posted March 12, 2010 03:49 PM         

These are the reasons S gave for believing it was her fault:

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I don't think that she should have been drunk and at a place with just her and the husband in the first place. This also isn't the first time something like this has happened, which means it seems to be a pattern in her life. In otherwords and I don't mean to sound like a jerk but she seems to be asking for it, if not consciously then unconsciously. I didn't let her know that I thought it was her fault

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1. Her behavior that she told him about: drinking and sleeping in his company.
2. She's been sexually assaulted before.

It was the part of the story she told him that makes him think it was her fault. Merely drinking and sleeping in his company! If you believe that alone means someone is saying they want to be touched sexually, then you're in agreement with the husband who believed that.

Whether she consciously sent him signals that she wanted him to do that is a whole other issue, and not even one that S needed as evidence of her "asking for it." If you want to believe she did that and therefore invited his behavior, you're adding facts. It's possible those facts are true, but it's possible many things are true. Based on the given facts and her chart, what looks most likely here is rape.

Her freezing up during and showering after are typical responses for victims of sexual assault. Her threatening suicide is typical behavior of someone deeply troubled, in pain, and needing help, including if done so manipulatively.

posted March 12, 2010 03:54 PM         

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He must have some too in order to be hooked into this back and forth stuff. All this texting/having the last word. Games.

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It's child's play. Pluto/Scorpio at its most infantile.

Along with the rest of her chart, I see her particular SN - Pluto cnj Mars in Scorpio on her 12th house cusp - showing someone who says: look how much I love you. I get so close to you that your will is mine. Doesn't that make you close to me too? In that intimacy, don't you feel love for me?

Once she grows up, she'll learn the deep intimacy, sexual fulfillment, and love Pluto can give. If you're playing games, you're not really understanding Pluto yet.

Adults who really understand Pluto don't have "clumsy" sex.

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Shouldn't the bottom line here be whether he WANTS to be WITH her or not? All this diversion of things that have happened to her sexually is irrelevant to me in the scheme of things. I know I'm not winning points by saying that, but if he were in love with her and sure about his decision then he would be with her, period. He would simply be there for her during this whole terrible time instead of questioning whether any of this stuff actually 'happened' or not. Who cares really in the end whether she's telling the truth or not. She obviously is in need. If you don't fulfill that need of being there for her, then you don't want her! When you love someone you give them the benefit of the doubt somewhat, I would think lol.

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Exactly! Even if he believes that she's bringing this on herself, he should want to get her help so she can understand why and grow. Unless he has reasons to want her to remain away from her NN.

posted March 12, 2010 04:11 PM         

quote:

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It was the part of the story she told him that makes him think it was her fault. Merely drinking and sleeping in his company! If you believe that alone means someone is saying they want to be touched sexually, then you're in agreement with the husband who believed that.

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Ok! This is criticism worthy - I completely agree. I didn't think about this particular thing he said.. but you are completely right about this.

quote:

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She's been sexually assaulted before.

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quote:

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This also isn't the first time something like this has happened, which means it seems to be a pattern in her life. In otherwords and I don't mean to sound like a jerk but she seems to be asking for it, if not consciously then unconsciously.

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I took that to mean that she told him "ambiguous" stories - before.. (also about sexual events).
Stories that were similar in nature.. to this one.
I could be wrong. Honestly - that is how I interpreted that.

I do not believe there is SUCH thing as "asking for it" subconsciously - for the record.

Either she asks for it consciously or it does not *count* as "asking" anything.

quote:

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If you want to believe she did that and therefore invited his behavior, you're adding facts. It's possible those facts are true, but it's possible many things are true.

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I completely agree with this. As I said - I find her story ambiguous..

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She couldn't move"

Does that mean:

- She was too drunk to move?

- She was drugged and paralyzed?

- She was paralyzed with shock and fear?

- She was enjoying it and couldn't bring herself to leave the situation?

"She felt disgusted"

Does that mean:

- It put her off?

or

- It turned her on?

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Because the story seems ambiguous to me and much too brief - anything could be the case.. and I am not convinced that it was rape.

posted March 12, 2010 04:41 PM         

Also DD - I understand your reaction in saying: *how* could you possibly be turned on and then disgusted by it?

But I find this very common with Mars-Pluto. There is a desire to control the sex-drive, and when the person gives in to it - they almost want to punish themselves for "giving in"..

But leaving the astrology aside.. because you're probably right in that it's inappropriate for me to draw a conclusion based on that *only*..

Purely based on the things she has done and seemed to like sexually - such as -

- cutting herself for a person she met online
- asking him to choke her during sex
- putting photos of herself naked online

posted March 12, 2010 05:07 PM         

I don't find "disgusted and unable to move" all that ambiguous, especially since it's already out there culturally that people respond like that during a sexual trauma. We don't usually speak precisely. We use shorthands, and elaborate when asked for further clarification. She probably figured S knew what she meant by that b/c she meant its most obvious meaning. If he didn't understand, he could've asked her to clarify.

In what I quoted, as you pointed out S himself was ambiguous when he said she's been in situations like this before. Situations like what? What's "this"? Other times when she's made herself vulnerable to attack? Other times when she's been attacked?

So S, what other situations did you have in mind when you said that?

About your reply to DD re:disgust. We have no reason to think that as she was turned on by these things she was simultaneously "disgusted" (in the same way that her friend's behavior disgusted her):

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- cutting herself for a person she met online
- asking him to choke her during sex
- putting photos of herself naked online

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She may find that submission beautiful and incredibly arousing, not in the least bit disgusting. When I engage in consensual sexual behavior that from the outside could be viewed as demeaning towards myself, I don't feel disgusted. I feel free and turned on. Part of the arousal is not being disgusted.

