posted April 21, 2014 09:16 AM            

There are also miserable people in all of those groups.

I'm a firm believer in appreciating what you have (while knowing there are often ways to improve your situation) and I think if you live within your means you will be far happier than if you stretch yourself thin and go into debt. I think the problem a lot of Americans have is just that - buying things they don't need and can't afford and going into debt to keep up with the Jones'. Debt IS misery.

That said, I've been dirt poor and I've been what some people would say is rich but I think is realistically comfortable.

For me, it's easier to focus on more important things when you aren't worried where your next meal comes from, when you can pay your rent and your phone bill without stressing out about it, when your car breaks down and you don't have to take out a loan to have it fixed, when you don't have to worry about a drug dealer accosting you in the hallway of your own building, when you don't have to go to public showers, when the only working toilet in your building isn't two floors below yours, when you can take that pottery class you want, you can go on that trip to that place you've always wanted to see, when you can send your child to a better school than you were ever able to come near to, etc.

posted April 21, 2014 10:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MoonWitch:
There are happy poor people. There are happy middle class people. There are happy rich people.

There are also miserable people in all of those groups.

I'm a firm believer in appreciating what you have (while knowing there are often ways to improve your situation) and I think if you live within your means you will be far happier than if you stretch yourself thin and go into debt. I think the problem a lot of Americans have is just that - buying things they don't need and can't afford and going into debt to keep up with the Jones'. Debt IS misery.

That said, I've been dirt poor and I've been what some people would say is rich but I think is realistically comfortable.

For me, it's easier to focus on more important things when you aren't worried where your next meal comes from, when you can pay your rent and your phone bill without stressing out about it, when your car breaks down and you don't have to take out a loan to have it fixed, when you don't have to worry about a drug dealer accosting you in the hallway of your own building, when you don't have to go to public showers, when the only working toilet in your building is two floors below yours, when you can take that pottery class you want, you can go on that trip to that place you've always wanted to see, when you can send your child to a better school than you were ever able to come near to, etc.

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posted April 21, 2014 11:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MoonWitch:
There are happy poor people. There are happy middle class people. There are happy rich people.

There are also miserable people in all of those groups.

I'm a firm believer in appreciating what you have (while knowing there are often ways to improve your situation) and I think if you live within your means you will be far happier than if you stretch yourself thin and go into debt. I think the problem a lot of Americans have is just that - buying things they don't need and can't afford and going into debt to keep up with the Jones'. Debt IS misery.

That said, I've been dirt poor and I've been what some people would say is rich but I think is realistically comfortable.

For me, it's easier to focus on more important things when you aren't worried where your next meal comes from, when you can pay your rent and your phone bill without stressing out about it, when your car breaks down and you don't have to take out a loan to have it fixed, when you don't have to worry about a drug dealer accosting you in the hallway of your own building, when you don't have to go to public showers, when the only working toilet in your building is two floors below yours, when you can take that pottery class you want, you can go on that trip to that place you've always wanted to see, when you can send your child to a better school than you were ever able to come near to, etc.

---

Even then, if one does have to use a public shower, it is not the end of the world.

Poverty is a state of finances, impoverishment is a state of mind.

As for YTA, I sip my own wine, wear good clothes, make charity a priority and am healthier then 95% of Americans my age own my own home and know and love my God

By avg income, I'm quite "poor", by lifestyle I'm quite wealthy and growing wealthier by the day

posted April 21, 2014 11:40 AM            

I actually do think money can buy happiness. If icecream makes me happy and I now have it,there you go.

------------------
My Chart!
" Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why it is called the present."
-Joan Rivers

"Be who u r
and say what u feel
cuz those who matter dont mind
& those who mind don't matter" -Dr.Seuss

posted April 21, 2014 12:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
That is a completely untrue statement. None of the Scandinavian countries tax above 50%. The value-added tax is also the same as many EU countries.

And no, it is not compiled by Scandinavians but by the New Economics Foundation. They don't even score high on it (as highly developed countries). The Happy Planet Index is a measure of life satisfaction. The highest scoring country for 2012 was Costa Rica.

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You obviously aren't referring to the taxes for the top tax brackets. You are not figuring in capital gains or taxes on business income. You aren't figuring double taxation. You are basing your tax rates only on the "middle class" which really is the working poor. I find Scandinavia hypocritical and disgusting.

