posted July 31, 2006 08:29 PM         

All things are the will of God. Were it conceivable to stray from the path, one might stray by thinking, "I have strayed," or, "He or she has strayed," but, we may well thank divine providence that no such thing is possible. The almighty directs all our steps, though we may imagine ourselves alternately clumsy and adroit. He leads us heavenward by mysterious channels, and where the path zigs or zags, and we seem to turn toward, or away from the summit, still, we follow the shortest route a soul may take. Discover the truth of this, and you are saved. Cast away your compass, trust in his ways, and you shall never dream of straying. For, whosoever understands that all things are the will of God, can suffer no blame. If you do appear to sin, know that this is the will of God, and you shall suffer no reproach. But, if you should reproach yourself, simply return to the contemplation of this truth; know that your reproach is also the will of God, - and you shall not reproach yourself for reproaching yourself!

"If you believe... that you lack both devotion and serious intent and that, not having devotion or serious intent, you do not have God, and if you then grieve over this, this itself becomes your devotion and serious intent. Therefore you should not confine yourself to just one manner of devotion, since God is to be found in no particular way, neither this one nor that. That is why they do him wrong who take God in just one particular way. They take the way rather than God."
- Meister Eckhart

This is the greatest, perhaps the only, truth. Know and receive God's Will in all things, and you shall know and receive the Acceptance of all things. Knowing Acceptance, you will know Trust. Trusting, you will enter into the Kingdom of Peace, whose law is Perfect Trust, and whose sovereign is The Love Divine.

hsc

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'Would you know your Lord's meaning in this thing? Know it well. Love was his meaning. Who showed it to you? Love. What did he show you? Love. Why did he show it? For love. Keep yourself therein and you shall know and understand more in the same. But you shall never know nor understand any other thing, forever.'
- Julian of Norwich

posted August 01, 2006 12:43 AM         

There's a chance you take in living.
Living amongst the godless,
or those who believe they are gods. Perhaps struck by the moments of another's loss of God or over-elation of Self.
Receiving that which isn't of God's will, for these are things God would not hope for us.

The sentiments, seem more designed for the sinner. Could such words truly console the wearied heart of the receiver?

Or is it stressing that because All is of God, then there is no sin?

I believe we all play our part.
And that, even for innocence,choosing to play at all is a risk; is a part.

I think that every man's intention can easily be misunderstood, if taken on surface substance, that doesn't tell the deeper tale of every breath that brought his journey to the moment.
Who could be blamed for evolving moments?
But...what I guess I'm trying to say is...
consolation is its own journey.
For me, found more from the acceptance of one's own beautiful potential, as God's child, and other's beautiful potential, as God's children, then acceptance of God's will.
God hopes, God aspires, God inspires...
ultmately the awareness of God's Purest Hope for us, through inflictions and sufferings is what consoles me to keep believing.

posted August 02, 2006 10:45 AM         

Yes, I am indeed saying that, since all is God, there can be no sin. If there were sin,
it could not be the fault of the fruit (man), but the tree (God). But, since "sin" is defined as fault, it cannot be attributed to man. To love, forgive, and accept the sinner, in its deepest sense, is to love, forgive, and accept God, and the sin that is in God. For all things are in God. You can neither blame nor forgive the man, without blaming and forgiving the maker.

The perspective I take is that all things happen according to the will of God. For me, the concept of God has real value only when God is defined as "all that is". If God is seen only as a part of existence, or as "that which is good" (presuming one does not conclude that "all is good"), then, an entire portion of our experience is rejected and demonized, and this creates, or perpetuates, conflict. "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

I would suggest to you that, if cruelty exists at all, it exists in God. To defend God by denying a part of his creation is, to me, not a true defense of God. God must be accepted, "warts and all", or not at all.

