posted November 01, 2016 10:35 AM            

I was blue when I was born. Didn't stay quiet for long. Mom said that she never heard a baby scream that loudly.

posted November 01, 2016 11:55 AM            

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
Ascendant is defined in the mundane sense as the meeting of the eastern horizon and the ecliptic (at least in non-extreme latitudes). It is happening at any moment.

For the birth chart of a person, this is just a starting place in which the correct Asc is hinged to that moment of delivery within a 5-hour time frame. That is because you cannot be 'born' (cross dimensions) just any ole time you please. There is order to the universe and there are openings between dimensions that allow instantaneous transfer of soul consciousness from there to here.

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I see no reason to believe a fetus has no consciousness.

Do you believe animals have consciousness?

I believe all life forms have consciousness. That's what life is.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
That cannot happen just anytime or we would have inter-dimensional chaos.

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That seems to support the idea that birth is a whole and intact event, the beginning of life, more than it supports your idea that the physical birth occurs at one time, and the spiritual birth happens at another time, like a hermit crab locating its shell.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
The incarnation moment (can be seen as the reverse of the death experience) does not consistently align with the same clock time as the moment of physical delivery of the baby.

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Unknowable, and you should know that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
It is always good to have as accurate a time of that moment of delivery as possible, but that event is more a function of the mother's biology, not the instant of commitment of the incoming soul.

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Obviously you've never witnessed a birth. This is just too far-out.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
1.) I don't rectify birth times. I rectify birth charts. I'm not an historian or a psychic attempting to re-write history. I'm an astrologer who works with precise proven methods used by other astrologers.

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Thanks for the gratuitous correction.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
2.) I assume the time of record is correct within a few minutes of arc -- for the delivery. Again, it is the starting place, not necessarily the ending place for the verified chart.

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You're confusing me.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
3.) The understanding we need regarding a rising sign has first been framed by persons who have that sign for their Sun and/or Moon.

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Are you saying you base the rising sign appearance off someone with their sun/moon in that sign? How could that be, if people do not look like their suns, but their ASCs?

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
However, astrologers have certainly followed persons with solid birth data and watch for the characteristics generally associated with that rising sign. Many of us have been doing this for years. Just because you don't find an entire outline of it documented online does not mean such work has not been done.

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You misunderstood my question, I guess.

Define "solid birth data" please.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
4.) Show me where astrofaces.com requires a birth document with a time. They do not. So your statement implying everything you see there is "based on official birth times" is incorrect. They only ask for birth data, which will get responses from folks who have word-of-mouth or from-memory times. Its an interesting site, but certainly not a basis for a professional rectifier like me to work from.

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Point taken. But frankly, I trust word-of-mouth and pictures more than professional rectification, when the rectification sets the birth time five hours from birth, or even when the rectification deliberately deviates from the official record and will change the ASC altogether.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
It will always be shown eventually in how life events align with progressions and transits IF the astrologer is keen enough to perceive it. Guesswork is not used or needed, as you can work with the chart as cast by time of delivery until you suspect it needs to be corrected.

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I believe in rectification, but not the way you do it.

posted November 01, 2016 12:32 PM            

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:

Can we maybe say that the Ascendant given through the official birth time has less sway over one's personal definition of themselves for some than it does for others? Like some people just totally resonate with their Ascendant and others are like "Meh." Maybe it depends on what this person incarnated to do, if their purpose in life is very different from their Ascendant. And it is almost like an accident that occurred and had to be corrected somehow through other energies in the chart.

Maybe this is why, in Placidus, you get people with an intercepted 1st House or a 1st House that has a lot less of their actual Ascendant (that nuance and complexity is why I stick to Placidus). Almost all of Aquarius is in my 1st, which is why I feel so Aquarius, along with my North Node, which wants me to embody and just be Aquarius. Then you also, of course, get people who have the Rising sign at 28 or 29 degrees, coming into this life feeling already very complete within that sign's energy.

So, maybe, for some, the Rising sign is just how you came into the world. And the Rising sign's ruling planet shows the life story you will have. But the person did not come into this life to be that kind of person and many things happen to lead them toward another direction (and the chart is set up to do this). People say frequently that we choose our charts. But maybe we choose something that isn't right for us. I mean we do so all the time. Its not a stretch to imagine our soul getting it wrong or messing up if our bodies and minds can. So the Universe makes sure that, even though we came into this world that way, and even though we end up in many circumstances that could make us that way, we turn out to be someone else.