The entire concept of a value added tax is just another tax that crowds out private capital formation, savings and investment.

Have you ever traveled through the slums of the Province of San Jose, Costa Rica or anywhere in the Central Valley? Are you telling me that you would find extreme happiness there? Why not Havana?

The New Economics Foundation is a front for and in fact funded by the Socialist Party of the UK. Sorry I'm more aligned with the Tories.

posted April 21, 2014 01:47 PM            

Sybil, can I ask where you're going/went to school? We seem to have majored in the same thing or the equivalence depending on the university program

posted April 21, 2014 02:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:

You obviously aren't referring to the taxes for the top tax brackets. You are not figuring in capital gains or taxes on business income. You aren't figuring double taxation. You are basing your tax rates only on the "middle class" which really is the working poor. I find Scandinavia hypocritical and disgusting.

The entire concept of a value added tax is just another tax that crowds out private capital formation, savings and investment.

Have you ever traveled through the slums of the Province of San Jose, Costa Rica or anywhere in the Central Valley? Are you telling me that you would find extreme happiness there? Why not Havana?

The New Economics Foundation is a front for and in fact funded by the Socialist Party of the UK. Sorry I'm more aligned with the Tories.

And I don't care who I offend.

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I have no idea where you get this nonsense from! I AM referring to the TOP TAX BRACKETS, which on average in Scandinavia is around 50%.

In Sweden a middle class person making around 65 000 dollars a year will pay 31% in tax. In Norway the equivalent is 30%. Whereas a person making 116 000 a year and above in Norway will pay 37,9%. That is including double tax. Not too bad considering education, health and elderly care is free of charge in these countries.

I don't think you should talk about things you obviously don't have an understanding of.

posted April 21, 2014 02:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FireMoon:
I have so many things to say but can't say them fully till I have more time lol...

Sybil, can I ask where you're going/went to school? We seem to have majored in the same thing or the equivalence depending on the university program

I admire your optimism but have ultimately found it to be career suicide and impossible to take myself seriously if I wanted to pursue something like being a Foreign Ambassador, member of the UN, etc. knowing the economic agendas and hypocrisy especially since I'm coming from a "formally educated" level. I guess it's an existential crisis lol

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I agree with this :-) It's hard... I have no illusions about the UN and I understand the criticisms towards it, but in the end I think... What is the alternative? There is none. So imperfect as the organization may be, I think it is quite essential. I'm no big fan of humanitarian interventions though (especially ones laced with democratization and trade liberation), as this is where I find most economic agendas come into play.

posted April 21, 2014 02:51 PM            

Finland:
State tax rate on income = 32% (same with dividend income)
VAT 24%
Mandatory pension program: 23% of gross income.

You guys love interest free loans to your governments. I don't.

I manage my own damn money and healthcare much better, thank you very much. The government education, healthcare is crap. I spent almost all my teen years in the UK, and I grew up under more garbage UK socialism, albeit I attended an elite boarding school.

BTW, I haven't gone into any form of business taxation, but that's already in excess of 75%.

And for you to claim I don't understand economics is a far stretch.

I have a Masters in Economics, another one in Economic Development and work towards a MPhil in Economics. I am 8 classes away from writing my dissertation for my PhD in Economics. Plus I have my MBA.

posted April 21, 2014 02:56 PM            

I could be happy living in my car and finding random work here and there for gas and food money and just travel along the west coast and be free.
I know people who live like that and I admire them.

Sometimes I wonder what stops me, probably ambition but after I graduate I am backpacking in europe.
I hope some hostel like **** does not that happen to me LOL..
That's why I refuse to drive through texas by myself to visit my one friend lol.

posted April 21, 2014 02:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
Even then, if one does have to use a public shower, it is not the end of the world.

Poverty is a state of finances, impoverishment is a state of mind.

As for YTA, I sip my own wine, wear good clothes, make charity a priority and am healthier then 95% of Americans my age own my own home and know and love my God

By avg income, I'm quite "poor", by lifestyle I'm quite wealthy and growing wealthier by the day

That to me is an interesting life, granted I don't fly on G6's, then again, I also don't have to ask a pilot to fly me anywhere

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The end of the world? No. I'm still here.

posted April 21, 2014 04:57 PM            

If you are happy in your work, you are a more satisfied and productive human being.

