posted August 05, 2006 01:32 PM         

I dont think it is a loving act to call
someone "revolting" or "disgusting",
and certainly not to shout it in capital letters.
Is that love?
Does that teach love and tolerance?

Who is in denial?

If someone says they are not in favor of mass-murder,
then, regardless of what I think I heard them say,
I would suspect there was a misunderstanding.
And I would seek to understand,
before passing such unflattering judgments.
Perhaps they merely see a distinction between the sinner and the sin.

posted August 05, 2006 02:06 PM         

Fayte, I don't like it that you used my words of love to make your point in an attack on Steve.

posted August 05, 2006 02:19 PM         

I am intrigued, amused and delighted to read your recent posts.

To claim ones own perspective as Spiritual superiority is indeed intriguing!

To see one assume and infer anothers Spiritual State and Station is amusing.

I am always delighted to see anothers perspective. You have told it like it REALLY is....

Why would anyone think you arrogant???

Blessings on your journey!

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted August 05, 2006 02:29 PM         

"Evil is a means God uses,
because evil exists, and all is of God.
But Evil is not His end."

posted August 05, 2006 02:44 PM         

it's amazing!

posted August 05, 2006 04:34 PM         

PS.MM..
Quote:
My intention was to gently indicate to him that he may have been less than gentle with you, which I considered out of character for him. I thought he might have been having a bad couple days.

>>>Thank you for that. That is what was/is weirding me out here. The out of character for him.
HSC, You were never arrogant nor condencending to others before. You never painted yourself as perfect and sinless before. You have had good days and bad days.
I could often relate to where you were coming from. But not here. The HSC I see here is not the same guy I had grown to respect and like alot.
So yes...I was worried about you.
Nuff said.
I feel I am just wasting time.
I cared.
So slap me.

posted August 05, 2006 09:02 PM         

I appreciate your concern, and I was not lumping you in with anybody. But I felt misunderstood, by both you and fayte (respectively), and it hurt to hear you refer to me as "snarling". It is a mystery to me how anyone got this impression. Forgive me for saying what I think, but I think sometimes people just take it as a personal insult when you tell them they are wrong.

The issue of what is and is not divinely inspired is complicated. There are degrees, as in all things. At bottom, all things are the work of God, but not all works are seen to shine in a human eye. If we had eyes to see, love would shine through all. But, for convenience sake, we say that only that which shines clearly to us is divine. I take a different view of "evil" than most. I do not believe evil is created or perpetuated, but, that it is something which lurks in the shadows, and is only apparent when it is being exorcized. Something happens, and we say, "That is bad," but, really, it is nothing new; it is merely a symptom of something which has always been, and it only now comes to the surface because the soul who bears it is begining to detox. We think they are falling sick, but they were always sick. They are getting well. Sometimes, things need to get "worse" before they can get better. This doesnt mean that we should commit atrocities because we would get better thereby. But, if we did so, it would not be on account of any wrong teaching, but, on account of the evil that already exists, and clouds our reception to the truth. This is all I was trying to say.

fayte -

I never claimed to be perfect. If you have a point, please try to make it without distorting my own words in order to do so. I believe I am right about this one thing; that all is one; all is God. I am far from perfect, but I know this much. I dont know why you would think that I have done such a "180" here, and am being cruel, just because I refuse to relinquish my position on this. You are free to disagree with me. And I am free to believe that you are mistaken in doing so, just as I am free to say so in no uncertain terms. I have not lost my compassion and empathy for you. But I believe you are wrong. I hope you will not consider me an enemy on account of this. I do not wish to make enemies. I wish to make friends of everyone. At the same time, I am not willing to pay lip service to views which I believe to be false, in order to keep the peace. I hope that is acceptable to you, but, if it is not, I will not take it personally, and I will not lose sleep.

juniperb -

I cannot tell if you are being sincere or sarcastic. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere. In any case, I would like you to know that I do not consider myself spiritually superior just because I have been put in a position to perceive a truth which others have not. I may suggest that a fool despises instruction, but I do not believe that a "fool" is inferior to a wise man; a "fool" is simply one who stands in an inferior position. Everyone is a fool in some matter, and compared to someone (in that matter). I myself am an incredible fool in many respects. It is a question of perspective. A person standing on a hilltop is not superior to the people standing in a valley, but he can indeed see farther. Evidently, some feel the need to see me as arrogant unless I suggest that a person standing in a valley can see just as far, if not farther, than a person standing on a hilltop? This is a pity. And it is my loss, as well as theirs, for every person's ignorance diminishes me.

