had experienced and he said 'That is why I worried about you moving up there, that is why we live where we do".

So no... being American Indian doesn't make someone "cool" or "enlightened" I have friends that practice the old ways and I have friends that have turned their back on it.

There is nothing cool about situations like this where TWO people want to make someone prove their blood. I have never heard of such a thing.

But everything for a reason and if anything it taught us a new form of bigotry like Zala said.

Zala,

I hope your son never has to deal with it. My brother had a similar experience. He has very strong features but very light skin (he's white like my mom) and green eyes. Someone had made a comment about Hispanics and American Indians being lazy and he told the guy to take it back. The guy made remark like "What the hell is your problem, you're white like me".

I think the next think the dude heard was his head hitting the floor. My brother said all he could think about was dad, grandma and me- he said he never realized what we had to deal with also having the color of skin.

I told him to get over it.. because I have a stay-fresh tan that never goes away hee hee...

posted August 17, 2006 11:34 PM              

I think your "supporters" are just you under other names.

You're making racist comments against "blood-thirsty" Indians, it is not "Okay," because your grandmother was not 1/32 Apache.

A REAL Indian would NEVER quote from a History book, because the were written by the WHITES.

I will let a REAL Indian speak. (Anthony Kiedis of the Red Hot Chili Peppers

"Your history books are full of sh*t
Im p*ssed at this
Apache blood is in my heart thrashing though me like a shark
Crashing though the dark
Testify testify kick a hole right in the sky
Slap a liar in his eye,
kick a hole right in the sky

I'm going to write Anthony Kiedis, so he can come to your house and slap you in the eye... Liar.

quote:

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But I have high cheek bones!

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So does Audry Hepburn, and it doesn't make her Indian.

Most indians do not have high cheekbones. That is only the Lacota Sioux, (The Indian on the Nickle.)

Stu-pida did not claim to be Sioux.

quote:

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Indians should be called Native Americans!

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Native Americans reject the term "Native American."

They find it annoying, the way most black people prefer to be called "Black" rather than "African American."

They call themselves "the people" or "Indian."

quote:

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Mexicans are Indians!

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My best friend is a Mexican, and I have been there many times. They are half Spanish and half Indian.

There is a lot of racism against Mexican Indians. Many Mexicans consider them to be of a lower class.

Their lighter skin shows that they are half-Spanish, and is a mark of pride. Call an Mexican an "Indian" and they will be insulted, because the word has come to mean "Dark skinned" or "Ugly."

Stupida is not a member of a federally recognized tribe. And therefore, NOT an Indian.

posted August 17, 2006 11:59 PM            

I think it's hilarious that you'd even suggest that Mexicans are insulted by their Indian heritage. I am part Mexican. My mother is full Mexican. I can assure you that neither she nor I, nor the extremely long list of extended relatives we have on her side of the family, are in the least offended by being referred to as an Indian or having Indian blood or features. Yes, we are part Spanish. Your point is what? That somehow being part Spanish "washes away" that "dirty" Indian blood? I don't know how you have the gall to suggest that being called an Indian "means" you are "dark skinned" or "ugly". How dare you suggest that having lighter skin is a mark of "pride"? Your ignorance and racism really knows no bounds. If there is anyone left here who does not clearly see you for the racist you are then I just don't know what to say.
Fortunately for you, I am not going to ask you to "prove" that your "best friend is a Mexican" or that you have been there many times. Not only would that be a stupid thing to ask but even if you could "prove" those things it wouldn't really mean you know anything about Mexicans. What a way to generalize you have! Hey, one of my best friends is Puerto Rican ... another one is Nicaraguan ... another is part Irish ... yada yada yada. So what? Does that make me some kind of authority on other people with a similar racial/ethnic background? Um, No. Hey, I've been to Taco Bell many times ... does that make me an expert on everything Taco Bell? Um, No.
Geez, what passes for logic for some people really boggles my mind.
And no ... "Mexicans" are not half Spanish and half Indian. Where would you even get such a ridiculous notion?
It's that I don't even understand how you can walk around so full of ignorant ideas and notions and still have the arrogance to behave the way you do.

