posted October 31, 2016 08:58 PM              

Can we maybe say that the Ascendant given through the official birth time has less sway over one's personal definition of themselves for some than it does for others? Like some people just totally resonate with their Ascendant and others are like "Meh." Maybe it depends on what this person incarnated to do, if their purpose in life is very different from their Ascendant. And it is almost like an accident that occurred and had to be corrected somehow through other energies in the chart.

Maybe this is why, in Placidus, you get people with an intercepted 1st House or a 1st House that has a lot less of their actual Ascendant (that nuance and complexity is why I stick to Placidus). Almost all of Aquarius is in my 1st, which is why I feel so Aquarius, along with my North Node, which wants me to embody and just be Aquarius. Then you also, of course, get people who have the Rising sign at 28 or 29 degrees, coming into this life feeling already very complete within that sign's energy.

So, maybe, for some, the Rising sign is just how you came into the world. And the Rising sign's ruling planet shows the life story you will have. But the person did not come into this life to be that kind of person and many things happen to lead them toward another direction (and the chart is set up to do this). People say frequently that we choose our charts. But maybe we choose something that isn't right for us. I mean we do so all the time. Its not a stretch to imagine our soul getting it wrong or messing up if our bodies and minds can. So the Universe makes sure that, even though we came into this world that way, and even though we end up in many circumstances that could make us that way, we turn out to be someone else.

If that makes any effing sense. I know I am getting highly esoteric here.

posted October 31, 2016 09:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
@yungang

Excellent points, thank you. I agree with you. Just wanted to clarify one thing:

In my case I call my ASC "rectified" just to let people know I do not have an official birth time.

I have the time given to me by a family member (6:45 pm) and stories of being born *immediately* after dinner (which would be around that time, 6:45 pm) and other circumstances of my birth story that put the time within that certain range.

Then it's easy for me to see how a certain fifteen-minute range around 6:45 pm is definitely the most significant for me and my life. I have extensive "proofs" of how well my self-rectified ASC works, even though it may be off by a few degrees either way.

There is a place for rectification, I think.

But when you have an approximate birth time, it's about splitting hairs and sharpening the focus around the known birth details. Not downgrading the significance of the birth event altogether.

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posted October 31, 2016 09:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
yungang_grotto, thanks for accurately quoting me, but I did not originate the concept (incarnation moment/spiritual birth). I was going about astrology the conventional way until I found this material in the Edgar Cayce readings. John Willner wrote about it in some of his books. The mathematics related to it was developed entirely separately in another country by a different set of minds. Folks can inquire with Fred Bickum about it: http://sbastro.com/.

If astrology deals in the metaphysical (energy) then it must come to a fuller metaphysical concept, but it must be testable. That is what I do.

I understand that not everyone will accept such notions. But no, astrology is not based entirely on 'birth times' meaning some exact moment of first breath or delivery. Astrologers have a long record of casting charts with whatever time they are given by someone even if it is not the 'birth time.' Many modern texts written by well known authors are riddled with chart examples now known to be incorrect. Also, without any notion of your birth time there is still a lot of astrological information based on the date/location of birth.

No one has to change their chart simply because a rectifier might. Some folks don't want their charts 'fiddled' with. That is their prerogative.

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I also go with whatever time a person tells me, and if I don't know, I intuit and go with that... or I cast a solar chart, with the Sun on the ascendant.

This works similarly to the way horary works, I imagine. I don't deny there is magic and portent in times drawn from.thin.air, or rather from the akasha, intuitively, etc. There are no accidents, hence my having bit my.tongue so long about this whole business.

posted October 31, 2016 09:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Thank you again, yungang.

I don't see any reason to think the soul is absent from the human in utero. For one thing, I think I remember being in my mother's womb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_memory

And it makes no sense that the soul must definitely incarnate within five hours of birth. Arbitrary.

All of my children, when I met them, told me who they were from the beginning, and they have kept on like that.

If someone were to tell me that my son who has a Taurus ASC conjunct Saturn, trine Cap moon, is actually Aries rising, I would say "Hell no. I was there! He was born quiet and studious and chill. It was a calm time. No way is he Aries rising, the energy in that room was not Aries energy. I know it."

It's not just about the mother's biology or the child's soul, it's about the TIME. The quality of the time determines perception in that moment. If your first breath, first touch, first sound, first experience with light all transpires in a certain "mood"...it makes sense that you associate it with how life inherently IS...it's as real as the feel of hands on you and the lights in your eyes. It's all quite mystical and mysterious, beyond my level of understanding, but many of us know by now, from experience, that the feeling of the time pervades everything.

And the energy of any given moment is not avoidable or optional.

So again: a child born into that energy is going to sense everything couched in that energy from the beginning. To disregard that time as meaningless is basically to dismiss the qualitative nature of time itself, and flout the whole astrological tradition.