Mannu -

I always appreciate your efforts to mediate and seek mutual understanding. If this confusion is indeed a question of semantics, it is more mysterious than I can fathom. I can only suggest that, whether or not one thinks one is established in the supreme truth, all is one. Two is an illusion. Not being established is an illusion. But who can understand the subtlety of this?

lotusheartone -

I love you no more than anyone else,
but I render you a special "thank you"
for your gentle words and understanding.

posted August 05, 2006 10:28 PM         

And I wasn't mediating. Just sharing my opinion as on any other posts. Well you ain't God ( from a place where you see things as they really are and not what it appears to be) so you won't know my intentions correct (just kidding)

posted August 06, 2006 12:50 AM         

My first post here was not in a spirit of argumentativeness. It was from a spirit of humble pondering that the quotes inspired.
If the title of this thread had been "What is a good (or comforting) consolation in suffering and distress?", instead of "What is the best consolation in suffering and distress?", I would have been inspired to ponder differently. At the time, I had thought your intent in posting the quotes was a nice guesture, Steve. I was able to see (personally from my own seeing)some truth to them. Although not an ulitimate truth. Thankfully, I haven't yet found an Ultimate Truth, nor do I believe it is possible, for truth, like Time, is relative, although Truth is always my most fervent and passionate quest. I am always present in the quest, happy with the quest, thankful for the quest. I don't think I would be as happy with an Ultimate Destination (dead end). I like the journeying.

Like, (I think it was) juniperb and Mystic Melody said, I believe there is a divine ground (perrenial truth)in most religious doctrine, but also untruths as well. I discern, jumble and let what feels right to me settle within me. It's a personal thing to me (as with everyone). No one's truth is the same, so therefore it's important in these kinds of debates or offerings to be respectful of other's abilities to discern and jumble and see the Truth from their own Eyes of Seeing.
Like don Juan, for instance. Some of his statements feel very true to me, some feel alien and not right to me. It's a wordless feeling...the discerning of truth. Not something to be described intellectually, for it would surely fail it.
It's a knowing. But it's only MY knowing, that I wouldn't think of expecting anyone else to adhere to or even understand.
In fact, if someone tells me "this is the Ultimate Truth", my first instinct is to feel that than surely it is Not. (for Truth doesn't proclaim itself-- it just is--like God, it's a beautiful hope~just how I see it).

Just as you once told me, Steve, the moment you proclaim yourself as innocent/pure is the moment that the exclamation in itself corrupts your purity,
the same for the moment that you proclaim knowledge; the moment of exclamation is the moment when knowledge becomes "ignorance" (surrounded by quotations because it is a word that I find very disrespectful to refer to anyone as.)

Enlightenment has many mistaken connotations as a word. I try not to ever use it, only because it can be so easily misconstrued.
But mainly because to say one has become "enlightened" seems a closing. As if you've reached a summit of knowing. That in itself, entirely misses the meaning (at least it seems to me) of enlightenment, of which is a state of ongoing alert awareness which remains open to future potential understandings which are ever unraveling and yet presently unknown.

That said, if you would respect your right to speak directly and not sugar coat...and realize your propensity to admire men and women who state their mind, over ones who would agree just to please, then hope you would respect other's rights to speak directly to you as well. Because to favor your adulators is to entirley contridict this, making it ok for you to do so, but not for others to do so with you.

You once helped me see myself...called me up on my actions. I appreciated it, even if it perturbed me a bit (being honest).
Hope you can understand, Steve, and differentiate what is from caring and what is from malice.

posted August 06, 2006 03:43 AM         

Mannu
You inspire me often. I love the gentle calmness of your soul.

Lia
You know how I feel about you. We have shared much.

NAMASTE all.
Nite nite.

posted August 06, 2006 08:33 AM         

on the Earth plane One became two actual human beings..the other half of you..
when I converse with my overSoul..my othere half is there, by my side..I converse with both equally..separation is an illusion..we are together in SoulSpirit in Heaven, overwatching this mess..that we have made..

well..we made a promise for tomorrow..to Re-Member, and heal all the hurts and pains..

When you know something, you just do. ...

Heart--Shaped Cross..always speak your Mind and Heart..and don't let others bring doubts or fears, into your knowing..the affirmations always come to show the way...
sHine brightly..

posted August 06, 2006 11:46 AM         

You expressed yourself very well.
I know you come from a good place,
and it seems you were especially centered,
when you wrote this.
Thank you for your care.

I think there is a great deal to be said for honoring the journey, but I also believe there is an ultimate truth, which is Oneness. I do not say that this truth is a typical destination, but, that it is something, the full understanding of which may never be acheived. It is something we continue to learn. It is a bottomless well of wisdom, which may be penetrated for an eternity, and never entirely plumbed. In fact, it may even be that, the less we try to understand it, the more completely it may enter into our awareness, for it is not a mental construct, but an immutable law of nature, which reveals itself wherever it is not looked for, and not concealed by superficial, superimposed belief systems.

In a perfect world, I would love to respect everyone's ability to see in their own way. But, I am assured by my experience and inner knowing that not everyone possesses an equal degree of insight into the nature of things. Inequality is something we must come to terms with, and not deny for the sake of stroking our and others' egos.