The book of Job shows a man insisting upon his innocence, and upon the absurd cruelty of the Lord. The book proceeds to present the arguments of many self-proclaimed defenders of God, who accuse Job of being guilty, deserving of the suffering brought upon him, and responsible for have brought it upon himself. They simply refuse to believe in a God who could be so cruel. Job tells them that they thereby reject the true God, and raise up a half-god in his place, entirely suited to their personal desires. Job says, if we are to accept God, we must accept him as the creator of strife and suffering, as well as peace and joy. "Man cannot live by bread alone [- i.e. by only that which he deems good -], but by EVERY word which proceeds out of the mouth of God." Job says, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him,". Job honors God, not because God is good, but because God is God, and, to reject "that which is", is absurd, and leads only to further suffering.

Most, if not all, spiritual utterances have this intention as their begining and end; that we might accept all things as being from God. This is the only way to achieve a perception of unity, and to make our ultimate peace. When Jesus receives the "sinners", as well as the "righteous", he is receiving the "sins" of God, as well as the "righteousness". He makes no distinction, but loves all things, not because they are good, but simply because they are. Every bit of the law must be approved, and all that occurs is according to the law, for that is the meaning of the law. Who abides by all things, and receives all things, is in right relation to God. We cannot take a part of God. We must take all of him, for "a man cannot serve two masters".

This is why Jesus is depicted hanging from a cross, and not sun-bathing on a lounge chair with iced tea in hand. His arms are spread to receive all things, his hands are open even to nails. This is why he represents the man who truly loves and receives all of God. This is why he is called the first man; as Pilate says, "Ecce Homo" (Behold, The Man). He is one who has realized in himself the destiny of a man, which is to receive all things as belonging to God.

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

hsc

posted August 02, 2006 11:27 AM         

I understand your objections.

But, releasing ourselves from guilt, is not a cop-out. It is a freedom that permits us to follow our true nature, which is to love. You cannot force yourself to love, you can only remove the obstacles to love. The greatest of these is the belief in one's guilt. Guilt creates stress. A stressed person seeks his own comfort. Releasing guilt releases stress. A person who is not stressed does not seek comfort, and is not complacent, but, naturally seeks and assumes responsibility for others. Furthermore, guilt is a self-fulfilling prophecy. One thinks, "I am bad," and then one reglects one's impulses to be good, and thinks nothing of being bad. Indeed, one often punishes oneself by committing offenses, and refusing to allow oneself to be/do good.

Look at me. This philosophy of mine has not produced in me a desire to play video games all day. Rather, I give love to everyone I come in contact with. Why? Because I feel responsible? Compelled? Guilty if I don't? No. I do it because I feel love. Because I genuinely love people and WANT to share love with them. If I were stressed and acting under compulsion, choice, or "free will", that would be fake, forced, and would only lead me to resent God, myself, and others for depleting me of the energies I can scarcely afford to give. Because I am not acting in response to the misguided dictates of a tyranical "conscience", but, freely, in response to the love I feel and desire to share, my love is true, and multiplies, and nourishes my relationship with God, myself, and others.

It is your nature to love.
Cease to bully yourself and others into loving,
and love will flow freely and abundantly from you and yours.

hsc

posted August 02, 2006 12:45 PM         

God`s Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

My Faith stands on that.

If we sit on our duffs whining that it`s all Gods way so why try, then we do a diservice to our Potential and disrepct to God.

To act at all times as tho we have Free Will,Knowing that God will Guide us in all attempts, and be thankful for all experiences, it will release ego suffering.

It`s not pass or fail but rather Submitting to the Divinity within each one of us.

Freeze all nafs/ego and suffering ends, yes?

IMHO

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted August 02, 2006 06:28 PM         

Imagine God as a witness to all of these things. You will say god is aloof and cold by that last statement. Even that will not affect God.

The soul of God is the active entity or subtle energy that some wud say. It is that soul that dances ever between chaos and order. We are all a part of the supreme soul. When enlightened beings speaks of "I", they are still referring to the eternal All. Drop of water is no different than ocean. A fruit cannot say I am the tree unless it falls on the ground and becomes another tree.

