posted August 06, 2006 05:42 PM         

So be it!

posted August 06, 2006 05:43 PM         

That was directed to anybody with ears to hear it.

I'm sure both you and fayte have swallowed your pride many times in the past.

Let's talk about the present.

posted August 06, 2006 05:43 PM         

So I cannot and will not make a lying confession or a "who started it" confession, to something that I do not know the actual cause or facts to.

What does it matter?
"IF" I started it, I APOLOGIZE.
What more can I say?

Let it go please.

posted August 06, 2006 06:06 PM         

>>>>>>It has nothing to do with not wanting to comment because I feel I will not win you to my way of thinking. I do not expect you to be "won over". It is not a race to be won, or see who gets the most toys or converts.
I would not assume that, no more than I would imagine you would expect me to be "won over" when you disagree with me. It is not a competition.
But if you seem to be very driven and sure of yourself...I Should let it be. I should Not interfere with your walking your chosen path, when your belief is solid. It is your path to trod not mine.

A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

But I will comment when the issue at hand seems to have more flexibility to it; as in our many lovely previous discourses between each other.

posted August 06, 2006 06:24 PM         

Well said.

I ought not to have used the expression "won over".
I did not mean to imply a competition,
although, I believe that,
when we have an opportunity to enlighten someone,
it is a kind of victory to convince them of our view.
It is a victory for truth,
and therefore a victory for ALL concerned.

Certainly, we should never have expectations.
But we should WANT to make our point,
and that means showing someone a new way of seeing,
or, else, discovering the flaw in our own view.
I do indeed have an objective
other than to hear myself talk,
or to be agreed with by those who are already "converted".
And I dont think I am alone in this.
But, yeah, the word "won" is misleading.

I appreciate the other things you said,
and the respectful way in which you said them.

much love,
hsc

posted August 06, 2006 06:32 PM         

God does not cause bad things to happen to anyone. Nor does he will them to happen. Much of life just happens do to our imperfections and the imperfections of our world. What God does is bring good out of our suffering and the suffering of the planet. That is if we allow him to do that without our own intervention. Our egos do often get in the way of God's plan for our lives and our world.

Those are my thoughts on the subject anyway. Now do I know this or do I assume this as Lotus asked? Both. I know it from my own experience through my life and how God has worked in my life through times of suffering as well as times of joy. I assume it from what I was taught and have read about the lives of those who did attain a high level of spiritual awareness in their lifetimes. The examples and role models we have been given. My belief is that once anyone thinks they know anything once and for all it is then that they become a fool. That was also St. Paul's belief. Read it for yourself. He said that about himself.

So as Fayte stated, no master sees himself above his students because every good master knows he too is a student and can learn from others. Most teachers will tell you that in teaching they also learn from their students.

I think there is a problem in even thinking of ourselves as a "master" or "teacher." The reason that I think that is because I believe we are all put here to learn from and teach each other. Therefore there is no one who is higher or lower. When we even think of being "higher" we are very, very far from any sort of true spirituality. Jesus said, " He who is last will be first." Spirituality is not about becoming higher. In fact it is about the opposite. It is said of St. Francis of Assisi, who is said to be the one Saint who came closet to being like Jesus in his lifetime ( although Francis would never make that claim ), that while others were climbing up the stairs Francis was busy climbing down them. Because true spiritual people know that it is when we become nothing, when we become completely empty of ourselves, that then, and only then, can God completely fill us up with his presence. Why? Because it is only then that we are void of anything that comes from our own egos.

Lotus must have created for herself an image of God that is very punishing ( somewhat like the ancient Jews saw God in the story of Job and the OT in general) to even imply that God would inflict the illnesses onto Fayte that she suffers with. How cruel to say that to anyone. Very unkind from someone who professes to be much higher spiritually than the rest of us.

I would ask HSC that if he believes that everything is from God's will doesn't it stand to reason that when someone disagrees with your view of God or anything else for that matter, that is also God's will?

I would also like to clarify that I was not asking Lotus to reveal her pain in detail but to share how God worked in her life when she was suffering. We all suffer in one way or another. No one is exempt from that. And if you aren't willing to share your pain with others or hear about theirs then I think you are cutting yourself off from a great learning experience. I think that is what God wants us to share with each other..our pain as well as our joy and how we encountered God in those events of our lives. I think we were put here to help each other carry our crosses in life. Otherwise it holds no meaning whatsoever when you say you know anything regarding or even coming close to being TRUTH about God. I would only know that from hearing how you have personally encountered the living God in your own life and your own experiences.

posted August 06, 2006 07:57 PM         

She was often at the lagoon, however, on sunny days after rain, when the mermaids come up in extraordinary numbers to play with their bubbles. The bubbles of many colours made in rainbow water they treat as balls, hitting them gaily from one to another with their tails, and trying to keep them in the rainbow till they burst. The goals are at each end of the rainbow, and the keepers only are allowed to use their hands. Sometimes a dozen of these games will be going on in the lagoon at a time, and it is quite a pretty sight.

