posted October 31, 2016 06:05 PM              

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
[B]yungang_grotto, thanks for accurately quoting me, but I did not originate the concept (incarnation moment/spiritual birth). I was going about astrology the conventional way until I found this material in the Edgar Cayce readings. John Willner wrote about it in some of his books. The mathematics related to it was developed entirely separately in another country by a different set of minds. Folks can inquire with Fred Bickum about it: http://sbastro.com/.

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Just because Edgar is renowned doesn't mean he was right.

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If astrology deals in the metaphysical (energy) then it must come to a fuller metaphysical concept, but it must be testable. That is what I do.

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Everything in existence is related to metaphyscs and quantum physics. The matter and energy in our brains and bodies as well.

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Astrologers have a long record of casting charts with whatever time they are given by someone even if it is not the 'birth time.' Many modern texts written by well known authors are riddled with chart examples now known to be incorrect.

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That doesn't say much for anyone. It just means they were wrong with the times they were given. And they probably believed it. Doesn't say anything else though really

Edit: oh i thought you meant they had the time they believed they were born at but later found out it was inaccurate
could that still be the case?

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Also, without any notion of your birth time there is still a lot of astrological information based on the date/location of birth.

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Like what? Besides the ecliptic slant and how fast signs rise/fall

posted October 31, 2016 06:18 PM            

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Originally posted by soren:
the 2:18 time from hillary had no evidence behind it. it consisted of a man calling the databank and asked the woman to "stop saying anything" if he guessed the time right. and then eventually she stopped saying anything. haha. not really any proof there. she could have stopped to just get him to leave her.

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Not entirely. Chicago lawyer Zayin Cohen has been on record for years at Astrodatabank that he has a copy of Hillary Clinton's certificate (illegally obtained). I spoke with him by facebook message in which he had to look at it again rather than recall from memory, which I appreciated, and told me it said 2:18 AM.

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its not a 1 in 30 chance. how many times can 5 fit into 60. 12. so 1/12 chance to be on any increcement of 5.

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Huh? For a person to be born exactly at zero hour (10:00) or half hour (10:30) contains only two possibilities -- two minutes: '00' or 30'. 60 minutes per hour divided by 2 = 30.

Stop mixing and matching bits and pieces from my posts to engage in creative math to bend things to a preconceived stance. If you are going to misquote or misconstrue then I will simply stop interacting with you here.

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yes i have no clue if hospital times are right. but if you are saying that for everyone who doesnt have their time on an increment of 15, then it has a higher chance of being within 2.5 minutes of the actual time. so thats good. if you check out my saturn conjunct points thread. they all seemed to be quite accurate. mine and my relatives birth times are correct. as they were born at 11:59 and so the doctor made a deal to ask if they wanted to be a day older or younger.

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Of course, if you haven't listened to what medical personnel and clients with well-backed biographies say, then you would have no clue on the matter. One of the most important things in astrological work, especially rectification, is listening to the client, listening to those who were there, and asking for the appropriate information.

I practice this as science, best I can. I have said over and over that any proposition can be tested if you know how. I've spent many years studying the work of smarter people to learn how.

As to your relatives birth times, your own qualifier is "seem to be quite accurate." If you were not a direct witness you are dependent on a third-hand record. You cannot testify to the accuracy of a record made by a third person for an event at which you were not present. You can survey or study in-depth the astrological factors associated with that relative's chart and decide they seem to fit.

"Seem" is only a starting place for me. I work towards proof. Many followers of astrology are uncomfortable with proof, because it might challenge the astrological assertions they've been taught or the information in the chart(s) they have.

Speaking of relatives ...

My dad does not have a birth time recorded on his certificate. He was told he was born at 3 AM. That would make him a Leo riser if I took it literally. Clearly wrong. Dad has nothing Leonine about his personality at all. I once asked him, "If you could sum up your personality in one word what would it be?" He answered after just a moment's thought, "Intuitive." That is Cancer. That turns the chart back to the previous evening's 11 PM hour by necessity. My dad has obvious Cancerian home/work/family/church orientation. Mom's Sun, Mercury, Venus, Saturn are in Cancer. (They've been married 51 years).

