posted December 12, 2007 12:08 PM         

why would you address *anyone* that way?

you seem very hostile toward anyone who disagrees with you, about anything.

again, does osho teach this behavior?

if so,

a mere question. i am in no position to teach anyone. but there are cults that treat people like poopoo for the purpose of "re-programming." smells familiar.

funny, because i have referenced Osho before with admiration for his philosophy. i know that the surface of a situation is not always its reality.

so all the negative hype here about him doesn't really have much of an effect on me. what does is your behavior. that's most telling.

posted December 12, 2007 12:15 PM         

Perhaps you are hurt that I called Osho a *rick*. It does not bother him. Please read him. Nor does it bother me what people call me. 26T understood that. And I her. Thats the whole point. I already responded to you on your other points. Perhaps you are serious. I don't blame you for that. I can't. I follow Tantra too. Hope you will remember that.

And I didn't know you have read Osho. All woman are naturally born with a quality to follow Tantra. More than men.

posted December 12, 2007 12:36 PM         

according to LG and sufi writers, all words have vibrations. they cause specific effects, and using them in such a manner, esp in a public place such as this will have all manner of repercussions.

i will not assume that it was your intention to do that. but to me, it certainly appears that way.

thumbsdown for those reasons. even still, it was just a question. did not even remotely reference Jesus.

posted December 12, 2007 12:40 PM         

If you are moderator, its a different story.

posted December 12, 2007 12:40 PM         

i don't acutally know very much about tantra.

hope you will see naiad's words about Osho here ~

posted December 12, 2007 12:46 PM         

this is an extremely absurd conversation. perhaps that's the point? very cultish indeed.

opinions and thoughts are not the same thing as preaching or teaching. of course, it's easy to use such admonitions in a fit of hostility, isn't it? to anyone who has anything in the least way of ideas different from your own.

posted December 12, 2007 01:06 PM         

Again opinions , opinions. Antithesis of onions.

I said good bye because you don't need me. You are growing naturally whether beautifully or not time, will tell

I can't add value to you.

posted December 12, 2007 01:08 PM         

it's all divine isn't it?

posted December 12, 2007 02:09 PM         

Sufis teach that one must move from lower names to higher Names. This sounds as if it is a simple proposition, but, as this thread demonstrates, it can often be confusing. To move from lower names to higher Names, discernment is imperative. When one is trapped in lower levels of thinking and behaving, there is no discernment between high and low, refined and coarse. The wine of mysticism is a taste that requires discernment. It requires a connoisseur. When one lacks discernment, one cannot distinguish the difference between the wino on the street corner who promotes Mad Dog 20/20 and the connoisseur who promotes 1868 Chateau Latour. Obviously the man who wishes to open a wine shop and share his knowledge should know the difference.

posted December 12, 2007 02:48 PM         

Thank you. And I am not sure how closely you followed the thread. And I am not being defensive of what I shall speak in the next few sentence. Because I am not offended.

I am not saying I am holier than thou. I am just amused when people say 'don't share this. don't share that.' People must be named 'don'ts'. They always say no. Rarely they say yes. The stories I shared about Mahavira preaches you that. When you say yes. You are on the way to become humble. And by humbleness I do not refer to the dictionary meaning of the word.

Fears are society imbred.
I will continue to defy logic. Logic is not everything. If I project myself as a madman so be it. And I don't care what label you give to it. Sufism, Hinduism, Christianity, Cultish, etc etc. I didn't come with that label. The memory that your own religion or gurus put in you is making you use of those labels. You are a parrot of your gurus and of your tradition. That is not real you.

Jesus wasn't christian. Buddha was not buddhist. The first sufi wasn't sufist LOL.
Everything is a natural evolution. The wealthy teachers and temple priests didn't follow Jesus because he was preaching destroy the temple. Who wants to give up their luxury? Not those priests certainly and not the rich Roman Catholics today.

A man is born free. Society captivates him. Religion blinds him.
Universe is big enough for all types of shop owners and all types of customers.

Truly become what your religion teaches you. Truly become that what your guru wanted you to be. Truly become what you want to become, and not what society expects of you.
Get a taste of divinity yourself rather than believe someone who describes it you.

And as always the scriptures don't come with a disclaimer 'Don't follow everything literally.' So why must I say at the end of every sentence I share 'Don't believe everything you are made to believe'. Its not me. Its what you are made of. I have a habit of calling a spade a spade. If its not spade then show me that. Don't get lost in your own garbage. If its something beyond and it can't be shown then I can understand that I need to develop new eyes.
But atleast have the courage to tell me that. And I can develop new eyes. If you believe it believe if you can't who cares?

posted December 12, 2007 03:22 PM         

quote:

---

The wealthy teachers and temple priests didn't follow Jesus
because he was preaching destroy the temple.
Who wants to give up their luxury?
Not those priests certainly and not the rich Roman Catholics today.

---

I agree, Mannu. Well said there.

Of Course, there are many Roman Catholic monks and nuns
who do give up luxuries, and much much more than that.
There are numerous monasteries and convents all over the world,
consecrated to Catholic Saints, prophets, angels, or to Christ,
where monks live in peace, meditating, praying, worshipping,
contemplating divine truths, and often working to support themselves
by making and selling high quality handmade goods.
Mount Athos in Greece is an entire island
that has been home to a handful of monasteries
for hundreds of years, where no woman may set foot.
As far as I know, only one woman, in disguise,
managed to visit the island, and it was quite the scandal.
So you see, they must give up women as well - that is the first thing.
Even the priests are forbidden to copulate.
They cant become priests without giving up the "luxury" of sex.
The sexual energy must be stored and alchemized into kundalini.
It is a high calling, and not for everyone.