Likewise, we have to resurrect, put our ego at rest and awaken our divine self to call ourselves son of God.

When you do a mistake your conscious warned you and yet you still went ahead and did that thing that you were not supposed to do. All mistakes one must attribute to oneself. God does not want us to perish. He wants us to have faith and let him run the show. By total submission to him.

You dance because there is this chaos within you. Let it come out. You will find your grove when you do.

You love because ur being within wants to express itself. Let it come out. You will find peace. When you are angry, do not let it come out

posted August 03, 2006 01:26 PM         

Please, do not misunderstand me.

Just because all is God's will, and we are not ultimately responsible for being such as we are, does not automatically imply that we should use this knowledge to live an amoral (for there is no "immoral") life. I dont think that way, even if some people do. If knowing that all is God's will would lead you to abandon your good intentions and good actions, then, by all means, fear this knowledge, guard your ignorance, and speak for yourself. If this is the case, then your goodness is not real goodness anyway.

For my part, I take a mature view of this wisdom, and am good because I respect goodness, and enjoy being good, not because I feel responsible or guilty if I am not good.

When Paul said, in his epistle to the Romans, "[If I do that thing which I know to be evil, it is no longer I who does it, but sin, which dwelleth in my flesh, working through me. Therefore, I identify myself with the Spirit, and with Christ, the inner man, who is perfect,]" he was not copping out. He was stating a fundamental spiritual truth. He was not abandoning the terrestrial "Law of Moses" by acknowledging the ultimate, transcendant supremacy of Grace, and the "Law of Christ".

All is God's will. This is true, regardless of whether you would use this knowledge for good or evil. In a sense, you are only now truly free to choose as you will. How you respond to this truth is no reflection upon its validity. If you hear this truth, and immediately fear it, as something which would incline you to sin with impunity, then, that is reflection, not upon my own motives for becoming aware of this truth, but, of your own dirty mind, which evidently sees in this view an opportunity to sin with impunity.

I hear this truth, and seek to maturely detach myself from the consequences, blame, and credit for my actions, but I do not use it as an excuse to cease to do good.

If you need to force yourself to do good, then that is your problem. I still believe you would catch more flies with honey. I myself find goodness sweet, and am good because I enjoy it, and am gradually falling in love with it.

That is all I have to say, and I will not comment on this topic further. If you cannot understand this, I cannot make it clearer to you. I can only feel sorry for you.

hsc

------------------
'Would you know your Lord's meaning in this thing? Know it well. Love was his meaning. Who showed it to you? Love. What did he show you? Love. Why did he show it? For love. Keep yourself therein and you shall know and understand more in the same. But you shall never know nor understand any other thing, forever.'
- Julian of Norwich

posted August 03, 2006 02:29 PM         

Everything is Gods will? Sure it is. Who do you think tested Job? What is the greatest commandment? Isn't it "Lord thy God is one".

Who said in the OT "If the spirit of God be taken even for a minute we wud turn in to dust that instant?"

In genesis we read God created animal, the forms? But who gave the liberty to man to name these animals that he created? Do you see how the two operates?

Who and why, taught us to pray daily "Do not lead us to temptation? But deliver us from Evil"

HSC, I hear you. Krishna told Arjun leave the consequence to me and kill your uncle.
Of all deities krishna represents the supreme I to make that bold statement. We are all included in it.

When his uncle did not prevent his daughter to be humiliated in the court, Krishna wanted him to die?

I think its not fair to discuss such spirtitual things in one liners. So I better stop.

Cheers.

posted August 03, 2006 03:50 PM         

quote:

---

I hear this truth, and seek to maturely detach myself from the consequences, blame, and credit for my actions...

---

If I called you an azz for that statement, who would I blame? God? If I praised you for the statement who would I give credit to? God?

I am responsible for my actions & thoughts and any consequences are all mine...

quote:

---

I can only feel sorry for you.