If that makes any effing sense. I know I am getting highly esoteric here.

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I loooove this and commend you for your open mindedness and allowing yourself to look beneath the surface on this and consider exceptions to the rule.

My rising sing is suppose to be Sag which based on my time of birth in my birth certificate would put Jupiter as my chart ruler conjunct Uranus ruler of 3H falling in my 12th house. This simply does not describe at all my life or an ongoing theme in my life but Pluto conjunct Saturn in the 12th very much describes an ongoing theme in my life. Also I relate a lot more to the heaviness of pluto conjunct saturn than Jupiter conjunct Uranus. Mind you Jupiter conjunct Uranus energy is very much still a part of me since it falls in my 1st in my rectified chart but the energy of pluto conjunct saturn is always there first and is automatic while the Jupiter conjunct Uranus is something that helps me manage the load of that pluto conjunct saturn in the 12th energy but its not this constant energy in me, it comes and goes while the heaviness and intensity is always there; that is why I don't identify with sag rising. People always describe Sag riser natives as light, chill and very optimistic...optimism is something I struggle with and have to more consciously make an effort to keep as part of my personality, now that energy of pluto conjunct saturn is very much a part of me, that intensity that makes my life more challenging is always there, not this chill light energy (that is there but is like a second layer and is not constant). I do have a great sense of humor and have my light moments and can put on a light face for the world if I want but pluto conjunct saturn is underneath all that always (more automatic reaction to my environment). Also I absorb everything around me in my energy field too and react intensely to things not in that sag light way although I can be chill about certain things believe me. My life would be easier and feel easier if sag was my rising sign I feel lol that is some of the reasons among many others why I have realized sag rising does not match me or Jupiter as a chart ruler.

My chart has to match me, not the other way around and if it doesn't you have to consider things like what you are mentioning above! or human error.

My birth certificate says 12:00PM, my mom says NO you were born close to 1PM, I say that there is a good chance both estimates are wrong since they are contradicting each other to start with and not by minutes. 1PM puts Neptune right on my AC and honestly I don't relate to this lack of identity and blending in with my environment, I stick out if anything like someone with MC in Leo and Jupiter conjunct Uranus in the 1st and I have a strong identity, always have and have always been known for having a strong character and personality so Neptune conjunct AC in combo with sun square Neptune would make me struggle with my identity; that does not fit! I have never struggled with identify issues. I don't go along with the flow, on the contrary. I have a very strong personality and always have, talk to my family, friends and people I have dated. I can't picture someone with Neptune conjunct AC, Jupiter conjunct Uranus in the 12th and sun square Neptune having a strong personality like me. I am not a leader though I will say, Sun in the 11th squaring neptune I think is why I don't feel comfortable in that role at all even though Sun rules my MC.

People would describe me as someone with spunk, "passionate" and "fiery" is the nice word they use to describe me lol. My husband complains "I dont like that you despise me one minute and look like you want to kill me and the next you love me more than anything in the world, why can you just be in the middle" says a guy with sun in libra and Taurus rising to me even though he has Venus in Leo and Mars in Scorpio. I dont realize my intensity though, is based on feedback I have gotten since I was a child about my face and eyes which fits with Scorpio rising and Pluto falling in my 12th since I seem to lack that awareness of how I am impacting others and my environment.

posted November 01, 2016 12:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
My father's birth certificate was wrong as well. But that's the exception to the rule and it makes more sense to build a system like astrology around the "rule" (most birth times are knowable) than the exception.

In this case even Kannon's 5 hour span would not serve your mother or my father if no one knew the certificate was wrong.

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posted November 01, 2016 12:40 PM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Exceptions to the rule can be statistically significant specially in the case of people feeling their ascendant is off so even though it may not be the majority it does not mean that is not statistically significant and should be belittled or minimized and made people to feel like they are wrong about the conclusions they have arrived and for following their instincts on something so personal as your chart which paints your life journey. That is how I feel anyways.

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Did I belittle anything?

I think the greater sign of disrespect is to secretly harbor criticism, or gossip, instead of presenting my concerns fair and square and asking for clarification.

The clarification leaves much to be desired especially since Kannon tends to be condescending, and draws out an equal-and-opposite reaction.