In short, for an astrologer, it makes no sense. Or I should say, not in a comprehensive, organic way. It rearranges everything and to me, would require an overhaul of all systems that were developed out of and predicated upon factual birth time.

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Exactly.

Similarly, when my daughter was born, it was Capricorn energy all the way. She was not crying, totally stoic and just awesome... put me at ease right away (cap Moon).

Speaking of which ... the89freespirit, I think your description of yourself as a child sounds a lot like my daughter. She has always been old for her age... seemed so ancient even as a baby. And she's a ball of fun Aries Sun conjunct Jupiter... and Neptunian too with an Aqua/Pisces cusp stellium... and a million other things. But the Capricorn ascendant is there too. Maybe you think Capricorn is necessarily dour or something? It can be one of the funniest signs in the zodiac... There is so much depth to Capricorn... you do give off a certain maturity and community consciousness, self repaint and yet contributing hugely to the whole picture. Capricorn does have that, not only Aqua.

Keep in mind your ascendant might have progressed into Aqua at some point, if your asc is late Cap especially, and you might have felt that keenly. Aqua on the second house can find you intense Aquarius life themes too. The second is really important...

posted October 31, 2016 09:54 PM              

Being so substantially accomplished and structured is the major Capricorn quality that does not fit. Its why I feel more like Aquarius Rising because life just feels so chaotic and random and unpredictable to me. Again, I do have Saturn in the 12th and Capricorn rules the 12th House of Aquarius. So it all feels so similar and is one of the reasons why I feel like life has been set up to be an Aquarius life for me.

posted October 31, 2016 11:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
This is a very timely thread, as I've been thinking a lot about this very thing. Even though I do know my official birth time, I would not at all be surprised if I turned out to actually have an Aquarius Ascendant. I've played around with it and set my time forward by an hour. Looking at that chart seems pretty legit, even in terms of certain transits, although my official chart is just as convincing.

But, my Capricorn Rising is literally the only thing in my chart I could never fully relate to. But, I feel like having Saturn in the 12th and also Neptune widely conjunct my Ascendant can do that. So, it is a very tricky thing.

The only thing that's always been true was that I was a very mature, wise child and was very self-contained. However, I do have many Saturn aspects to my personal planets, including an exact sextile to the Moon. And yes, I had a difficult childhood but I'm also very Plutonian and that's a trend either way. However, I was never all that responsible, reliable, goal-oriented or in control of stuff. I was the total opposite growing up and had to learn how to access that side of myself as an adult.

But, looking back, I can see a lot of Aquarius in my behavior growing up. I remember wanting to start a petition when our school wanted us to wear uniforms when I was just a 5th grader! I was always very quirky and just a real independent thinker; never, ever followed the herd instinct. I was a very bright kid but always got in trouble for being too excitable and unpredictable and not following classroom protocol like raising your hand to speak. I was also never able to blend in. Not matter what I did, I was the weirdo in the situation, which led to a lot of social awkwardness in adolescence and a loner kind of attitude. It made me very socially detached.

Uranus in the 12th House people usually have a hard time expressing their weirdness. It was never a problem for me and not even something I could pull off very well. I've never related to being a "hidden rebel" or not wanting to let that quirkiness be seen. I could rebel in very subtle, covert ways while growing up. But, I'm also a Scorpio Moon. If I had Uranus in the 11th, my hardcore and open nonconformity would make a lot of sense. Then again, Uranus is also trine my Mercury conjunct Mars.

So, there is a lot of ambiguity in terms of all of that and I think that's the case for many people who are getting their chart rectified. Also, I'd have Aquarius North Node in the 1st, either way. (I actually brought this up on another thread). To top it off, Saturn is conjunct my Uranus. So, there is a thin line between either chart!

I have no reason to suspect that my birth time is off. But, why have I, my entire life, described myself as such an outcast, a person who loves all people (always deeply opposed all the "isms" of life even as a kid), a free spirit, an individual? I mean, look at my username! Haha. Every single time I've signed up for some online message board, my username has had some Aquarian quality: "free spirit", "maverick", "the unique one", etc. There's never been a time where I felt like I fit in. It's one of the first things I've always said about myself. Never Capricorn concepts like being a hard worker or having certain goals or the things I want to accomplish.

I used to just blame that on my NN combination, as it does give me such an Aquarian attitude and demeanor, deep down. And the way I see it is that I'm supposed to live life like an Aquarius Rising because of that placement. Maybe I've just always been in touch with that. But, it is not at all a stretch to imagine myself as being an actual Aquarius Rising, as well. It would be kind of a trip, though, like finding out I'm actually adopted or something.

