posted October 31, 2016 04:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by soren:
no i don't feel any different from transits one day to the next. its progressions that you want to be tracking. but not day for a year. primary.

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posted October 31, 2016 04:39 PM            

To address the main question:

I also agree that the time of birth is the ascendant. That's a fact. That is the way the earth is set up. That is the ancient basis of astrology... I have watched with some dismay as a professional service is offered which has no precedent that I know of (reading this thread more closely I see there must be other prononents of this, and of course there are...), and no basis in any long term astrological lineage/tradition. Anybody can charge for whatever they want, and they can say whatever they want, and think it, and believe it, I guess (in that way I understand it may be "innocent," or genuinely intended to be helpful), but it makes me sad every time somebody says "my new ascendant" or "my rectified ascendant" on here, and I know they've paid money to have this revised ascendant, because I just don't understand what was wrong with the old one, which was based on the birth time, other than that somebody could make money selling their personal idea of another person's life experience. Which is of course what practicing astrologers do, and it is everybody's right to choose who to consult on these matters, and it is the practicing astrologer's right to practice in their own unique way. It's just a question of the abuse of power and authority at a certain point. That's where I get sad and defensive of people, considering the ethical responsibility which an astrologer actually has. So it becomes about educating people in terms of how to navigate this, but also, for people to publicly question questionable practices, as thankfully Faith has done here.

You will always be getting your consultation based on the particular lens through which the astrologer sees the chart and the world. We can mold astrological charts to our own ways of thinking in a thousand, million ways. If we are looking for a specific thing, we usually find it (as with chart rectification, the points of reference are very much up to the astrologer to determine what to use and how... chart factors which could have explained an event are ignored in favour of the one which meets with that astrologer's theory. That's why it's SUCH a tricky business. The other house cusps are JUST as sensitive to outer planet (and inner planet) transits as the ascendant, and they are often very accurate at predicting trends and themes, too. I've noticed this with the "recorded" birth time, exclusively).

There is a reason that we have lineage and that we have traditions and we have certain teachings, and the position of the ascendant is a widely accepted one for good reason.

Chart rectification is extremely difficult to do, and if you introduce the element of a birth time which isn't even the actual birth time, a soul coming into the body time... I just... indeed, there may be a different time the soul enters the body. There are a lot of theories about this out there, and for a lot of people this apparently actually happens right at conception, and for others it is at some point during the pregnancy.

posted October 31, 2016 04:41 PM            

Yes I do concur that when my progressed Sun moved from Cap to Aquarius- there was a "shift" in priorities.

But with the Moon progressing to Libra. I felt no real significance.Even when it was conjunct trans Jupiter.

posted October 31, 2016 04:42 PM            

For the birth chart of a person, this is just a starting place in which the correct Asc is hinged to that moment of delivery within a 5-hour time frame. That is because you cannot be 'born' (cross dimensions) just any ole time you please. There is order to the universe and there are openings between dimensions that allow instantaneous transfer of soul consciousness from there to here. That cannot happen just anytime or we would have inter-dimensional chaos. The incarnation moment (can be seen as the reverse of the death experience) does not consistently align with the same clock time as the moment of physical delivery of the baby.

It is always good to have as accurate a time of that moment of delivery as possible, but that event is more a function of the mother's biology, not the instant of commitment of the incoming soul. Again, it is always a good starting place, but does not guarantee an accurate Asc for the birth horoscope. Most of the time it is off by at least a few degrees, and often by one or more signs on the Asc.

You can read my pages on this at my site.

Clarifying some things Faith brought up:

1.) I don't rectify birth times. I rectify birth charts. I'm not an historian or a psychic attempting to re-write history. I'm an astrologer who works with precise proven methods used by other astrologers.

2.) I assume the time of record is correct within a few minutes of arc -- for the delivery. Again, it is the starting place, not necessarily the ending place for the verified chart.

3.) The understanding we need regarding a rising sign has first been framed by persons who have that sign for their Sun and/or Moon. We add this to the principles of the significator (ruler), element, quality, etc of that sign. However, astrologers have certainly followed persons with solid birth data and watch for the characteristics generally associated with that rising sign. Many of us have been doing this for years. Just because you don't find an entire outline of it documented online does not mean such work has not been done.