Time and Finance have to have their proper balance.

Families are what suffer if this balance is not properly kept.

Children in particular.

And Children are the future, so should be taught well in the proper direction.

I also feel that it is important when setting priorities that you ask for what is needful rather than any one specific thing, as that will most behoove you in any given situation.

posted April 21, 2014 05:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
Raji - About 'the root of all evil' .. I've reached the conclusion that it's 'fear'.
I really think so much negativity in the world can be traced back to 'fear'.

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Never thought about that before... But I think you are right!

posted April 21, 2014 06:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
Raji - About 'the root of all evil' .. I've reached the conclusion that it's 'fear'.
I really think so much negativity in the world can be traced back to 'fear'.

---

Fear has its purpose in this world (more than just one).
As for Good and Evil - there's a lot of illusion surrounding this two terms. If X is good with Y - then Y will see X as a good person, though - what those two understand by good - can be seen as bad (even evil) by others. That being said - good and bad are kinda elusive in the way their interpreted by a group or another - as they don't mean the same thing for everybody.

Fear is also elusive and quite subjective/personal by the way it affects one or another. X likes spiders/Y is a afraid of spiders. X prefers large groups of people while fearing seclusion / Y prefers seclusion, as - that's where it find solitude - but fears large groups of people. That being said - fear can be both good and bad, but it's more to it then that. Evolution (personal growth) has a lot to do with fear.

If you're looking for roots of evil - try terms like "difference" and "ignorance". One can overcome fear - by being less ignorant about what he fears, one can be kinder by accepting that we're not all alike - some can be different and feel good the way they are (even if that difference - might be unappealing to others).

posted April 21, 2014 06:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sibyl:
YTA I'm not saying you do not understand economics, I'm saying I do not believe you understand the scandinavian taxation systems.

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IMO, it's one of the best financial systems around - since it was developed with common sense in mind, with an ideology where - all the citizens (both the skilled and less skilled) should earn enough to have a decent lifestyle. And by this principal - it works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden

This article was released when the economic crisis was still going strong: http://www.theguardian.com/society/joepublic/2009/aug/05/scandinavia-recession-welfare-state - which shows once again, that - that system works for what it was intended.

posted April 21, 2014 07:31 PM            

December 4, 2006 Posted by Fred Foldvary under Progress Report, The Progress Report.

The causes of social problems exist on many levels. When we ask why social problems such as poverty, unemployment, crime, and war exist, each time we determine a cause, we can ask “why” again, as children often do until they are hushed. Poverty exists because some folks can’t find jobs or the jobs pay poorly. But then why is the wage level so low? Because of the tax and land-tenure systems. Why do we have those systems? Because special interests pay to legislate it. Why do special interests get away with it? The voting structure lets them. Why does that structure exist? The voters don’t demand to change it. Why not?

When we dig down through all the layers to the roots of the causes, we find three fundamental causes of social problems: ignorance, apathy, and greed. The ultimate remedy for social problems therefore must confront all three root causes. It does little good to just run down the street shouting “share the rent!” or “stop war!”. Uttering a slogan does no good unless it arouses sympathy.

As an example of the interplay between ignorance, apathy, and greed, consider the problem of pollution. Suppose the most efficient preventative is a pollution charge based on the damage caused by each pollutant. However, the government regulates pollution instead, a policy failure that needlessly reduces employment and economic growth. One possible cause is ignorance.

But suppose the best policy is known. The owners of the polluting industries seek to influence legislation to prevent the best policy. Because of their campaign contributions and other favors, the government adopts the poorer policy. The cause in this case is greed, both by the influence seeker and by corrupted politicians.

Greed is wanting and taking more than one morally deserves. The mere desire for wealth is avarice, rather than greed. By itself, avarice does no harm, and may even do social good as a motivator to produce wealth. The desire of the owners and managers of polluting industries to avoid the social cost of their pollution is greed, a morally undeserved portion of income. Greed can take the form of seeking undeserved subsidies or privileges, or protection from competition. Greed also motivates dictators, politicians, and government officials to seek and maintain their power.