I am indeed foolish if I expect others to adhere to or understand my knowing. Expectations are not wise, and I make a mistake, when I expect not to encounter opposition to my attempts to reveal and persuade. But I do have hope. Perhaps that is also foolish. Perhaps I ought to speak from some present ground, without any eye to the consequences. I think that would be ideal, but it is an understanding which I am far from (or far too close to). I can handle the disappointment I feel, when my views are rejected, but what is very difficult to tolerate, is the accusations of arrogance and cruelty. Believing something to be true is not arrogance. Arrogance is an attitude which stems from crediting oneself for some supposedly self-chosen virtue, which others have supposedly chosen to distain. My view utterly excludes the possibility of arrogance, for it assigns all credit to God, and, if I even for an instant credit myself for having perceived it, it is clear that I do not perceive it at all. If others assume that the honor I accord to this perspective (which I cannot literally call my own) is an honor I accord to myself, then they have misunderstood me, on account of "their" point of view, which insists upon the existence of personal virtue, and ends in crediting oneself for every insight gained. I recognize that we all have different points of view, and every point of view is valid, as far as it can see. But, I merely point out that even this relativity has stipulations. Again, the point of view of one standing in a dark hole, who cannot see past the end of their own nose, is a valid point of view, as far as it goes, but it is mistaken when it pressumes that the end of its nose is the end of the universe.

One must consider that one's perspective is not one's own, but is granted from a higher source. Believing that one has chosen one's point of view, based on one's previous point of view, which was also chosen based on an even more previous point of view, ad infinitum, is patently absurd. It does not accord with logic, and it certainly does not accord with a sense of intuition which is attuned to the presence of anything greater than oneself.

I disagree that truth is never proclaimed, and that, if someone believes they have perceived truth, they are categorically mistaken. That sounds like an indefensible position, in any case, as it's instictual refusal to accept any conviction is based on a conviction of its own. Such instinctive reactions are, in my experience, rarely the signals of a sensitive intuition, and more often the fight-or-flight responses of an ego, fearful of being challenged. Prophets, mystics, great religious figures, have always spoken "as ones with authority", and refused to season their strong convictions with doubts and misgivings in order to make them palatable to a wary public.

I do not proclaim MYSELF innocent and pure, or suggest that the truth I perceive is MY OWN, and this is why it is not categorically impure and untrue. Knowledge exists, and, so, conversely, does ignorance. I'm sorry this word makes you squeemish. I dont know a euphemism for it, and am not willing to abandon its use just for that reason. I do not mean for it to be disrepectful, but, I cannot help it if light has a rather stubborn tendency to cast a shadow. Truth is not always sympathetic to our established druthers, and I think it is a dangerous method to judge the truth of a thing by whether or not it feels good, and further supports one's present comfort zone.

I dont know how the word enlightenment came up. I dont remember using it, and would not have even considered using it in reference to myself. I spoke of having reached a summit, yes, but not "the summit". Even if I thought that I could survey the earth (that it is not flat), I was still careful to confess my ignorance of the cosmos. We are all students, of course. But some of us have graduated from grades in which others still find themselves struggling (or complacent), and, so, can serve as teachers and provacators to them, even if we also have teachers of our own. I am sympathetic to your dillemma, when you find it distasteful to consider that someone may be more advanced than yourself in some regard. But a teacher is not disrepectful when he contradicts an unwilling student, however it may appear to the student.

Having an open mind, or, being open to future revelations, does not mean that we should have a mind like a sieve. One must secure a foothold, before one can reach the next plane.

I respect another's right to speak directly to me. I have not judged anyone on account of the accusations they have made against me. I have merely sought to defend my position with reason, to disprove the suspicion (or untimely conviction) that my position is founded on malice and arrogance.

Nor do I favor my adulators. I made a very clear point in adressing lotusheartone, when I said that I love her no more than anyone else. I discourage assaults, and I encourage those who would come to my defense. This is not to favor myself, or any individual, but to favor the cause of the truth I see, and those who would help me to proclaim it. Indeed, if you look closely, you will see that I give the vast majority of my attention to those with whom I disagree, for it is their edification I seek.

hsc

posted August 06, 2006 12:00 PM         

adulation for all those here seeking the source of love.

------------------
How many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?

Yes, 'n how many years can some people exist
Before theyre allowed to be free?

Yes, 'n how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesnt see?

The answer, my friend, is blowin in the wind,
The answer is blowin in the wind.

posted August 06, 2006 12:46 PM         

I believe that God works with us on an individual basis through all our life experiences, and it is through those experiences that we best come to know God, not in what we read or learn or just in what in we think. Just as it is said that God created man in his own image, man also tends to create God in their own image. God is involved in a personal, loving, unique relationship with each of us. Not out there somewhere distant but involved with each of us in a loving relationship, ever present in our lives and ever helping us through all the imperfect world throws at us.

I agree with Lia in that we all have our own ways of dealing with suffering. Mainly because we all have our own unique spiritual journies and experiences. Keep in mind that those who speak of joy in suffering such as Paul were saints and on a much higher spirtual plane than most of us have obtained. At least most of us who admit we are human and imperfect.

Since all the truly great spiritual people throughout history, the prophets and wise men and those like Mother Teresa of Calcutta, all the aspostles of Jesus and all the named saints would never, ever say they had reached any once and for all known truth about God or who would never say they were anything but imperfect, we can just assume that anyone who DOES say those things or place themselves on any higher spiritual level than others is as Paul said, " a clanging gong and a clashing cymbal."