Osho, on the other hand, was first called "the sex guru",
and then, alter on, "the rich man's guru"; he gave up nothing, and, instead, squandered his seed at all opportunities,
acquiring more than 90 luxury cars(enslaving thousands of souls in order to achieve that end),
and more addictions, on every level imaginable,
spending his days in pure decadence,
self-adoration, false preaching, and being hostile to other teachers.
He could not discern the difference between self-torture and self-restraint.
I wonder, did he ever even mentioned the word "charity"?

Anyway,
You be the judge.

Take your time.

This is a tough one.

I have faith in you, Mannu.

I know you'll find the truth eventually.

posted December 12, 2007 03:28 PM         

"Thank you."

You are welcome and it is kind of you to extend excellent manners.

"And I am not sure how closely you followed the thread."

I never respond to anything that I have not followed closely.

"And I am not being defensive of what I am saying from now."

Everyone is defensive. That is the nature of the tug of war at the differentiated levels. You may not wish to be defensive, but it is occuring.

"I am not saying I am holier than thou."

I should hope not!

"I am just amused when people say 'don't share this. don't share that.' People must be named 'don'ts'. They always learn to say no. Rarely they say yes."

First you are not amused. Amusement is something that is never condesending and it is always shared. As I have often explained to my children, it is a joke and humorous ONLY if all people involved are laughing. Otherwise it is some expression of a complex.

"Fears are society imbred."

Indeed. But living in denial and ignorance is not the cure for fear. Wisdom is the cure for fear.

"I will continue to defy logic. Logic is not everything. If I project myself as a madman so be it. And I don't care what label you give to it. Sufism, Hinduism, Christianity, Cultish, etc etc."

You are not in the process of defying logic. You are in the process of reacting. Just as most people react to their own uncertainty. It is not a lable, it is a human condition that is only cured through knowledge and the increase of knowledge.

"I didn't come with that label. The memory that your own religion or gurus put in you is making you use of those labels."

No, you did not come with a label. You came with an "essential nature" (fitra). But you do not know what that is any clearer than anyone else.

"Jesus wasn't christian. Buddha was not buddhist. The first sufi wasn't sufist LOL."

Indeed they are not. But that still doesn't mean that you know what they are.

"Everything is a natural evolution."

In the greatest sense of "time" yes. In the immediate sense of time no. All things do and will evolve toward perfection. But it is impossible for you to see that trend from a lower vision. At the lower level of vision, there are deviants and mutations that are desirable in the long run, but not in the short run. And some that culminate in a dead end.

"The wealthy teachers and temple priests didn't follow Jesus because he was preaching destroy the temple. Who wants to give up their luxury? Not those priests certainly and not the rich Roman Catholics today."

The majority of the people did not and do not follow Jesus (AS) for a variety of reasons. You simplify the issue.

"A man is born free. Society captivates him. Religion blinds him."

A man is not born free. A man is born into a family and a social structure that indoctrinates him from birth. You propose that you can see your own indocrination? Religion does not blind, ignorance blinds.

"Universe is big enough for all types of shop owners and all types of customers."

Of course it is. And, like the dung merchant who fainted from the scent of the perfume market, you may need dung to awaken you from a faint. But the idea is that one should come to appreciate the perfume and not fixate on the dung. (Hezrat Molana (Rumi), Masnavi/Mathnavi book IV story one at the end)

"Truly become what your religion teaches you."

You become whatever you decide to become, and it may or may not relate to your religion.

"Truly become that what your guru wanted you to be."

And if your guru is a dung merchant, then you will become a dung merchant.

"Truly become what you want to become, and not what society expects of you."

What you want is whatever your society expects. Your society is also your chosen guru.

"And as always the scriptures don't come with a disclaimer 'Don't follow everything literally.'

However, it does come with the instruction to seek wisdom and knowledge. That is the cure for following.

"So why must I say at the end of every sentence I share 'Don't believe everything you are made to believe'. Its not me. Its what you are made of."

You must say it because you do not live it. When you live, embody, any teaching or concept, people who are attracted to that teaching will accept it. If it is dung, then they are attracted to dung. If it is perfume, then they are attracted to perfume. What are you attracted to?

Peace and Blessings
Meili

PS I overlooked a line

"I have a habit of calling a spade a spade. If its not spade then show me that."

We have something in commone then. What would you have me show you? I can point to dung and say it is dung, and I can point to a rose and say it is a rose. I can show you any number of things. What I cannot do is prove it to you.

"Don't get lost in your own garbage."

If this is directed to "me", please point out the garbage and we will work to determine if I am lost in it.

"If its something beyond and it can't be shown then I can understand that I need to develop new eyes.

Everything can be shown, not everything can be understood. That is the heart of the problem.

"But atleast have the courage to tell me that."

I have never been accused of lack of courage

"And I can develop new eyes. If you believe it believe if you can't who cares?"

If I didn't think you had potential, I would not have posted. And everyone cares, otherwise we would not be human.