Greed alone is not sufficient for policy failure, since the question then is why the people do not organize to counter the influence of the greedy interests and power seekers. The answer is the apathy of the voters. With the benefits concentrated among a few interests, and the costs spread among the whole population, the incentives of the greedy dominate the incentives of the masses. For the average voter, the cost of organizing and lobbying is greater than his own benefit, since the benefit goes to everybody.

posted April 21, 2014 07:32 PM            

So, greed, apathy, and ignorance are all related. Greed depends on the absence of sympathy, and it benefits from ignorance about a social problem. Apathy can be reduced if there is less ignorance and less greed. Ignorance is reinforced by apathy, since apathetic folks don’t care to obtain the knowledge which would reduce their apathy. Greed exploits the ignorance of the majority who do not have sufficient sympathy to counter the greedy faction.

What can a social reformer do about these root causes? Henry George pointed to the answer, that sympathy is potentially a much stronger motivating force than self-interest:

“Shortsighted is the philosophy which counts on selfishness as the master motive of human action… If you would move men to action, to what shall you appeal? Not to their pockets, but to their patriotism; not to selfishness, but to sympathy. Self-interest is, as it were, a mechanical force – potent, it is true; capable of large and wide results. But there is in human nature what may be likened to a chemical force; which melts and fuses and overwhelms; to which nothing seems impossible. ‘All that a man hath will he give for his life’ [Job 2:4] – that is self-interest. But in loyalty to higher impulses men will give even life.” (Progress and Poverty, p. 462).

Social reformers must first eliminate their own ignorance to educate themselves to gain knowledge of the basic causes and remedies for social problems, including the economics, politics, and ethics of the problems and solutions. Then when they educate others, they must at the same time invoke their antipathy to the problem and arouse their sympathy with the remedy. When the masses are roused with sympathy and armed with knowledge of the remedy, the few greedy opponents will either be swayed themselves to join the righteous battle, or be overwhelmed by the greater force of the righteous revolution. To remedy social ills, replace ignorance, apathy and greed with knowledge, sympathy, and charity.

Source: http://www.progress.org/tpr/ignorance-apathy-greed-2/

posted April 21, 2014 09:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
I don't care what anyone says... You cant be poor and happy. Almost everything in life costs money, including the basics to survive (food,shelter,healthcare,clothes etc.) and this is coming from a guy who has lived on the edge his whole life... My whole life has been stressful and over 90% of that stress is money related. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will be a million times happier when I'm able to get a good job and become financially stable. The bottom line is being broke sucks and if you say otherwise you clearly have never been broke.

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Hah! I've been past rolled pennies broke and was still quite happy. What i learned is many things we are "told" we need, we in fact, do not need. My interests were very inexpensive, yet fulfilling AND beneficial

As an example "oh you need a nice car!"

Hmm, payments, gas insurance, i bike commuted, lost 70(!) pds, made lots of friends and completely enjoyed myself.

That time biking to college and work and going out was filled with a ipod, that i literally found in the rd, and it was loaded with language learning lessons, philosophy, business strategy, sales techniques etc.

Not some crappy ass pop music, or classic rock I've heard a million times

Total cost? 100 bucks

Also re-discovered my love for weight lifting, buy it once, use it forever.

If anyone tells you that "oh unless you have a great car, you'll never hook up with a woman"

They are lying, all that physical work, shedding the weight and adding muscle, really does make things much easier when finding a woman one may like and I'll leave it at that.

And on and on, making your own wine is incredibly easy and inexpensive. When one hangs out at places were the local foodie culture hangs out..one learns to cook great food, that is very inexpensive, and save even more $$$

Clothes, really depends on your style, if one has one, i literally wore out 5 pairs of jeans bike commuting, when your thighs go all Hulkish, it just destroys them..BUT, destressed jeans were en vogue last yr, instead of looking ragged..looked..stylish

This is some of the things i discovered all the while being "broke", being poor is a state of finances, being impoverished is a choice.

That said, will make more $$$ to scale up some of the skills i learned while "broke"

This is one of my points in all of this AG, we are told "you have to make lots of $$, THEN you will be happy!"

I'd bet even doughty YTA would tell you, all that happens is you exchange one set of problems for a new set of problems