---

We may disagree HSC but I will never feel sorry for you. You appear as Joyous in your Faith as I am in mine and that is glorious my Friend!

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted August 03, 2006 06:02 PM         

quote:

---

He was not abandoning the terrestrial "Law of Moses" by acknowledging the ultimate, transcendant supremacy of Grace, and the "Law of Christ".

---

Now if you wish to discuss Pauline Doctrine, thats another discussion all together.( and I`m game)

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted August 04, 2006 02:16 AM         

I was going to argue with you on this one until I re-read it (back when you first posted it). When I re-read it, I saw that it basically said that once you give your life to God, you should trust that everything is God's Will, even if things seem to be going wrong.
It doesn't mean that when a guy abducts a tiny girl and then rams himself into her until her flesh tears apart and her uterus bursts that this is "All God's Will."
I think this is where the miscommunication lies between both sides here.

Where there is a lack of God, there is a lack of God. But...

"Where there is Faith
There is Love

Where there is Love
There is Peace

Where there is Peace
There is God

Where there is God
There is no need."

*

~had to go pull that off of my bathroom wall to make sure I got it right.

*

Would someone feel sorry for me, please? hehe I don't mind the occassional pity party. Especially if there's cake. Or brownies even.

"Quick! Bring me something deep fried and smothered in chocolate!!!"

~F.G. (Shrek)

posted August 04, 2006 03:15 AM         

child of god.

(i'm makin fresh homemade brownies tomorrow...just for you )

posted August 04, 2006 10:35 AM         

quote:

---

When Paul said, in his epistle to the Romans, "[If I do that thing which I know to be evil, it is no longer I who does it, but sin, which dwelleth in my flesh, working through me. Therefore, I identify myself with the Spirit, and with Christ, the inner man, who is perfect,]" he was not copping out. He was stating a fundamental spiritual truth. He was not abandoning the terrestrial "Law of Moses" by acknowledging the ultimate, transcendant supremacy of Grace, and the "Law of Christ".

---

Oh, that's a good quote, HSC! And a rarely seen one too. Generally one hears "not me, but Christ in me". This is the opposite end of the spectrum and not quite as palatable for most, is it? (Possibly a misunderstanding of Paul's idea lead to "the Devil made me do it" defense?) But anyway ... I do agree with Paul's hypothesis that there exist two streams of compulsion - what we call evil and what we call good. Would you say that which stream we allow to work through us is our choice? Oddly, this reminds me of the recently released Gospel of Judas. Clearly, Judas was working for the Enemy. However, the Gospel seems to call into question whether he was on the payroll voluntarily. The Devil worked thru Judas but did Judas consciously agree or was he merely an ignorant dupe? Do any of us agree, in a heightened state of awareness, to temporarily do the devil's work for the individual purpose of "growth" or for the general purpose of fulfilling an historical process? I think it's possible. I also think it's possible, and sadly much more common, that we degrade ourselves spirtually to the point where we become an easy target for the temptations of the world. At any rate, for poor Judas, the deed was done and payment must surely be made. Which leads me to the other interesting point you made...

Resisting temptation is NOT easy. I agree that sometimes doing good is fun. Sometimes it feels pleasant. But sometimes it's a b!tch . As He said .... "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish."

Doing good because it feels good is easy. Any fool enjoys self-satisfaction. But, as you know, doing good when it hurts is where the real treasure lies. (I'm thinking of Gautama. Pacing, sweating, wringing his hands all night before he embarked on his great journey. I'm thinking of Jesus pleading for another way out in Gethsemane) Morality is a muscle that must be strengthened through excecise. Strengthening our Will that it might do God's Will, against all odds, against the base and selfish desires of our lower selves, sometimes against all reasonable arguments to the contrary is imperative in the process of spiritual growth, I think. Easy it ain't. But discipline must precede dominion, yes? It is a love of the goal that sustains us - not the temporary feelings of pleasure derived from being a "A" student.