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posted November 01, 2016 12:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
I think Faith and yungang do bring up excellent points. The birth time is the first breath, the starting point, and you can never disregard that. And it does define the actual birth. I have heard that my mother was actually drugged out of her mind when I was born which always supported Neptune rising.

Can we maybe say that the Ascendant given through the official birth time has less sway over one's personal definition of themselves for some than it does for others? Like some people just totally resonate with their Ascendant and others are like "Meh." Maybe it depends on what this person incarnated to do, if their purpose in life is very different from their Ascendant. And it is almost like an accident that occurred and had to be corrected somehow through other energies in the chart.

Maybe this is why, in Placidus, you get people with an intercepted 1st House or a 1st House that has a lot less of their actual Ascendant (that nuance and complexity is why I stick to Placidus). Almost all of Aquarius is in my 1st, which is why I feel so Aquarius, along with my North Node, which wants me to embody and just be Aquarius. Then you also, of course, get people who have the Rising sign at 28 or 29 degrees, coming into this life feeling already very complete within that sign's energy.

So, maybe, for some, the Rising sign is just how you came into the world. And the Rising sign's ruling planet shows the life story you will have. But the person did not come into this life to be that kind of person and many things happen to lead them toward another direction (and the chart is set up to do this). People say frequently that we choose our charts. But maybe we choose something that isn't right for us. I mean we do so all the time. Its not a stretch to imagine our soul getting it wrong or messing up if our bodies and minds can. So the Universe makes sure that, even though we came into this world that way, and even though we end up in many circumstances that could make us that way, we turn out to be someone else.

If that makes any effing sense. I know I am getting highly esoteric here.

---

My mom never got the drugs on time so she had to have me sober and feel the pain. She said that what was different between my brother, sister and I is that she felt like she was in love with me when she had me but did not feel that feeling with my siblings, she loves us all equally but that is what she said about when I was born. My relationship with her has always been very intense/plutonic really.

Now do those sound like Sag riser birth conditions or Scorpio riser?

She had me drug free and pluto my chart ruler conjuncts saturn in the 12th and Mars Venus.

posted November 01, 2016 12:43 AM            

They said I was full of energy and described things in the most direct of ways. When I didn't like something I would always say, "My tongue doesn't like it," or when I would do something bad and my parents asked me why I did it I would say, "my brain told me to." My first word was
"sh**". I was getting my hair cut and supposedly I saw it on TV, so when she was about to cut my hair I went, "oh sh**".

I think the most important thing though is that my parents emphasized that they couldn't say no to me. I was a "charmer" in subtle ways, but I always went after what I wanted. When I didn't get what I wanted though, I would throw a HUGE fit. I would start screaming and yelling and making a huge fit out of it all and it would drive my parents MAD. They couldn't stand it at all, and my dad thinks that the things he may have said when I threw these huge fits may have "stuck" with me. I remember he would spank me over it because I would break out in these huge fits ALL OF THE TIME. I also remember once I was in the kitchen helping my mom out. I was standing on a giant white chair, one high enough to sit on for like the counter and such. I was doing something on there (can't remember) and I remember it just suddenly tipping backwards and hitting the ground, following with my Mom screaming in shock and me running to her in tears.

I would sit in my room crying for HOURS, even crying when I didn't have to. It was like I was just making myself cry because I would continue and then suddenly stop like, "Okay, I'm done. I don't need to cry anymore." People LOVED me as a child, but over time I became more reclusive thanks to familial issues and have been less open with who I am. My parents say that I used to smile ALL THE TIME, and then I just stopped.

posted November 01, 2016 06:21 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
I think Faith and yungang do bring up excellent points. The birth time is the first breath, the starting point, and you can never disregard that. And it does define the actual birth.

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posted November 01, 2016 06:22 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:

But if I have the actual time of an event, I don't make up another one...

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posted November 01, 2016 09:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
At times the birth time is accurate.At times it is not.

I can't reject the "spiritual birth time " concept.So long as it comes supported with real-life evidence in the form of transits.

What fascinates me about it, is its precision. As its advocates do not make general statements and are very detail oriented.

I started to take precision calculation a lot more seriously with the current Pluto transit to my Mercury.

So many things came to light with its retrograde motion on the 16-14 Degree mark(my Mercury being at 16)

Lauren Delsack once said in her videos on birth time rectification; "The chart has got to sing". And I agree.

I started to enquirer about my birth time and Asc position after my Saturn return.

The initial time given gave me Taurus rising. Then my mother came back with an earlier time- Aries.

I didn't "recognize" Aries nor Taurus. So I had my chart rectified by an astrologer... they came up with Aries 29 Degrees(based on my life events)

Later when I read that the Asc is a sensitive point to transits, I realized that this could be the most objective way of ascertaining whether this point was indeed as sensitive as suggested.