Oh wait ... wait ... are you going to ask me to "prove" my Mexican heritage now? LMAO

WOW

posted August 18, 2006 12:08 AM              

I live on the Mexican border.

The racial tension between the two groups is very bad, there have been many outbreaks of violence.

http://sam11.moe.gov.sg/racialharmony/JC/articles_mexican.html

Many deaths.

You must be really out of touch not to know about this.

You may be 1/32 Mexican, but you need to actually GO TO MEXICO and witness FIRSTHAND, how badly they treat the Mexican Indians.

posted August 18, 2006 12:34 AM            

How do you know I haven't been to Mexico?
How do you know I don't still have family there ... and on the border?
How do you make assumptions like that?
And how do you hold your own ideas so highly above other people's heads like that? There are plenty of people who have never been to Mexico that I've known over the years who have a much better idea of Mexican life and culture than you have shown yourself to have here. There go your "requirements" again.

Here's a clue ... racial tensions pop up in alot of countries between various groups of people. Something you're not understanding is that one of the biggest factors in the tensions in Mexico is economic discrimination ... like it is in many parts of the world, as well.

Yes, it's a sad fact that "Indigenous" or "Indian" people across the world deal with a lot of racism. Who denied that? Yes, there are people who are ashamed of their Indian blood in Mexico ... who denied that?

I never said racial tensions didn't exist.

You said "many Mexicans consider Mexican Indians to be of a lower class" ... really? How many is many? Where do you get these figures from?

Yeah, maybe lighter skin is a mark of pride ... to a bunch of racists. That's nothing new. But Mexicans are not all racists.

You completely lump everyone into this one group you have defined in your head as something you understand and throw out blanket statements based on that.

Sadly, I don't even know if you have any idea what I'm talking about. Either you really are a total racist or you have no idea that you write in a way that gives that impression and would do well with a refresher course in basic writing.

posted August 18, 2006 12:42 AM              

You really don't know what you're talking about. I was raised here on the border, you're all the way in NC.

I went to Catholic school which was predominantly Mexican.

Two Mexican girls would get into an argument, invariably one of them would call the other "Indian!"

...the next thing you know they are rolling across the floor trying to rip each others hair out.

Meanwhile, I would have to jump behind a desk to get out of the way.

I also saw how they picked on other girls for being "Dark." And made them social outcasts.

My mexican friends own mother protested because her son brought home a girlfriend she thought was "too dark," and told him not to marry her!

She started calling this girl "The Indian" and was so rude to her, she eventually broke off the relationship.

She said she didn't want her grandchildren to come out with dark skin. And this was a Mexican woman!

Eventually her son brought home a light enough girl she approved of and they got married.

posted August 18, 2006 01:00 AM            

I never said that there weren't Mexicans who are racist ... I'm saying that not all Mexicans are "anti-Indian" like you would have everyone here believe.

Maybe you were unaware of this but the majority of those kinds of tensions exist primarily along the border ... mainly because of the discrimination that a lot of Mexicans have endured from Americans over the years. There are second and even third generation Mexican Americans who do feel ashamed of their Indian heritage because they were raised in an environment where being Mexican or being Indian was looked down upon. Same thing happened with a lot of Black Americans back in the day. Same thing happens in a lot of countries when people are immigrants in that country and are discriminated against.

That's not what I'm talking about ...

You're painting a picture that portrays all or most Mexicans as being ashamed of their Indian heritage ... and that is an outright lie.

Your personal life experiences don't make you an automatic expert on anything but your own life, if even that.

What are you even trying to prove by attempting to misrepresent Mexicans here?

posted August 18, 2006 01:11 AM              

I haven't misrepresented crap. I am telling my first hand accounts.

posted August 18, 2006 01:39 AM            

LeylaLeFay

I'm not calling you a liar ... as in suggesting that you tell lies or that you lie repeatedly ....

