posted September 01, 2011 08:39 AM            

I once was a member of a Freemason forum, just to learn about the order, and they said that there are separate order set up for women, but women could only join if related to, or married to a freemason.
Whereas, men can join if the fancy takes them.

I find this incredibly sexist.

I have spoken to a couple of freemasons who were very guarded, and gave me basically no information other than 'it is a brotherhood' - women can't be 'brothers'.
One of them also said I "should never ask a freemason about freemasonry" - he had a most threatening look in his eye when he said it.

I have spoken to the wife of a freemason who says she is involved with a group called The Order of the Eastern Star - or something to that effect. She brushed off my questions and said it was a load of rubbish and that she only goes because her husband is a freemason - obviously being evasive under a cloak of frivolity.

I was intimate with a freemason this year, we had a short 'relationship', he showed me some handshakes, explained that being a mason made it easer to get work and/or financial support, he wouldn't tell me a password even though I pressed him half to death (he obviously has the patience of a saint, or is very scared of repurcussions), and when I asked him about why women can't actually BE freemasons in their own right, he said "well it's just 'tradition', isn't it?".

Tradition my arse.
Tradition was only allowing white men to join, now MEN of any ethnic background can join.

He also said that women may be a 'distraction'.

Why abolish the race tradition and not the gender one?

Are we women so powerful that even the grand freemasons and their heroic sidekicks, the templars, fear us?
I think so.

posted September 01, 2011 02:15 PM            

Its their home, their rules if you don't like it, go start your own club

That's their attitude and its not going to change for any woman

I may not agree with them, and its one of the reasons I have chosen not to join. But that doesn't I mean I don't respect their decision. This whole gender equality crap trying to penetrate and emasculate men on every level is just as dangerous to a society as male chauvinism.

-Shrugs-

posted September 01, 2011 02:24 PM            

The Masonic Order being some cloak and dagger sect is rubbish and over blown.

I am moving this to The Spider Line as I believe it is the proper forum for it.
thanks!

posted September 01, 2011 02:25 PM            

quote:

---

This whole gender equality crap trying to penetrate and emasculate men on every level is just as dangerous to a society as male chauvinism.

---

posted September 01, 2011 03:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:

Its a man's club plain and simple, and they have the right to say no, you cannot join because you are a woman!

Its there home, there rules if you don't like it, go start your own club

That's their attitude and its not going to change for any woman

I may not agree with them, and its one of the reasons I have chosen not to join. But that doesnt I mean I don't respect there decision. This whole gender equality crap trying to penetrate and emasculate men on every level is just as dangerous to a society as male chauvinism.

-Shrugs-

---

Thank you for your opinion.

I'm sorry you feel threatened by equality.

(equality does not = feminism, by the way)

posted September 01, 2011 03:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by juniperb:
The womens is the Order of the Eastern Star. One can join if asked without husband being a Mason.

The Masonic Order being some cloak and dagger sect is rubbish and over blown.

I am moving this to The Spider Line as I believe it is the proper forum for it.
thanks!

---

Cheers JUniper, I wasn't sure where to put it tbh.

posted September 01, 2011 03:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by amowls**:
That's a load of horsesh*t. You're wrong. The end. Masculinity and Femininity are cultural constructs. Whether you were born with a d*ck or a vag*na doesn't mean you are AUTOMATICALLY going to act masculine or feminine. My vag*na has no bearing on whether I'm good at driving or math. Men don't have to feel pressure to be ultra masculine, just as women don't have to feel pressure to be ultra feminine. Gender inequality hurts us all and if you believe otherwise, you're part of the problem.

---

posted September 01, 2011 04:12 PM            

The subject of women and Freemasonry is complex and without an easy explanation. Traditionally, only men can be made Freemasons in Regular Freemasonry. Many Grand Lodges do not admit women because they believe it would break the ancient Masonic Landmarks. However, there are many non-mainstream Masonic bodies that do admit both men and women or exclusively women. Furthermore, there are many female orders associated with regular Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star, the Order of the Amaranth, the White Shrine of Jerusalem, the Social Order of Beauceant and the Daughters of the Nile.