To say there is no sin may very well be defensable while in the company of mystics, but it is an extremely dangerous concept for most. Take care. Sin very much exists. We are warned of its existance and its dangers in every religion and by every Prophet and Teacher. We toss aside those warnings at our own peril. Of course it doesn't exist outside of God, I'm not silly enough to say that. But it's there. A quick peek outside your window will settle that argument quickly enough. The real conundrum is why does it exist. What purpose does it serve? I think that question must be satisfactorily answered by the pilgrim before he proceeds to the deep waters of "there is no sin".

We zig zag up the mountain, as the wise Eckhart observed, to be sure. But I hold that exactly how much zig zaging we do is very often up to us. We often tarry, but the Father is patient.

quote:

---

I would suggest to you that, if cruelty exists at all, it exists in God. To defend God by denying a part of his creation is, to me, not a true defense of God. God must be accepted, "warts and all", or not at all.

---

I completely agree. What was it Juni said a while back? "God created evil. But he does not condone it".

Brownies?

posted August 04, 2006 11:31 AM         

Once, a holy man,
riding his donkey, saw a snake crawling into
a sleeping man's mouth! He hurried, but he couldn't
prevent it. He hit the man several blows with his club.

The man woke terrified and ran beneath an apple tree
With many rotten apples on the ground.
"Eat! You miserable wretch! Eat."
"Why are you doing this to me?"
"Eat more, you fool."
"I've never seen you before!"
"Who are you? Do you have some inner quarrel with my soul?"

The wise man kept forcing him to eat, and then he ran him.
For hours he whipped the poor man and made him run.
Finally, at nightfall, full of rotten apples,
fatigued, bleeding, he fell
and vomited everything,
the good and the bad, the apples and the snake.
When he saw that ugly snake
Come out of himself, he fell on his knees
before his assailant.
"Are you Gabriel? Are you God?
I bless the moment you first noticed me. I was dead
and didn't know it. You've given me a new life.
Everything I've said to you was stupid!
I didn't know."
"If I had explained what I was doing,
you might have panicked and died of fear.

Muhammad said,
'If I described the enemy that lives
Inside men, even the most courageous would be paralyzed. No one
would go out, or do any work. No one would pray or fast,
and all power to change would fade
from human beings,'

so I kept quiet
while I was beating you, that like David
I might shape iron, so that, impossibly,
I might put feathers back into a bird's wing.
God's silence is necessary, because of humankind's
faintheartedness. If I had told you about the snake,
you wouldn't have been able to eat, and if
you hadn't eaten, you wouldn't have vomited.

I saw your condition and drove my donkey hard
into the middle of it, saying always under my breath,
'Lord, make it easy on him.' I wasn't permitted
to tell you, and I wasn't permitted to stop beating you!"

The healed man, still kneeling,
"I have no way to thank you for the quickness
of your wisdom and the strength of your guidance.
God will thank you."

posted August 04, 2006 05:09 PM         

I`ve been thinking about the old popular elephant & blind men story.

The elephant and the blind men:

Six blind men heard of this giant wondrous animal called the elephant. Since they were blind they could only feel the form of an elephant. As it happens a circus was passing by and the six blind men went to the circus and asked the elephant keeper if they could feel his great beast. The keeper agreed and each went in and felt the elephant. When they came out, they described the elephant. The first said, "I now know the elephant is like a pillar." "No, you are wrong my friend," said the next, "The elephant is like a great big wall." The others disagreed one-by-one: "The elephant is like a leather fan." "The elephant is like a great saber." "It is like a piece of rope." "My friends, you are all wrong, you must be blind in your hands as well as your eyes, can't you see, the elephant is like a fire hose." The blind men started to argue and nearly came to blows, when the elephant keeper came over and interrupted their bickering, "My friends, you are all right, and yet you are all wrong. You, each, have felt part of the elephant, but not all. You felt the leg, which is like a pillar. You, the body, which seems like a wall, and you the ear, you, the tusk, you, the tail, and finally you felt the trunk."

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~