But if you are seriously trying to tell us that all or the majority of Mexicans are racist against other Mexicans who are fully/mostly Indian or who have very distinguished Indian features ... then I would have to say that you are, in fact, spreading a lie, whether on purpose or through your own ignorance.

Is that clear enough?

posted August 18, 2006 01:44 AM              

I have a funny story about my roommate. She did the opposite!

She was an America-born Mexican, but identified herself as "Indian" when talking to white people. I guess she did this because it was less of a stigma.

As you can imagine, this really freaked her mother out. (The same mother who ran off her sons g/f for being "too Indian.")

My roommate went so far in her "Indian" disguise that she refused to speak Spanish, or eat any spicy foods!

She put posters of famous Indians up in her bedroom.

She even married a white boy. (Her mother is excited about how "light" the babies will be, of course.)

I am betting that her grandchildren will be raised to believe they have an "Indian" grandmother.

posted August 18, 2006 07:35 AM            

I have several friends who live in Mexico City, and have visited there several times and I have to say in my experience, and from what my friends have told me having lived there their entire lives, that there is totally discrimination based on skin color there. NOT based on Native-American features per se, but definitely skin color.

I've seen people gawk at a person of African descent as if a chupacabra were walking down the street. You don't see dark-skinned Mexicans in the nice malls, the nice movie theatres, the coffee shopps, etc. You don't even see them working there.

I have only been to Cancun and Mexico City, and my friends are from Maztlan, Mexico City and Morelia - so I guess I couldn't reasonably say that racism is sewn into the fabric of Mexican society on a whole (although actually my Mexican friends claim that is the case), but I've witnessed it myself in Cancun and Mexico City, and have friends who live there who claim it's pretty rampant.

posted August 18, 2006 10:45 AM            

That would be like me saying all Americans are racist against people of darker skin tones. Yes, there are people, perhaps many, in America who are racist that way. There are countless examples from history to prove it. However, I would not have the gall to suggest that just because that's how some people are and just because that's what I've experienced in my personal life that everybody in America must be that way.

Thanks for understanding and having the courtesy to not generalize and lump all Mexicans into one category.

******

There are places in Mexico where you find a majority of white skinned/light skinned people. And yes, there are some who feel some kind of superiority for their Spanish heritage. I never said that was a lie ...

Most of my family members (on my mom's side) are darker skinned Mexicans ... some still live in tiny rural towns, others in cities and some here in the US. Yes, they have experienced racial discrimination based on dark skin tones and/or Indian features ... but it isn't soley a Mexican against Mexican thing. A lot of the discrimination comes from being immigrants here, too, or from the racial tensions on the border. Ie, it's hard for some Mexicans not to take offense or feel inferior in some way when the loudest opinion about immigration is that they need to stop "those people from crossing our border" ... there is and has been a lot of negative and/or racist jokes regarding Mexicans from this country from people of many different ethnicities. (I understand that they're jokes and I'm not all about being overly PC ... I'm just saying that things like that can't be said over and over without some people taking them personally; not trying to hold comedians responsible for racial tensions or anything absurd like that. And, no, I am not one of those people that advocates a free border crossing for any and all before someone turns this into a "why we need immigration laws" thread, too.)

My mom was raised to be proud of her heritage ... both the Indian and Spanish.

Growing up in Miami, with tons of immigrants from various "latin or hispanic American" countries, I'm pretty well aware of the discrimination against darker skinned people. People from one country will put-down people from others or even from their own, yada yada yada ... but darker skinned people always got the worst of the lot. Yes, I've heard people from many different countries be referred to as Indians as though that's an insult. But just because I've heard alot of Columbians, Venezuelans, Nicaraguens, Argentinians, Ecuadorians, Hondurans, Cubans, etc. make such horrible comments to people I would not even dream of suggesting that all or most of the people in those countries must be racists.