Who would be offended by mermaids ... or mermen ... blowing pretty bubbles?

posted August 06, 2006 08:12 PM         

quote:

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lotusheartone
Knowflake
Posts: 7085
From: piopolis, quebec canada
Registered: Jul 2005
posted August 06, 2006 06:50 PM

Mirandee..I am afraid it is you who does not understand God.. reincarnation..The Universal Laws and karma....

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posted August 06, 2006 09:51 PM         

It is not how others judge me or my spirituality that is of any concern to me. I feel no need to prove anything to anyone regarding that. It only matters how God sees and judges me. Ultimately God is our only judge.

Another passage that I would remind Lotus of is the one in which the Pharisees were questioning Jesus' legitimacy in his relationship with God, much the same as Lotus judges mine and other's relationships with God.

The Pharisees were suggesting that Jesus was born without a father ( you know the word can't use it here). They stated to Jesus, " Our Father is God, who is your father?" Knowing their hearts and intentions Jesus replied, " Your father is the father of this world who was a liar and a murderer from the beginning."

More accurate here is for Lotus to say I do not know HER concept of God. That has not been my experience of God in my life. In fact, considering the mess I am, God has been very gentle, loving and forgiving with me.

I do understand that some people seem to need a very controlling and punishing God. I also understand that some people are not comfortable with the questioning aspect of faith growth. They need to have all the answers laid out for them by authority figures. That deals more with their psyche than it does with the reality of what God is truly like. In fact, our psyche plays a lot into our concept and images of God.

posted August 06, 2006 10:44 PM         

What you said about St. Francis reminded me of a story. A man was beating his breast, saying, "I am nothing, I am nothing,". Two people were passing by, and the one remarked to the other, "Look who is nothing,". Francis was a product of his time, - a time when radical self-deprecation was believed to be pleasing to God. He attained a high level of purity, not because he derided himself, but because he did what he believed was pleasing to God (in this case, deriding himself). I think it is as common to err on the side of false modesty as on the side of arrogance. I speak up because I feel I am speaking for the Truth. Because I do not see it as a reflection upon ME, I have no qualms about putting "myself" first. It is not really myself who I am putting first, at all, but the truth. I will walk up the stairs, and not down, because it is not "I" who walks, but God, and a light should not be put under a bushel. "I" do not enter into it at all. But everyone wants to talk about me, and how I see myself. This is a shame, as I really would like to talk about the Truth.

I would ask HSC that if he believes that everything is from God's will doesn't it stand to reason that when someone disagrees with your view of God or anything else for that matter, that is also God's will?

Yes. Of course.

I also want to let HSC know that there are some things he said in his original post that I agree with and some that I don't agree with. But I don't say that I am right and he is wrong. I am just happy to see someone as young as HSC searching and thinking so much about God and spirituality.

Thank you.

posted August 06, 2006 10:53 PM         

I do not think lotus was judging, simply by stating her belief that Mirandee did not understand. If she had said, "This makes you a bad person," or "you deserve to suffer for this," that would be judgemental.

Rather, she was doing nothing which Christ did not do himself, when he asserted his belief in the truth of his view against what he believed to be the ignorance of the Pharasees. It is not judgemental to call someone ignorant. It is judgemental to say that they chose to be ignorant (an absurd statement), and deserve to suffer for their ignorance.

But, if she is guilty, I am guilty too, and we are all guilty, every time we suggest that our view is correct and another's is incorrect, just as you have done by inferring that lotus has acquired a mistaken view. We are all guilty of this, and, if you ask me, it is no crime at all. We may be wrong, but we are not judgemental, when we say that our understanding (of God, or carpentry, or whatever) is correct while another's is mistaken.

hsc

posted August 07, 2006 12:06 AM         

I beg to differ with you, my friend…..

quote:

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We may be wrong, but we are not judgemental, when we say that our understanding (of God, or carpentry, or whatever) is correct while another's is mistaken.