I think it's dangerous to assume that because she likes those things, she wants other demeaning things done to her, like being penetrated while she's asleep by a friend's husband. She's allowed to be just plain disgusted!

Ami -

lol, I could tell you all about it but I charge by the minute.

posted March 12, 2010 05:27 PM         

quote:

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I think it's dangerous to assume that because she likes those things, she wants other demeaning things done to her

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posted March 12, 2010 05:31 PM         

But I do find her words ambiguous and unexplained.

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he said that she got drunk, fell asleep at one of her friends house and her friends husband stuck his fingers you know where while doing stuff to himself. She said that she was aware of it but couldn't move and she felt disgusted.

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I guess I would expect at least *one* word that shows she wanted to leave.
"I tried to leave"
"I tried to push him away"
"I said no and he continued"

or

"I was so extremely afraid of him that I could not move"

I am not sure that this was *all* she said though. S says that it was.
I fail to imagine a conversation where she says that and nothing else.. Maybe it's my own mental block.

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If he didn't understand, he could've asked her to clarify.

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Exactly. I don't really understand how that conversation went down.

her: this and that happened.
S: ok

or

S: "what do you mean?"
Her: silence

I don't know..

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So S, what other situations did you have in mind when you said that?

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That's a very good question.

quote:

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We have no reason to think that as she was turned on by these things she was simultaneously disgusted

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Well I have no reason to think otherwise.
For me - "I couldn't move" can mean any of the above.. and in her case "I felt disgusted" could mean "I felt disgusted by the fact that it turned me on and I did not have the self-control to leave the situation".

quote:

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We have no reason to think that as she was turned on by these things she was simultaneously disgusted

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It would be dangerous to assume that. I am not assuming that this IS the case.
I am assuming that this IS *possible*.

posted March 12, 2010 05:33 PM         

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Kind of mirrors what goes on in court cases concerning rape. The defense will bring up the past sexual history of the victim.

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One of the main things that counts in court.. and if it does not - then it definitely SHOULD count in court..

Is whether the victim SAID "NO".

As far as I see - from what S said.. she did not.

:edit: ^ probably best said "we do not KNOW whether she did or NOT"

I can't read something that isn't posted.. and I don't know whether she actually resisted this or not. I don't even know whether she had a *desire* to resist and was so petrified or perhaps drugged - that she was unable to resist.

She is not here telling the story.

So again to reiterate.. I am only saying that from what he has posted here.. I am entirely 50-50 on the matter.

I could *imagine* scenarios going both ways,

I am left imagining *scenarios* as we all are.

Because the part of what she said (which was posted here) - I believe - WAS ambiguous and much too brief.

posted March 12, 2010 05:38 PM         

Simply because people who are truly victims end up in horrible situations and treated this way in court..

It does not rule out the existence of people who go to court with concocted cases and scenarios for whatever reason - revenge, money, ruining someone's reputation.. etc
(NOT concerning rape specifically. I am saying this in general)

Sometimes they go to the media for similar reasons ^.

posted March 12, 2010 05:47 PM         

I respect your opinion too. Are we at the point in discussion when that reminder was necessary?

Courts also care if the victim was conscious when the act began, and therefore even able to say no.

Different jurisdictions have their own rules for what constitutes adequately saying "No." He could be found guilty for doing this to her when she was unconscious, even though she didn't protest when she did wake up. It would be argued that the situation was so traumatic, she couldn't respond "normally" and the requirement to say no is lessened.

posted March 12, 2010 05:57 PM         

Basically, we don't know what happened.

Now I kind of wish she came on here and actually cleared up what happened.. That's just my selfish curiosity on the one hand.. and on the other hand - I think she could do with a bunch of people convincing her to speak-up about it and go the police *if* it was a rape.

& lol @ are we at that point?
I just wanted to say that to you, because I understand everything you are saying and I do agree..

posted March 12, 2010 08:01 PM         

Everything you said made sense to me too when looked at from a cynical perspective. Since that side was being covered, I thought I'd be the idealist.

We can't know the reality for certain since we're just hearing this through an intermediary.

Whatever the case was, she needs help.

posted March 13, 2010 01:45 AM         

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A guy who was hovering over her zipping up his pants as she woke up when she was younger

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He was floating?
He took a leak?
He took a leak whilst levitating?

I mean I could understand that being memorable.. How often do you see that? I would've taken a photo.

On a more serious note - Do you ever ask about these things.. Questions like: So you were young - How old was he? Did you know him? Was he your first boyfriend in high school? Was this your first blow job? If so - Did you enjoy the experience? Did he rape you? Did he rape you not?

Should I be consulting a "yes or no" online oracle to answer questions about your vague and ambiguous stories?

Or

Would you prefer it if I continue to shower you in attention until you decide to answer.. which you probably won't since you're enjoying the attention too much?

Is there a reason you tell me one-sentence stories with no beginnings and no endings?

Is it like those chain-online stories where I add a sentence and it continues?

Is this your very round-about and inventive way to tell me you'd like to write a sex-crime novel with me?

You know.. questions.

:edit:

Also - if these were the only two stories she told you - that isn't really a pattern as much as two incidents.
We are not sure what happened in either incident.
To say that she "puts" herself in these situations.. when it comes to this last story.

I feel like saying "who doesn't?"

posted March 13, 2010 02:00 AM         

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If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

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I don't think you are btw ^

I'm taking the pi*ss as they say.. with that last post.

But I am also wondering the same thing MVM.

PS. For US people who may not know this:

posted March 13, 2010 02:04 AM         

Before I responded to this thread I kept wondering if I should even bother because I kept wondering. Then I though, aww what the hell.

posted March 13, 2010 02:07 AM         

To begin with I did see it as real.. It may be partially real.. But when the texting started.. It seems a bit strange. Why are her texts typed up with spelling errors while his are perfect?