But whatever. If some people here insist on thinking that all Mexicans (or any other people from a foreign country) are racists or that it's okay to generalize people so awfully then there's nothing I can say that will change that. <sigh>

******

DayDreamer
?

posted August 18, 2006 11:16 AM            

quote:

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Native Americans reject the term "Native American."

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Which American Indians have you been talking to? Because all my friends who are of Native descent resent the term "Indian". If you had actually listened in History Class instead of twirling around your hair at the boys you would know that "Indian" was the term wrongly given to the Natives by Christopher Columbus because he insisted that he landed on some undiscovered part of Asia.

quote:

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They find it annoying, the way most black people prefer to be called "Black" rather than "African American."

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Yeah, because all black people are African American

posted August 18, 2006 12:02 PM            

Someone has been off her medication. Please find where I said my grandmother was 1/32 Apache. I said she was FULL BLOOD CHIRICAHUA.

Find where I said American Indians are BLOOD THIRSTY...

Holy Cow.. someone is truly Koo Koo and needs a vast amount of psycho therapy.

Yes, I somehow created all these usernames, all from different parts of the world and US and I fly from place to place through a tractor beam so that I can post lots of differing opinions.

I am really cracking up on that one.

Well LeyLa, your complete unraveling and racism is NOT a surprise. You have the brain of a 5 year old without any of the charm.

Get help fast... or soon you'll start to see the little green men at your door.

BTW, get a grip on what you really are. First you talked about being from LA and living there and now all of a sudden you live on the Mexican border?

With an attitude like yours and your racist remarks I am amazed you haven't had your a$$ beat. Most of my Mexican friends wouldn't have tolerated your BS at all.

Oh yeah.. and I live on the border- 5 miles North of Naco, 30 miles from Agua Prieta and about 45 miles from Nogales.

I haven't encountered racism from the other side. They work with us, shop with us and the only time there is a huge issue is when illegals come over and kills animals / cut fenceline or steal clothes.

If you try to tell me that crap does happen I will post about a ton of articles to prove it.

Did you find your way to Southern Texas? El Paso maybe... Harlingen... ?

You're a funny little mental case, that seems to be the expert on African Americans, Mexican's, Causasions, Native Americans, Spaniards... are you a cultural studies major or just one big story teller?

posted August 18, 2006 01:25 PM            

An accusation has been made. Please provide these quotes. Perhaps someone could use a lesson from jwhop or AG on how to back up allegations with FACTS (somebody's facts ). We all express our opinions and share our personal experiences here at LL. Extrapolating [def: to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area] those personal experiences to include ALL or even some ambiguous "many" of the members of any group is folly, as you may have noticed.....

And Leyla,

quote:

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Eleanore –
You really don't know what you're talking about. I was raised here on the border, you're all the way in NC.

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posted August 18, 2006 04:36 PM            

I mean, a perfect example are my friends who live there...they are not racist and in fact it really angers them the racism that does exist in Mexican society. So no, not all Mexican's are racist.

posted August 18, 2006 04:39 PM            

quote:

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Hey, even up here by the North Pole in Minnesota we get *some* news from time to time

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posted August 18, 2006 04:47 PM            

LeylaLeFay
I don't believe you actually went back and changed your post's content to make it look like you were saying something different!

quote:

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I never said there was racism everywhere. But there is a lot of it here on the border, and in Mexico. Come on over and see for yourself.

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That right there was not in your original post and you only added it after you were caught in your lie. Instead of being a mature individual and making another post after everyone else called you on it ... you actually had the nerve to go back and change your original post and thus make everyone else's posts seem out of context and as though you were being called on something you didn't do ... thus making it look as though we're the ones lying instead of you. Unbelievable. Do you do this often? Nevermind, don't answer ... I wouldn't believe it now anyway.

You did it in an earlier post, too, when you went back and added that you were

quote:

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raised here on the border, you're all the way in NC

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You are unreal. There are few people I've come across here that are that passive aggressive and in denial. And your lack of integrity is simply appalling.