posted March 31, 2015 11:51 PM            

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
If you've had any further thoughts on his Chiron, it would be great if you share them.

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Hi SaturnFan, I don't know why it never dawned on me before but it just struck me that Chiron plays a significant role in the Prometheus myth. Then, I look at the pilot's chart and what do I see: a tight Chiron opposition to Saturn-Uranus and the stellium. I like to bring in the Prometheus myth with people who have Saturn-Uranus in the birth chart because I believe it helps to illuminate the struggle - which is archetypal - of people who have these planets in major aspect. But only now has it occurred to me that Chiron's role in the myth may serve a similar role for people with Saturn-Uranus in major aspect in their charts. That the tension and conflict between Zeus, who plays the Saturn role in this myth, and Prometheus-Uranus is resolved through the agency of Chiron. Or maybe that's too literal a way to look at it. I don't know.

Anyway, here's another perspective on how to synthesize these two heavyweights, Saturn and Uranus:

"Only a conscious integration of both the Prometheus and the Saturn archetypes is truly liberating. Otherwise, one or the other rules the psyche, by virtue of its unconsciousness, and thereby represses the psyche’s capacity for wider awareness with its concomitant freedom. Prometheus needs a structure for his revolution, and Saturn is that structure. Prometheus needs Saturn’s hard-won virtues—discipline, precision, balance, control, authority, the capacity for systematic organization, imperturbable patience, power of concentration, and time. In order to bring to birth his revolution Prometheus needs Saturn’s experience, the accumulated learning of many lifetimes.

Until one experiences Saturn deeply and inwardly, authority will be projected onto authority figures, Fate, or God as Saturn. As Nietzsche pointed out, “He who cannot obey himself will be commanded.” Without a conscious internal Saturn, the individual defines himself according to images imposed by and evoked from external authorities. With the integration of Saturn, he is himself the origin of his own definition. Then Saturn, as an external inhibiting force, is no longer necessary, and a tremendous weight is removed. To integrate Saturn is to free Prometheus.

Conscious integration allows full expression of Prometheus and can engender what is often experienced as a revolution in consciousness, a sense of extraordinary existential liberation, mental and intuitive brilliance, enlightenment: Prometheus Unbound. Prometheus-Uranus is the channel of the creative impulse within every psyche; in its highest manifestation, it may be regarded as the impulse toward the full realization of the Self, the creation of a complete human being. For Prometheus’s fire is ultimately the fire of life itself: the Greeks recognized Prometheus as man’s creator." - Rick Tarnas

So, Rick has a different angle and answer on this, that the matter is settled spectacularly between themselves, Saturn and Uranus.

But Lubitz hadn't had his first Saturn return and he was ill, so I'm certain he hadn't even begun the process Rick is describing, nor could he have been capable of doing so.

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Apart from being interested in his chart and what energies were at play, I myself have this aspect (Chiron sits opposite my Saturn-Uranus), as do a few of my friends, as we were born around the time he and Chelsea Manning were born, so all of the insights and analyses of his chart on this thread are of 'double' interest to me

One theme which has been very dominant both for me and for my friends over the past years, has been sheer exhaustion and frustration with the structures of the corporate and/or economic world. We have all been suffocating in our own way, despite the fact we're all in different fields. When this thread started, my instinct was to look at Lufthansa first rather than the co-pilot, which I realise might have been biased (even though I still believe they are largely to blame ), but it does show my hostile mentality towards the current corporate system, which all people my age (who I know) share. If this is indeed a common theme among all of us with this placement, and has been activated with the Pluto/Uranus square (whereby transit Pluto has been conjuncting our natal Uranus/ Saturn, and transit Uranus has been squaring them), then this explains this wide-spread (in my group) passionate desire to $%#@ the system, and it explains the few extreme cases we've seen of people achieving it. With the other heavy placements and aspects in Andreas Lubitz's chart which were identified on this thread, and the other factors from his personal life which appear to be coming to surface, it looks like a pretty explosive combination.

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This is extremely interesting to me, SaturnFan. Of the people you know that have the Chiron opposition to your stelliums, do you know their charts and which houses Chiron is in? Meanwhile, I'm going to check into Chiron in Gemini. Have you thought about your Chiron?

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So, I'm following this thread with great interest, and will be very interested to see your thoughts about Chiron in particular as you mentioned it could have possibly saved him.

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Not sure how much you know about Manning but while working as an intelligence analyst, she exposed the military industrial complex at work in Iraq by releasing reams of evidence to the public through Wikileaks. She took a stand, courageously, against the war machine at great personal cost, long prison sentence - Prometheus Bound. Her story is archetypal, like a Greek tragedy. Unlike Lubitz, she took a stand for life, and against state violence and killing.