His chart was not hard to narrow down: Asc in Cancer conjunct Saturn. He's one of the most Saturnine people I've ever known (quiet, work-oriented, very conservative, etc). But if we do things by "official" record, which here is only memory/word, then his chart's Asc would be 23 Leo with Venus tightly opposite MC (an entertainer - not!) against all evidence seen by someone (me) who has known him for 46 years and has been paying attention.

The correct rising sign is often the one previous to the quoted time of birth. A lot of folks with cuspy Ascendants know this.

The rising sign you are is the one you live and express, not what a time quote or document says you "should" be. It is understandable if folks are doubtful about an astrologer's ability to make determinations on matters that ought to seem purely factual, but the truth is often such facts are not available or are not as solid as they would seem they should be.

posted October 31, 2016 06:20 PM            

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:

Interesting.
My aunt is a nurse, too, and has told me that they actually are recording the birthtime right away after delivery.
Maybe it`s different in other countries.

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This.

posted October 31, 2016 06:25 PM              

EditAdd: the story of cohen seems fishy. giving out 3 different times. 1:18, 2:08, 2:18. i'll figure it out and get back

About the 1/30 or 1/12 thing. How often do hospitals record to the minute? I've never heard of that. Most of the time they are rounded to increments of 5. like :15 or :25. Which is why i said 1/12.

posted October 31, 2016 06:38 PM              

i was saying about my saturn conjunct points thread that they all seemed accurate. the facial expressions. of course i could get 6 people with their saturn 4 degrees from the nonagesimal to see. would take me 2 minutes, might do that now.

as for your dad, one thing that many people miss is the power of the sun. i felt its progression and i felt the asc/dsc progression. the asc/dsc is 2 points when it progresses. it is powerful. likely stronger than a planet. with both combined. maybe several magnitudes stronger, or a couple.

posted October 31, 2016 06:43 PM            

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Originally posted by DopGang:
Faith,

My birth asc (Libra) and rectified (Virgo) have quite a bit of contrast in personality.

In your opinion, would you assume Libra or Virgo?

It gets confusing and I think that's true of most people.
In my chart, you could take either and say, "Well it's your moon or etc that makes you occasionally outgoing and social."

Or, "it's your other Virgo, 12th, Pluto in first that makes you quiet and introverted."

How does one know for sure?

Thoughts?

Eta: I don't mean to sound like I don't completely understand your point. I do.

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Thanks

I don't mean to sound contentious, so it's a sensitive issue to dig into.

First of all, I think a person can know things according to their own sensitivities and training. I believe it's possible to be able to sense ASCs and differentiate between the energies. However most of us haven't worked to develop that ability. I just know it's possible based on my experiences.

Secondly, transits will tell us things. Like this thread is somewhat controversial and it reflects upon me. Well I just couldn't resist saying it. Today, the transiting sun is squaring my rectified ASC. Normally I wouldn't have said this because maybe it would reflect poorly on me, that I stir up an argument. But today, it didn't matter so much. Altogether it makes me think, "Yes, my rectification is correct." It's functional now, and it's usually functional.

The whole matter of chart rectification is interesting and I think there is a bit of wiggle room with the actual time recorded on the document. But I would say, maybe ten minutes either way as the maximum margin of error, for most people in the developed world.

posted October 31, 2016 06:45 PM            

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Originally posted by bonsai:

And Virgo is not bland....

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Indeed. A rising sign that has Asc and Mc points under the rulership of the same planet is far from being bland. Look to your Mercury carefully.

posted October 31, 2016 06:55 PM            

Excellent points, thank you. I agree with you. Just wanted to clarify one thing:

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but it makes me sad every time somebody says "my new ascendant" or "my rectified ascendant" on here, and I know they've paid money to have this revised ascendant,

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In my case I call my ASC "rectified" just to let people know I do not have an official birth time.

I have the time given to me by a family member (6:45 pm) and stories of being born *immediately* after dinner (which would be around that time, 6:45 pm) and other circumstances of my birth story that put the time within that certain range.

Then it's easy for me to see how a certain fifteen-minute range around 6:45 pm is definitely the most significant for me and my life. I have extensive "proofs" of how well my self-rectified ASC works, even though it may be off by a few degrees either way.