Justification for exclusion

Mainstream Masonic Grand Lodges justify the exclusion of women from Freemasonry for several reasons. The structure and traditions of modern day Freemasonry is based from the operative medieval stonemasons of Europe. These operative masonic guilds did not allow women to join, because of the culture of the time. Many Grand Lodges are of the opinion that altering this structure would completely change Freemasonry. Furthermore, mainstream Grand Lodges adhere to the masonic landmarks laid out in the early 18th century, which are considered unchangeable. One of these landmarks specifies that a woman is not to be made a mason. Finally, in many jurisdictions masons swear "not to be present at the making of a woman a Mason" in their obligations. Many masons believe that regardless of their opinions of women in masonry, they cannot break their obligation.

posted September 01, 2011 04:15 PM            

Order of the Amaranth is a Masonic-affiliated women's organization founded in 1873. As in the Order of the Eastern Star, members of the Order must be age 18 and older; men must be Master Masons; and women must be related to Masons as wives, mothers, daughters, widows, sisters, nieces, aunts, et cetera, or have been active members of the International Order of the Rainbow for Girls or Job's Daughters International for more than three years and be recommended by a Master Mason.

posted September 01, 2011 04:16 PM            

Job's Daughters International is a Masonic-sponsored youth organization for girls and young women aged 10 to 20. The organization is commonly referred to as simply Job's Daughters, and sometimes abbreviated as JDI (or IOJD, referring to its longtime former name). Job's Daughters welcomes many religions and cultures.

posted September 01, 2011 04:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Why abolish the race tradition and not the gender one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:

Are we women so powerful that even the grand freemasons and their heroic sidekicks, the templars, fear us?
I think so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:

Its a man's club plain and simple, and they have the right to say no, you cannot join because you are a woman!

Its there home, there rules if you don't like it, go start your own club

That's their attitude and its not going to change for any woman

I may not agree with them, and its one of the reasons I have chosen not to join. But that doesnt I mean I don't respect there decision. This whole gender equality crap trying to penetrate and emasculate men on every level is just as dangerous to a society as male chauvinism.

-Shrugs-

---

*imitates white southernor circa 1950's* This is our city and these our our private businesses and our buses, and if the Negro population doesn't like that that's there problem. We shouldn't have to serve their kind here and they should consider themselves lucky that we even serve them. We shouldn't even have to provide them with their own bathrooms. If they have a problem with that they can go somewhere else or start their own businesses. They have their own schools as it is, and they do well enough.

Did you forget the reverse discrimination via promotions and job opportunities to people of this supposed 'club'? In the economic disaster it was the non-masons who suffered the most. That isn't right for a racially and gender discriminating private club to take such precedence economically over others. I don't have time to waste bringing up all the quotes of the major people through the ages saying how dangerous secret societies are.

We already know almost all congressmen and presidents are or have been Masons. Considering Politicians are some of the most *coughs* vile *cough* err upstanding righteous spectrum of the population..

I'm all about liberty. Certainly women tend to do better as mothers in emotionally supportive roles, and society functions better having that spectrum of nurturance, but that doesn't mean they should be forced into any preconceived notion of what works due solely upon their chromosomal make-up. We know the preconceived notions and generalized gender potentialities don't work across the board, and to try to establish some kind of social engineering based upon such notions would be inherently cruel and stifling to our creative growth and development as a species. What if the mother exposed the female baby to more testosterone in the womb due to a medical issue and that caused the structure of her brain to resemble a male's? It would be cruel to force her overtly or through subtler means of social bias to do something she did not love and she was not made to do. Not only that, it likely would be fighting against her soul's purpose incarnating into such a body with such a brain. What if she was gifted with a brain and purpose to work with developing a unified field theory and due to our suppression she was miserable at home with three children in a domestic situation she felt trapt in? What kind of children would they grow up to be? There are geniuses of both genders in every field.

posted September 01, 2011 04:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Thank you for your opinion.

I'm sorry you feel threatened by equality.

(equality does not = feminism, by the way)

Oh, and I don;t recall expecting any thing more than information and thoughts.
Why assume I want to join or change them?
Why not assume I just want to UNDERSTAND them?

---

posted September 01, 2011 04:39 PM            

Its the masons view of themselves... I did nothing but iterate it

Granted I could have left out the smileys but it really is how they feel, from my understanding of them...

Never said I agreed with it.. bloody hell

-rolls eyes-

Anyways, will post further response later

posted September 01, 2011 09:27 PM            

Please point to where I said you wanted to join the Freemasons?

My concern over gender equality is far less subjective than yours...

Clearly you're the one with equality issues, not I

Thats the main problem I see in this thread, you have people putting forward very subjective opinions on gender issues and the masons as a whole. However like I hinted in my first post, one of the reason I would not join said group was because of their women issues. Not to mention the fact that they are practically a criminal organization at this point.