Also Kannon's flippant dismissal of other facets of astrology, like the importance of asteroids and draconic charts, forces me to conclude his ideas are not amenable to expansion or correction, which is not a sign of credibility in my opinion, but the opposite.

All that being said, of course he is a valuable astrologer.

posted November 01, 2016 01:03 PM              

Interpretation might be an art and creative, calculation is not.

Faith,

you`re absolutely entitled to say what you do and do not find credible.
And I agree with you, I find this notion of "birth of soul", separated from the event of birth itself highly questionable.

As for feeling belittled or not... Well I did sometimes feel belittled by my math teacher, cause i really thought 1 plus 1 should equal 11, yet he was right to point out that it is 2, as this is how it was defined mathematically (maybe it could have been defined differently, but there was a mathematical agreement on this).

The event of birth is defined. And that is really all what is to be said about it on my part.

posted November 01, 2016 01:12 PM              

that wwont tell you a planets energy. you want to know a planets energy is. look at the link above.

"smart. clever. witty. talkative"

gemini eh? could easily apply to any sign.

you are using words that you read to define your chart. without actually feeling or experiencing

words as a tool most of the time will not actually reveal a planets energy. i experienced neptune as it made an exact sextile. it wasn't foggy. and i wasn't weak. i felt its energy seemingly more than anything. my world was vivid.

running into disappearing lights in the sky, everything sticking out much more

sure reality was vivid. but none of it was lies.
actually. i might take that back. during that sextile i thought aliens were shooting beams down and they were using a modular giant node to send out vibrations altering human conciousness. i jumped into a thorn bush

posted November 01, 2016 01:44 PM              

I totally get what you're saying about the Capricorn Rising. And yes, I don't stop to give myself enough credit for what I have achieved. At the same time, I'm not really obsessed with achieving things. It's always in the back of my head. But, it always feels like, no matter what you achieve, it can just slip right through your fingers. That could be, again, Saturn in the 12th.

Oh and I don't think I worded that thing about me wanting to start a petition as a kid correctly. I wanted to create the petition to STOP the school from making us wear uniforms. That's why, looking back, it struck me as very Aquarius-like. My actual words were, "We should all be allowed to dress like we want. We're all individuals!" So, I was trying to rail against the system around the age of 10. But, alas, my other friends weren't exactly interested. Haha. (And maybe to make up for a few years of "repression", as I wore uniforms up until the 8th grade and often as a form of punishment from my parents, I went through a phase when I went to high school of dressing really wildly and strangely just to proclaim my individuality)

In the end, I can accept my Capricorn Rising chart and there are so many wonderful things about it. I have my only aspect to Venus (an exact trine from the Ascendant) because of it and I love having Venus trine Ascendant. Also, my Moon conjunct Midheaven is my absolute favorite aspect in my chart and fits me so well. So, I really would never want to give that up.

But, it's like everything about my chart resonates except for the Ascendant. Even though I do have Capricorn qualities, I feel like the Capricorn path is not what I'm here to live out.

@ hypatia,

Thanks and I totally get where you're coming from! I think having your chart ruler in the 12th is quite a special case and it looks like we both have it. It can create a dissociation from the Rising sign a lot of the times. And I feel like, when the chart ruler is in the 12th, you're not really supposed to personally connect to your Ascendant. You feel it on a more transpersonal level and it can create this shift where you focus more on the energy of the other sign in the 1st to compensate. You feel that sign more personally and individually, especially if there is a placement in the 1st in that sign.

Basically, I think this is a very interesting discussion and instead of seeing it in black-or-white, we should look at it in a more nuanced light. I still feel that it's very possible that some of us incarnate in this life in an Ascendant that isn't the right fit for us. And we are born at the exact time we are born, and given the placements we're given, in order to increasingly move away from that sign's energy and take on the one that is more aligned with our purpose in life. I feel like, for example, it is no coincidence that almost all of my house cusps are the traditional house cusps of Aquarius Rising and many of my house placements align with Aquarius Rising (Sun in the 7th/Leo ruling the 7th, Aries in the 3rd, Gemini in the 5th, Saturn in the 12th/Capricorn ruling the 12th). It's another reason why I relate way more to Aquarius than Capricorn, especially at this stage in my development.

So, yes, the physical Ascendant, the Ascendant one is born with, is defined by the exact time of birth. But, maybe, the sign before or after the Ascendant can, for certain people, represent what we actually came into this life to do and will eventually embody.