There is a place for rectification, I think.

posted October 31, 2016 07:01 PM            

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Originally posted by Electro DGX:
Faith, if you were to argue that I was still a Scorpio Ascendant, what would your reasoning be? I'm trying to figure this out myself but so far I'm not having the greatest amount of luck lol.

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posted October 31, 2016 07:28 PM            

What matters is what I think and that for the first time ever I am fully at peace with my chart because it fits in every way.

I did not spend any money rectifying it.

posted October 31, 2016 07:34 PM              

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
Indeed. A rising sign that has Asc and Mc points under the rulership of the same planet is far from being bland. Look to your Mercury carefully.

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posted October 31, 2016 07:37 PM              

But, my Capricorn Rising is literally the only thing in my chart I could never fully relate to. But, I feel like having Saturn in the 12th and also Neptune widely conjunct my Ascendant can do that. So, it is a very tricky thing.

The only thing that's always been true was that I was a very mature, wise child and was very self-contained. However, I do have many Saturn aspects to my personal planets, including an exact sextile to the Moon. And yes, I had a difficult childhood but I'm also very Plutonian and that's a trend either way. However, I was never all that responsible, reliable, goal-oriented or in control of stuff. I was the total opposite growing up and had to learn how to access that side of myself as an adult.

But, looking back, I can see a lot of Aquarius in my behavior growing up. I remember wanting to start a petition when our school wanted us to wear uniforms when I was just a 5th grader, in order to stop them from doing so! I was always very quirky and just a real independent thinker; never, ever followed the herd instinct. I was a very bright kid but always got in trouble for being too excitable and unpredictable and not following classroom protocol like raising your hand to speak. I was also never able to blend in. Not matter what I did, I was the weirdo in the situation, which led to a lot of social awkwardness in adolescence and a loner kind of attitude. It made me very socially detached.

Uranus in the 12th House people usually have a hard time expressing their weirdness. It was never a problem for me and not even something I could pull off very well. I've never related to being a "hidden rebel" or not wanting to let that quirkiness be seen. I could rebel in very subtle, covert ways while growing up. But, I'm also a Scorpio Moon. If I had Uranus in the 11th, my hardcore and open nonconformity would make a lot of sense. Then again, Uranus is also trine my Mercury conjunct Mars.

So, there is a lot of ambiguity in terms of all of that and I think that's the case for many people who are getting their chart rectified. Also, I'd have Aquarius North Node in the 1st, either way. (I actually brought this up on another thread). To top it off, Saturn is conjunct my Uranus. So, there is a thin line between either chart!

I have no reason to suspect that my birth time is off. But, why have I, my entire life, described myself as such an outcast, a person who loves all people (always deeply opposed all the "isms" of life even as a kid), a free spirit, an individual? I mean, look at my username! Haha. Every single time I've signed up for some online message board, my username has had some Aquarian quality: "free spirit", "maverick", "the unique one", etc. There's never been a time where I felt like I fit in. It's one of the first things I've always said about myself. Never Capricorn concepts like being a hard worker or having certain goals or the things I want to accomplish.

I used to just blame that on my NN combination, as it does give me such an Aquarian attitude and demeanor, deep down. And the way I see it is that I'm supposed to live life like an Aquarius Rising because of that placement. Maybe I've just always been in touch with that. But, it is not at all a stretch to imagine myself as being an actual Aquarius Rising, as well. It would be kind of a trip, though, like finding out I'm actually adopted or something.

posted October 31, 2016 07:50 PM              

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Originally posted by soren:
you seem to want something to tell you that you are what you are. sure you are a free spirit. there are many aquas that are very social and are friends with everyone. pay attention to people, say the things that makes people like them. each chart is different.

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So, you're saying what exactly??