Biologically, gender wise we are different for good bloody reasons, women the sacred life giver, man the protector/hunter. This is the basis of our core psyche and has been for millennia, but society has brought much change and terrible confusion to both genders. Men no longer know what it is they should be anymore in this nanny state society, and women for the most part have fallen under the hammer of such insecurities amongst men.

Just the same, the counter movement as it were now seeks to do the same to men as retribution, and I don't care how you frame it, two wrongs aint going to make a right. The solution is not as simple as equality, because your first assuming that both genders have the slightest idea of what it is they are at this point. Like equality between what?

However the biology factor is a big one, it has more of a bearing than people realize in the difference between men and women in even simple things.

quote:

---

My vag*na has no bearing on whether I'm good at driving or math

---

Oh really? Are you aware of the biological differences between male and female eyes in the rods and cones differential ratio, as such causes men to have far better depth perception than women. This is also a factor in spatial intelligence and yes, things like puzzles and math. While women, however, quite literally take in the bigger picture so have wider peripheral vision and other benefits, because they have more of the receptor rods and cones in the retina.

Work the rest out for yourself.... and take the latter up with mother nature

(Yes there are always exceptions, such is the spice of life)

People it seems, have become extremely resentful of even there own gender not to mention their counterparts. And I do hate to bring subjective observations into play here, but as a very androgynous male, betwixt my long flowing hair and delicate features, could pass for a woman if I so choose it. Struggling to understand what it is to be male is an on going process of exploration for me, and I feel the movie "Fightclub" addresses these issue in a very thought provoking way. Men may very well need men only groups to sit down and figure out just what they are, and are becoming... As such deals heavily with rites of passage and what not, and its a much bigger topic of discussion and ofc women I feel may need the same...

So when I see people arguing over... omgs, I cant join a male group, or female group because its got exclusivity one way or the other... As if such implies they are hiding some kind of powerful secret that inhibits the other gender. Ofc, they must be out right misogynistic/feminist heathens?

No, they may just need get naked, scream like a wild beast while dancing around a campfire and throw spears at targets to get in touch what it is to be a man, or woman for that matter... And they may not want the other gender around while they do such. Why? Perhaps because such is just embarrassing at this point in history...

I'm afraid its going to take a higher mind than someone who only deals in absolutes to nurse the pain in gender roles as things stand.

posted September 02, 2011 01:23 AM            

Sweet Peas In The Rain

due to the highlighted description of the forum.

WARNING: This Forum is for mature themes meant for adults only, and by entering, you certify that you are at least 18 years of age--inside you will find topics like physical intimacy,

understanding the differences between men and women,

depression and other psychological disorders, suicide, the loss of a child, emotional/physical abuse, and anything of an adult-oriented nature; no one is too Lost to be Found...like Linda's sparkling blue and silver Rosary in the snow...just Go And Smell A Rose...or Sweet Peas In The Rain

posted September 02, 2011 03:26 AM            

I'm afraid its going to take a higher mind than someone who only deals in absolutes to nurse the pain in gender roles as things stand.

I answered this question when I quoted the relevant post. Here it is again:

Oh, and just so we are clear, it was an assumption rather than a statement, I believe

"Its a man's club plain and simple, and they have the right to say no, you cannot join because you are a woman!"

Perhaps you were referring 'woman' in a general sense.

Erm, no, I don't have equality issues.
I BELIEVE in equality between men and women, ethnic groups, sexualities, etc, all those things that it's ridiculous to discriminate for.
If that is an 'equality issue', fair enough, call it what you like.

My statement to you was not that you had equality issues, but that you fear it.

And yes, it's an assumption on my part based your closing statement:

This whole gender equality crap trying to penetrate and emasculate men on every level is just as dangerous to a society as male chauvinism.

Let's think about what you have communicated to me, a woman, with that statement

- gender equality is crap
- gender equality deprives or degrades men (contradiction in terms from one who clearly feels threatened)
- gender equality is a danger to society, just like wife beaters, rapists, honour murderers, etc.

Wow.

posted September 02, 2011 03:41 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
Why people are assuming what I said about the masons is "my opinion", well it is not...

Its the masons view of themselves... I did nothing but iterate it

Granted I could have left out the smileys but it really is how they feel, from my understanding of them...

Never said I agreed with it.. bloody hell

-rolls eyes-

Anyways, will post further response later

---

How can you know the mason's view of themselves if you are not a mason?

Any group that is selective about what information they give to the public pretty much renders themselves guarded. Therefore, how do you know what information is whole truth, partial truth, or smokescreen?

I have been told by masons that there are many elements of freemasonry that are purely for the eyes and ears of masons only. They take oaths of silence.