4.) Show me where astrofaces.com requires a birth document with a time. They do not. So your statement implying everything you see there is "based on official birth times" is incorrect. They only ask for birth data, which will get responses from folks who have word-of-mouth or from-memory times. Its an interesting site, but certainly not a basis for a professional rectifier like me to work from.

quote:

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Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
Further there is the theory of when your soul is born as opposed to when you are coming out of your mother's vagina which is what Kannon argues in one of his threads.

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quote:

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What do you mean by the birth of the soul and how could anyone know when it happens?

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No, the use of the term 'soul' is incorrect. Edgar Cayce said there were three facets of the process of birth: physical (delivery), spiritual (moment of commitment by the soul to being in that body, the incarnation moment), and soul birth. Soul birth is entirely irrelevant to the casting of an accurate horoscope. Only time of delivery and 'spiritual birth', which is I term I prefer not to use. It is the metaphysical incarnation moment when the real deal happens. It will always be shown eventually in how life events align with progressions and transits IF the astrologer is keen enough to perceive it. Guesswork is not used or needed, as you can work with the chart as cast by time of delivery until you suspect it needs to be corrected.

I explain al these things on my website. If I need to explain it more clearly or with more examples let me know.

posted October 31, 2016 04:49 PM            

This logic makes me feel nauseous. It is inherently disrespectful of the connectivity of the fabric of spirit, matter, body, people, souls, etc. To sever the meaning of a biological process from the intricate delicacy of the workings of interdimensional reality is to participate in the ongoing severing of our minds and spirits from our physical forms, from our physical mothers, from our physical lives. It is to remove the sacredness from the "biological mother," and turn her into a machine who couldn't possibly be participating in the intricate dance of interdimensional reality, and to take the matter into your own hands ie. play God in a most exploitative way.

People, your mother's biology is intimately linked with your own biology, and the moment of your incarnation, your physical birth, matters just as much as the timing of any other moment in your life.

If the timing of the birth isn't resonant with the timing of the BIRTH, then why should we graduate from university at the same moment as we ACTUALLY graduate from university... why not a few hours later? It just doesn't make sense to base actual life events on a rectified ascendant on the logic that interdimensional reality would get too messed up.

posted October 31, 2016 04:53 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
I meant Pluto/Neptune and Uranus transits.The slow moving planets.

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from experience, the transits in the sky have more an effect on you then their relation to your chart. a sun conjunct neptune in reality (transit) i think you will likely feel the neptune energy a lot more.

in synastry, or the synchronization i like to call it, neptune isnt just in one place in the zodiac. theres synchronization to the sun, to the horizon as well. from synchronizing, neptune is going to resonate powerfully to a spot in existence which resonated to a spot in your birth moments.

posted October 31, 2016 04:53 PM            

"There is order to the universe and there are openings between dimensions that allow instantaneous transfer of soul consciousness from there to here. That cannot happen just anytime or we would have inter-dimensional chaos. The incarnation moment (can be seen as the reverse of the death experience) does not consistently align with the same clock time as the moment of physical delivery of the baby."

posted October 31, 2016 04:58 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
I find the progressed chart difficult to understand really.

Yes I do concur that when my progressed Sun moved from Cap to Aquarius- there was a "shift" in priorities.

But with the Moon progressing to Libra. I felt no real significance.Even when it was conjunct trans Jupiter.

I guess we each have our own unique experiences.

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when i said sun changing signs i meant transit sun. i never feel transits 1/100th as strong as the progressed. like i said when i feel the sun in real time on the cusp shifting from one sign to the other, its a very subtle change.

posted October 31, 2016 05:00 PM            

"Besides astrologers can`t seem to even agree on what the ASC really symbolizes."

Yes, perhaps that's true. But there are those who have a pretty good idea. It is the cross of matter... literally corresponding to physical events and the effect we have on our environment, the effect it has on us, the nature of it, etc. The ascendant/descendant axis is a super sensitive antenna which picks up on energies with incredible immediacy and precision... much like the moment we were born, the immediate impression of the world was indelibly imprinted upon us. The room, the physicality of people, the brightness, the texture, the energy...