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Synonyms for “judgmental”: critical, condemnatory, disapproving, disparaging

All of these are degrees of discernment, the gift we all inherited as human beings. I make judgments of things trivial and weighty, during my every waking hour. But it pains me to see others being judged willy-nilly (“men who wear beards have something to hide” is a silly example). I do not set myself above anyone else – I am guilty of being judgmental. But I try to foster tolerance, both within and without. And there are some who will always set my teeth on edge – I haven’t learned to disconnect as well as I would like….. yet. I still own reddish hair and a fine Irish temper to go with it

posted August 07, 2006 01:05 AM         

HSC, I believe in Oneness as well. There has really been no need to persuade my perception. Our difference seems to be that I don't believe only in Oneness, but in an integration with that beyond the One as well. I never quite understand this or that, all or nothing thinking. One can BE, beautiful and magnificent in its supreme Purity, while that beyond the One can also exist as well in its expansion from the One( still connected, yet beyond). Our minds have difficulty understanding simultaneous existance, because it tends to categorize and assimilate. This over here is this and that over there is that, or this is IT and that is not.

One way of Truth isn't All, just as another's isn't Nothing. How could you begin to believe in Oneness while excluding? (what I mean by that, is believing your Truth is Truth and excluding other Truths). If all is One, then All Truth is relevant and none is ignorant. Everyone has their own wisdoms to share. Like Mannu said quite a ways back, we can really debate our philosophies all day, but there is truth to what all of us say, so there is no need.
(just as there are untruths to the listener as well.)

You need no great intellect, no status, no accomplishment to be a teacher. You only need to BE. Children, for example, are our greatest teachers. Personally, I believe it is because they are open, living, experiencing, absorbing/receptive, without bias. We have a lot to learn and remember through them.
I believe I would learn just as much, if not more, by spending a day with a mentally challenged individual as I would a day with a doctorite scholar.

We all judge and discern. It is a natural thing and not necessarily a bad thing. It is why we survive in this world, for without any judgement we would perish and we would have perished as a species long ago. But, with everything, discernation is a positive, only when balanced. Humility balances judgement. What is your mindset as you judge? Are you condemning in your judgement? Or simply discerning with openness and non-judgement as well in mind?
There is a difference that makes all the difference.

Mirandee said to you, Steve, that she didn't see you as right or wrong.

Yet you said,

[QUOTE}We may be wrong, but we are not judgemental, when we say that our understanding (of God, or carpentry, or whatever) is correct while another's is mistaken.[/QUOTE]

I think to critisize someone's understanding of God is extremely judgemental. What Lotus said to Mirandee was very insulting.
When you tell someone that they don't understand God, it is basically saying to them, that their own life experience; all of their joys and suffering, and long-striving quest for understanding and Truth are meaningless. It us sardonic. It is sanctimonious. It is arrogant. It is heartless.
I cannot think of a more worthy example to describe judgement used negatively towards another. It is a very intimate, personal thing, which should be treated respectfully as Sacred turf that others have no right to draw such conclusions about. Share views, yes by all means. Stand by your own Truth with strength in the long foundation of searching that brought you to it, and speak of it to hope others might learn of it too. That is beautiful. But don't deny others the validity of an entire life seen through their Eyes...an entire breathing, emotion-filled, thinking existance that walked many striving, yearning roads that brought them to this moment.

The same with someone's physical disabilities or chronic illnessnes.
Fayte, I'm sorry you had to hear that, especially as I know you've been suffering more than usual these days.

Lotus said plainly that what she said was from anger. Why would you say such a thing in anger, Lotus? To prove a point?
To prove you're right? To prove Fayte is a bad and negative person?
I saw no caring in such a remark.

I'm sad to see that you would defend it, Steve.

We can hope for peace with all our hearts, and from humbleness, try to seek better understanding, but we don't have to put up with cruelty or abuse and have every right to draw a line on what we will take from others and what we won't. To do so is not feeding an argument, so hope this won't be construed that way. To think it as feeding a negative, doesn't alter its intention. The intention is to hope for love and respect for everyone's unique and individual Place, and an end to out of line personal attacks on other's characters and cruel disregard for their sufferings.

~A "no" uttered from the deepest conviction is better and greater than a "yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
~Gandhi

posted August 07, 2006 01:10 AM         

“men who wear beards have something to hide” is a silly example

Judgement has many connotations.
I think it is clear that we are speaking about condemnation,
and not discernment.
No one would suggest that it is wrong to discern.

In any case, I agree with your "judgement".
That saying about men with beards is downright silly.
No ifs, ands, or buts.