I know that people tend to weigh the "personality" and "looks" aspect of it that much more. But I think that these should work together.

If you have Virgo rising 10-15,Neptune transits should be causing some "confusion and wipe-out" in the areas of relationships(7th).

Perhaps some health issues could also be showing up(6th)? As well as issue with identity since Neptune would be in opposition to the Asc(self)?

If you have Cancer rising 13-18 ,Pluto transits should be sorting out the 6th (health scare)/7th (significant relationship start or break up)or even an identity transformation (Pluto is opposing Asc)

Whatever it is, it is likely to be quite monumental and have an "irreversible" quality to it.

Uranus will be moving to the 29th degree and will affect my Asc degree point exact and -something has got to click. Jupiter and Saturn will too(opposing and squaring it sometime in the coming years)

If nothing happens in and around the 29th degree, then it is not a sensitive point and I will reject that Asc degree position and wait for Saturn to reach the 29th Degree to confirm what I have already concluded.

I always test Asc point with transits.So I can easily detach from it if its not accurate or does not "sing".

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posted November 01, 2016 09:54 AM            

Maybe the car accident is not the time of the accident but when the driver reached a level of intoxication that rendered her dangerous. Maybe the wedding is not the actual wedding time but when the person believed in their heart they would never leave the other person.

posted November 01, 2016 09:58 AM            

Often people have to correct a number of things on their birth certificate like their name or birth place ect, in the case of my mother her actual birthday is in incorrect, the easiest thing to mess up in a birth certificate I think would be the time. There is an article online about what to do if you need to correct something in your birth certificate bc human error is so common, there are a bunch of articles like that: http://blog.vitalchek.com/birth-certificates/correct-change-birth-certificate/

I remember looking at my birth certificate and kept seeing the date Oct 6th, apparently that must be the day that my parents got the birth certificate not my birthday September 21, two weeks later.

posted November 01, 2016 10:24 AM              

ive done several more and all have the same facial characteristics. below is the moon at nonagesimal. try blocking out the most mid-right and bottom right, those 2 for contrast dont share that same aspect. then look at all the others. and then unblock them.

i've done several more, all sharing the similarities.

here's one more: uranus 3-4 degrees away from the asc

the right blonde girl doesnt have this aspect instead has mercury/jupiter conjunct asc.

here are near exact merc-asc conjunctions. the one with the red dot doesnt share anything

posted November 01, 2016 10:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
I think Faith and yungang do bring up excellent points.

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Thank you.

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
The birth time is the first breath, the starting point, and you can never disregard that. And it does define the actual birth. I have heard that my mother was actually drugged out of her mind when I was born which always supported Neptune rising.

---

I was born "drowning" which is more my 8H Pisces moon.

But I've wondered if my birth time is my entry into this world or my first breath minutes later.

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
Can we maybe say that the Ascendant given through the official birth time has less sway over one's personal definition of themselves for some than it does for others?

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I'd say that's true and there could be many reasons for that including how the ASC is aspected. Leo rising tends to stand out because it makes the sun the chart ruler...so there is a relationship between the sun/self and ASC even if they don't technically aspect each other.

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
Almost all of Aquarius is in my 1st, which is why I feel so Aquarius, along with my North Node, which wants me to embody and just be Aquarius.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
Then you also, of course, get people who have the Rising sign at 28 or 29 degrees, coming into this life feeling already very complete within that sign's energy.

---

Not sure. In that case I would think they embody cusp energy.

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
So, maybe, for some, the Rising sign is just how you came into the world. And the Rising sign's ruling planet shows the life story you will have. But the person did not come into this life to be that kind of person and many things happen to lead them toward another direction (and the chart is set up to do this). People say frequently that we choose our charts. But maybe we choose something that isn't right for us. I mean we do so all the time. Its not a stretch to imagine our soul getting it wrong or messing up if our bodies and minds can. So the Universe makes sure that, even though we came into this world that way, and even though we end up in many circumstances that could make us that way, we turn out to be someone else.

If that makes any effing sense. I know I am getting highly esoteric here.

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It's esoteric but I like it! But I don't know.

Your discussion of your ASC and your life was interesting to read. The petition for uniforms sounds so Cap to me. And this:

quote:

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Being so substantially accomplished and structured is the major Capricorn quality that does not fit.

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Cap rising people are notoriously hard on themselves and will not grant they are successful even when they are. So you are very smart, articulate, making a strong contribution to the astrological community with your blog, and who knows what else, but you say you're not accomplished...well Cap always wants more.

posted November 01, 2016 10:31 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I was born "drowning" which is more my 8H Pisces moon.

But I've wondered if my birth time is my entry into this world or my first breath minutes later.

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I saw a video of a baby, out of the womb but still in the sac with the liquid, untouched, unopened.