The ascendant has so much to do with wherever we ourselves are physically situated. And so it corresponds exactly to the time and PLACE of birth. For a reason... well, for a series of really excellent incredible, beautiful, logical reasons.

Rectifying the chart based on spirit dimension-crossing times just completely misses the point that the ascendant is based, not only on the time, but also on the LOCATION of the birth.

posted October 31, 2016 05:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by soren:
from experience, the transits in the sky have more an effect on you then their relation to your chart.....
imo, the transits aspects to each other are much more note worthy

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Can we agree to disagree?

posted October 31, 2016 05:07 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
Can we agree to disagree?

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no

not until you try both ways. i'll agree that im not sure which one is more powerful. but until you try both you shouldnt say it isnt

when the moon is full opposite the sun. is that more powerful when the transit moon is opposite your natal sun? yes.

posted October 31, 2016 05:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Vegasdlt36:
I highly doubt the birth time on any birth certificate is off by hours. Maybe a few minutes if they are looking at a wall clock?

Just my .02

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This ignores the human factor in how such documents are made. Clients and nurses tell me different. I have clients whose relatives witnessed the birth and collectively dispute the official recorded time and give a time range that was hours earlier.

One of my clients is a nurse who told me -- as I have said for years -- that the time of the delivery is the least important thing to them, and often is not recorded until well after the birth, generally 10 minutes easy, at which point there is a bit of approximation going on. Occasionally, staff fails to record the moment of delivery, but the time the mother arrived at the hospital is known and substituted. There are many ways in which a wrong time can be recorded. A sloppy handwritten note can be misread when it is typed up into a permanent "official" record.

The official record of birth in the state of Texas says Janis Joplin was born at 9:45 AM:

The Joplin family has an original hospital record that says 9:30 (that is a zero where '30' is underlined:

In addition, attention to this detail varies widely from nurse to nurse, from hospital to hospital, from region to region. Some areas of the US are still not friendly to astrology and have some staff that will purposely fail to record the time or wrongly record it. Some staff has been known to argue with the father who timed the delivery with his own watch.

No way am I going to rely on medical staff who have no investment in accurately recording my birth time be the last authority on an astrological chart for which they have no expertise whatsoever. Each time of record is worth using, and can be tested.

For example, the recent time of 2:18 AM supposedly on the birth certificate of Hillary Clinton has no affirmation from the family. The family, including Hillary herself, has records given to reporter Lynn Sweet of the Chicago Sun Times that say she was born in PM.

I take the what Hillary or her parents told Lynn Sweet over a hospital record which give a time that I tested. Not a single viable chart with valid progressions for the date of her marriage to Bill. Bogus. The time is wrong.

See the first page of the article here:
http://kannonmcafee.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/hrc-sun-times-jan93-article-p1.jpg

Most of the time the delivery moment is recorded pretty accurately, within a few minutes of correct when it is marked to the minute. However, if you take just a brief survey of chart records at Astrodatabank you will see for yourself that an disproportionate number of births are recorded at rounded hour or half hour times. This has to be taken as +/- 15 minutes. The statistical likelihood of anyone being born at exactly the top or bottom of the hour is only 1 in 30. You can use a rounded hour time if you want, but if you want a more accurate chart, or to simply test it for accuracy, there are (a very few) folks like me that can do that.

Rectification is not lucrative work, but it suits me because of my intensely detailed focus, patience, and desire to balance logic and intuition. Thank you, Aries23Degrees.

posted October 31, 2016 05:23 PM              

its not a 1 in 30 chance. how many times can 5 fit into 60. 12. so 1/12 chance to be on any increcement of 5.

posted October 31, 2016 05:24 PM            

One thing I can absolutely assure is that my self-esteem dropped when transit Saturn should've hit my natal second house. Problems at home have always existed, and Saturn didn't make my problems at home more evident or potent because they have always existed. My self-esteem did plummet dramatically however and I did retreat into myself as a result.