It's not the mathematical, logical way of looking at it. But, let's not act like astrology is purely scientific and rational because it's not. There is a science to it but this also a spiritual study. So, we cannot just purely consider the physical elements. They are important but also limiting, just like only looking at someone's physical features to determine their Ascendant. We also definitely have to take the soul into account and the soul is a very complex force.

posted November 01, 2016 02:11 PM              

you wouldn't be the same. so assuming it is in cap, there's no real point of saying you dont like it, and there's no real point of saying the descrption doesnt match you, because no description is clear cut and there is much much more to the chart than the mere ascendant. But i know you only think there is one zodiac and that the houses+ other potential zodiacs arent true most likely right.

And yes, we can't limit astrology to physicality no doubt. Not really sure what it is, but it's definitely a science.

capricorn disregarding all descriptions is just a cardinal earth. IMO.

And each element has it's own type of cheese filling that can be tasty and interesting, but especially to them, because that's their reality.

4 different directions of existence. for elements in personality. none is better, none is worse. all essential to understanding different understandings of existence.

nothing wrong with earth. descriptions of words are one thing.

i never seemed to like the description of being cold and aloof. but i have my first house the most dominant and eventually found there is likely a few zodiacs overlapping at the houses, meaning there is 3 potential zodiacs in the first house, and the second house, often aligining.

so i know its hard to accept a description that isnt you. thats why you dont let the description define you.

posted November 01, 2016 02:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:
Even though I do have Capricorn qualities, I feel like the Capricorn path is not what I'm here to live out.

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posted November 01, 2016 02:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Violets:
Skimming through this thread...

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posted November 01, 2016 02:23 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by soren:
if you're asc wasn't cappy you wouldnt be the same person (assuming you are a cap)

you wouldn't be the same. so assuming it is in cap, there's no real point of saying you dont like it, and there's no real point of saying the descrption doesnt match you, because no description is clear cut and there is much much more to the chart than the mere ascendant. But i know you only think there is one zodiac and that the houses+ other potential zodiacs arent true most likely right.

And yes, we can't limit astrology to physicality no doubt. Not really sure what it is, but it's definitely a science.

capricorn disregarding all descriptions is just a cardinal earth. IMO.

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EDIT.

I seemed to misread what you were saying so my apologies.

posted November 01, 2016 02:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Faith,

you`re absolutely entitled to say what you do and do not find credible.

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Thanks

11 Libra, transiting Jupiter
11 Libra, my Pluto

15 Cap, transiting Pluto
15 Cap, my sun

16 Aries, my Jupiter

No time like the present for digging into (Pluto) philosophical questions (Jupiter).

posted November 01, 2016 02:30 PM              

uranus is my dominating planet.

posted November 01, 2016 02:33 PM              

I do stand by one's Ascendant being the role you play in life. It is a very simple and general thing to say. But the 1st House is the simplest and most general house. There are, of course, many many other things in your chart that influence who you are and how you act. But the Ascendant ends up influencing all of these things.

In my view, a person's chart has to be broken up in simple parts in order to understand the complex whole and piece it all together. I like to go as deeply as I can into one element, figure out that part of the person and move on to the next part.

Sure we are all vast and infinite and totally complex. The chart itself shows that. But if we cannot pinpoint what all those complex parts mean, what is the point of this whole study?

posted November 01, 2016 02:38 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I believe it should be "let the most logical and persuasive argument win." Shying away from that, we lose the opportunity to see what everyone thinks and inspire each other towards clearer thinking.

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yeah i agree. let the most logical explanation be heard, and if others have a different point of view, its good to hear it, incase they are right.

posted November 01, 2016 02:43 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by the89freespirit:

I do stand by one's Ascendant being the role you play in life.

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posted November 01, 2016 02:45 PM              

One party using the scientific definition of birthtime and following the idea that the soul is not separate from the body at birth.

The other party thinks that the birth of the body and birth of the soul *could* happen at different times.

Each party of course believes they are the logical ones, as if they did not think so, they would not have their opinion in the first place.

I doubt that any further discussion really will lead to groundbreaking results.

Though it`s always good bringing those things out into the open and exchange arguments, as you have done, so maybe others will find this discussion and the arguments helpful to form THEIR opinion on the matter.