I know I possess all of those traits and always have. I don't need my birth time to tell me that. I was just giving my experiences and telling how, in many ways, my Rising sign does not seem to fit my demeanor/attitude/persona and the following one (Aquarius) does a lot more, which would make it not at all a shocker if it actually was. And that there are also certain Uranus/Aquarius elements in my chart that could be responsible, as well. So, it's a tricky thing to work out.

posted October 31, 2016 08:01 PM              

To compare and see if all these birth times are right

i know how important it is to have something to compare to. so here is just completly random people to compare with :

here is a group of people, all of them, took me 10 mins to get them all, (was distracted doing something else thats why i took awhile, might be able to figure out hillary's)
all have saturn 3.5-4.5 degrees exactly (4 roughlyfrom the Nonagesimal. I made sure that none of them had it within 5 degrees of the MH.

And now to compare with, all these people as some of you have seen before all have saturn 1> degree from the nonagesimal (near exact conjunction)

You all be the judge.

posted October 31, 2016 08:05 PM            

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Originally posted by Electro DGX:
Faith, if you were to argue that I was still a Scorpio Ascendant, what would your reasoning be? I'm trying to figure this out myself but so far I'm not having the greatest amount of luck lol.

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Above all, I just believe the birth time is significant. So I just trust your birth time.

You have a special intensity and presence which matches that Mars-Saturn opposition on the angles. I think you engage people from a very earnest and straightforward place, a place of depth, and that is consistent with Mars-ASC in Scorpio.

Many things you have said over time reinforce that idea, as you learned astrology believing all that was true and contributed to the validity of your chart by seeing your life and behavior through that lens, and describing it to us. Furthermore we've witnessed how your description of yourself matches yourself. So it's hard to look at you so much differently now.

posted October 31, 2016 08:08 PM            

Wide pictures that expand the thread.

Especially when the point being made with the pictures is unclear.

posted October 31, 2016 08:13 PM            

I guess my biggest concern was the Mars-Ascendant description. I'm not a super openly-aggressive person, and I have yet to figure out why. I keep a lot of stuff private, which is what most people to seem to see. Often I take into consideration what the other person might be feeling so I don't openly react; maybe if I didn't care so much about other people then I would be more openly aggressive with them. I have been in the past lol

More often than not, I can easily react to something in a very sensitive way, but not reveal my sensitivity. Perhaps it's the dilemma between a LOUD Scorpio Riser and a QUIET Scorpio Riser, which I should be the latter.

I might go back to being a Scorpio Riser for now, but I'll keep the rectified chart just in case I might fall back, which I don't feel like doing. I think the most Plutonian part of myself is how much I conceal my twisted thoughts

posted October 31, 2016 08:30 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
Thanks

I don't mean to sound contentious, so it's a sensitive issue to dig into.

First of all, I think a person can know things according to their own sensitivities and training. I believe it's possible to be able to sense ASCs and differentiate between the energies. However most of us haven't worked to develop that ability. I just know it's possible based on my experiences.

Secondly, transits will tell us things. Like this thread is somewhat controversial and it reflects upon me. Well I just couldn't resist saying it. Today, the transiting sun is squaring my rectified ASC. Normally I wouldn't have said this because maybe it would reflect poorly on me, that I stir up an argument. But today, it didn't matter so much. Altogether it makes me think, "Yes, my rectification is correct." It's functional now, and it's usually functional.

The whole matter of chart rectification is interesting and I think there is a bit of wiggle room with the actual time recorded on the document. But I would say, maybe ten minutes either way as the maximum margin of error, for most people in the developed world.

For you, Libra ASC widely conjunct Pluto always made sense to me from the beginning. And in the privacy of my mind I have not changed your ASC.

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posted October 31, 2016 08:30 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:

I don't mean to sound contentious, so it's a sensitive issue to dig into.

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I don't think any of this is contentious, and I appreciate that you stuck your toe into these waters.

I'm going to contribute one last bit today and let others put in their part. I don't want to dominate the discussion.

Others have unknowingly and independently helped verify the notion of the incarnation theory as I have described in relation to astrology/birth. I wanted an outside, non-astrological experience or reference point that could make this metaphysical perspective more believable, more viable, more real. So I looked for it 15-18 years ago. In fact, I'd already come across it several years previous -- the year before I started studying astrology. So I looked into it again.

Near Death Experiencers (NDEs) tell their stories of looking down upon their lifeless bodies on emergency room tables or in some other process of dying. In many of those cases the body was declared dead, but of course, their stories to us means they were not dead, but lived. Many of these folks, from all walks of life, described some similar things. One was an etheric cord or silver cord connecting them (soul body?) to their apparently dead physical body, but which was not 'dead' so long as they were connected to it through this etheric/silver/blue cord.