I'm still trying to make out this Virgo ascendant that I should have though. I am pretty good at keeping a cap on my anger thanks to Saturn, but I feel like there has to be some point where my Mars comes out in order to explain my severe anger issues. Of course an afflicted Mars may be just that, but Mars in the first would explain my anger more than a third house Mars. I do need a verbal outlet, but my Gemini Moon can explain that. When I get angry, I've been very quick to anger and have been prone to punching walls, resorting to physical outlets, and can have a tough time controlling my anger.

One thing that I'm worried about is the Neptune influence in my chart distorting all of the information that I'm giving out in order to more likely prove a point. As a Virgo Ascendant, I should be health concious and aware, but I'm not. The only thing I do is take daily supplements because my Mom prescribed them after telling her about my depression, but that's it. I'm not afraid to go to McDonalds lol.

To add on, a Virgo Ascendant would give me personality traits more akin to my father, when multiple times it has been argued that I am more like my mother. My mom has a 12th house Sun in Aries conjunct the Ascendant, while my Dad has a Taurus rising conjunct Mars in Gemini. If both parents have some sort of Arian influence on the Ascendant, then why shouldn't I? To add on, a common thing that I feel I am is that I can be "too sensitive", which doesn't necessarily sound like a Virgo Rising, does it? I can be very emotionally sensitive, even if it is when people are joking around; I just don't show it.

Just an analysis of my ascendant that I've got. Sorry to derail, could be food for thought I guess? :P
Getting my chart rectified is helping me out a lot in coming to an understanding, but there's just that unsettling feeling that something is just not right. That's why comparisons are at hand here lol

posted October 31, 2016 05:40 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:

The ascendant is derived from the moment the PHYSICAL BODY takes a breath/emerges from the body of the mother and begins to interact with the physical matrix. It creates the cross of matter, upon which we walk while we are physically incarnated.

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posted October 31, 2016 05:40 PM            

If astrology deals in the metaphysical (energy) then it must come to a fuller metaphysical concept, but it must be testable. That is what I do.

I understand that not everyone will accept such notions. But no, astrology is not based entirely on 'birth times' meaning some exact moment of first breath or delivery. Astrologers have a long record of casting charts with whatever time they are given by someone even if it is not the 'birth time.' Many modern texts written by well known authors are riddled with chart examples now known to be incorrect. Also, without any notion of your birth time there is still a lot of astrological information based on the date/location of birth.

No one has to change their chart simply because a rectifier might. Some folks don't want their charts 'fiddled' with. That is their prerogative.

posted October 31, 2016 05:43 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
quoting Ceridwen:

"Besides astrologers can`t seem to even agree on what the ASC really symbolizes."

Yes, perhaps that's true. But there are those who have a pretty good idea. It is the cross of matter... literally corresponding to physical events and the effect we have on our environment, the effect it has on us, the nature of it, etc. The ascendant/descendant axis is a super sensitive antenna which picks up on energies with incredible immediacy and precision... much like the moment we were born, the immediate impression of the world was indelibly imprinted upon us. The room, the physicality of people, the brightness, the texture, the energy...

The ascendant has so much to do with wherever we ourselves are physically situated. And so it corresponds exactly to the time and PLACE of birth. For a reason... well, for a series of really excellent incredible, beautiful, logical reasons.

Rectifying the chart based on spirit dimension-crossing times just completely misses the point that the ascendant is based, not only on the time, but also on the LOCATION of the birth.

It is, again, the point where earthly matter intersects with sky, the circle of spirit... where the earth comes into concrete being in our spirit-life... the cross of matter... the physical incarnation. The moment of expulsion from the womb of our mother, from the essential swimming in primordial ooze... the first, ENORMOUS change we experience as human beings.. the leaving of the matrix of the mother's body, and the entering into the matrix of the world as an "individual".

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posted October 31, 2016 05:45 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:

One of my clients is a nurse who told me -- as I have said for years -- that the time of the delivery is the least important thing to them, and often is not recorded until well after the birth, generally 10 minutes easy, at which point there is a bit of approximation going on.

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Interesting.
My aunt is a nurse, too, and has told me that they actually are recording the birthtime right away after delivery.
Maybe it`s different in other countries.