If death cannot be entirely defined by common medical materialist definition, wouldn't it be consistent that birth is not either?

posted October 31, 2016 08:31 PM            

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
"It is always good to have as accurate a time of that moment of delivery as possible, but that event is more a function of the mother's biology, not the instant of commitment of the incoming soul. "

This logic makes me feel nauseous. It is inherently disrespectful of the connectivity of the fabric of spirit, matter, body, people, souls, etc. To sever the meaning of a biological process from the intricate delicacy of the workings of interdimensional reality is to participate in the ongoing severing of our minds and spirits from our physical forms, from our physical mothers, from our physical lives. It is to remove the sacredness from the "biological mother," and turn her into a machine who couldn't possibly be participating in the intricate dance of interdimensional reality, and to take the matter into your own hands ie. play God in a most exploitative way.

People, your mother's biology is intimately linked with your own biology, and the moment of your incarnation, your physical birth, matters just as much as the timing of any other moment in your life.

If the timing of the birth isn't resonant with the timing of the BIRTH, then why should we graduate from university at the same moment as we ACTUALLY graduate from university... why not a few hours later? It just doesn't make sense to base actual life events on a rectified ascendant on the logic that interdimensional reality would get too messed up.

As if you understand it!

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Thank you again, yungang.

I don't see any reason to think the soul is absent from the human in utero. For one thing, I think I remember being in my mother's womb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_memory

And it makes no sense that the soul must definitely incarnate within five hours of birth. Arbitrary.

All of my children, when I met them, told me who they were from the beginning, and they have kept on like that.

If someone were to tell me that my son who has a Taurus ASC conjunct Saturn, trine Cap moon, is actually Aries rising, I would say "Hell no. I was there! He was born quiet and studious and chill. It was a calm time. No way is he Aries rising, the energy in that room was not Aries energy. I know it."

It's not just about the mother's biology or the child's soul, it's about the TIME. The quality of the time determines perception in that moment. If your first breath, first touch, first sound, first experience with light all transpires in a certain "mood"...it makes sense that you associate it with how life inherently IS...it's as real as the feel of hands on you and the lights in your eyes. It's all quite mystical and mysterious, beyond my level of understanding, but many of us know by now, from experience, that the feeling of the time pervades everything.

And the energy of any given moment is not avoidable or optional.

So again: a child born into that energy is going to sense everything couched in that energy from the beginning. To disregard that time as meaningless is basically to dismiss the qualitative nature of time itself, and flout the whole astrological tradition.

posted October 31, 2016 08:53 PM            

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
I don't think any of this is contentious, and I appreciate that you stuck your toe into these waters.

I'm going to contribute one last bit today and let others put in their part. I don't want to dominate the discussion.

Others have unknowingly and independently helped verify the notion of the incarnation theory as I have described in relation to astrology/birth. I wanted an outside, non-astrological experience or reference point that could make this metaphysical perspective more believable, more viable, more real. So I looked for it 15-18 years ago. In fact, I'd already come across it several years previous -- the year before I started studying astrology. So I looked into it again.

Near Death Experiencers (NDEs) tell their stories of looking down upon their lifeless bodies on emergency room tables or in some other process of dying. In many of those cases the body was declared dead, but of course, their stories to us means they were not dead, but lived. Many of these folks, from all walks of life, described some similar things. One was an etheric cord or silver cord connecting them (soul body?) to their apparently dead physical body, but which was not 'dead' so long as they were connected to it through this etheric/silver/blue cord.

If death cannot be entirely defined by common medical materialist definition, wouldn't it be consistent that birth is not either?

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Hi Kannon,

It's not a great time in my house for concentrating, and I'll try and address your points more thoughtfully later.

One thing I know is, all times and events have an interrelationship. The "death" event of an NDE is its own time and the chart tells the story. The re-entry is another time that tells another story. Yet the final death time becomes an absolute fact when it proves itself to be the actual end of life on earth.

Just like birth is the absolute beginning of life on earth.