You and your friends are up against ? "Zeus" in the form of corporate power and control.

posted April 01, 2015 07:30 AM            

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Originally posted by peony:
Hi SaturnFan, I don't know why it never dawned on me before but it just struck me that Chiron plays a significant role in the Prometheus myth. Then, I look at the pilot's chart and what do I see: a tight Chiron opposition to Saturn-Uranus and the stellium. I like to bring in the Prometheus myth with people who have Saturn-Uranus in the birth chart because I believe it helps to illuminate the struggle - which is archetypal - of people who have these planets in major aspect. But only now has it occurred to me that Chiron's role in the myth may serve a similar role for people with Saturn-Uranus in major aspect in their charts. That the tension and conflict between Zeus, who plays the Saturn role in this myth, and Prometheus-Uranus is resolved through the agency of Chiron. Or maybe that's too literal a way to look at it. I don't know.

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I don't think it's a coincidence, so having a literal look at it is a good approach in my opinion. Since Gemini rules the mind, broadly speaking, and Lubitz apparently had a mental illness (this could have been the wound represented by Chiron in his particular case, of course depending on other factors), then I feel the myth ties in perfectly with what happened. Going by the information which has surfaced, he repressed and denied his illness (hiding medical documents for example) instead of embracing it and finding a way to heal. He seems to have not just ignored his Chiron, but actively fought it as well so it was never integrated in a healthy way. And in the end, if we assume he was in an unstable state of mind when he brought the plane down, his Gemini Chiron is what 'saved' him from the material world and his own struggles, but of course in a monstrous way. This view might be too simplistic, I know - but I feel the Prometheus myth fits very well with what happened, and shows how these archetypal energies can interact in a very destructive way.

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
So, Rick has a different angle and answer on this, that the matter is settled spectacularly between themselves, Saturn and Uranus.

But Lubitz hadn't had his first Saturn return and he was ill, so I'm certain he hadn't even begun the process Rick is describing, nor could he have been capable of doing so.

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The extract from Rick is very powerful, and describes very accurately how people with this placement deal with authority. Lubitz in particular seems to have gone the opposite direction of the process which Rick is describing - he desperately wanted to develop his career in this very rigid and hierarchy-oriented industry, despite his health signalling him to stop or take a break. So in 1 moment he assumed all power for himself, locked out his superior (=authority) and killed 150 people. It's terrifying.

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
This is extremely interesting to me, SaturnFan. Of the people you know that have the Chiron opposition to your stelliums, do you know their charts and which houses Chiron is in? Meanwhile, I'm going to check into Chiron in Gemini. Have you thought about your Chiron?

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I have looked into it a little, but never in depth. Now I certainly will research it heavily! What I found when checking for myself and my friends is that it certainly represents a problematic area which we struggle to explore, and since it sits opposite a stellium (including Saturn-Uranus) it's exceptionally difficult to address it. A few examples:
1. One friend has her Stellium in 4H and Chiron in 10H. She has always been very family oriented and was the first to marry in our group (in 2012 when the Pluto/Uranus square was in full force) and was hell bent on building a family. Ever since she got married she has been in a very deep depression about what to do with her life. She does not work, has interests and hobbies in many areas, but finds it incredibly painful to associate them with earning money, and struggles furiously with the idea of starting a corporate job (which she feels is her only option to have a good income). Career and vocation is a major source of pain for her (10H Chiron) which prevents her from finding fulfilment in her marriage.
2. Another one has a 2H Stellium opposite 8H Chiron. She has enormous self-worth issues, is deeply scared of money and rebels against the idea of working in an established place. While friend 1 feels like it's her fault for not being able to earn money through a talent, friend 2 rejects the traditional idea of working altogether and feels there are other ways of living, but has been struggling to find her path and has been forced to work here and there (without ever aiming to build a career) in order to support herself.
3. I have a 5H Chiron opposite 11H Stellium. With me self-expression has always been an issue (feeling guilty when having fun, not confident about my value, relying on other people tell me what my worth is and how to express it). I've been in the corporate world for 9 years now and got a lot of false sense of accomplishment there, as managers constantly would praise my talents and then redirect them to whatever goal they needed implemented. This all led to an identity crisis over, and it took me a long time to work out what my own vision of my future is. When I think about utilising all my energy and talent just to ultimately increase the money flow to some shareholders, it sickens me. Now I'm building an exit plan out of my job and the corporate world in general and am heading in a completely different direction. But it's a true struggle and it shapes up to get worse before it gets better.

There are other examples, but I don't want to hijack this thread I think the common theme, which connects all of us and our vastly different circumstances, is that we feel we do not fit into the current economic structures.

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
Not sure how much you know about Manning but while working as an intelligence analyst, she exposed the military industrial complex at work in Iraq by releasing reams of evidence to the public through Wikileaks. She took a stand, courageously, against the war machine at great personal cost, long prison sentence - Prometheus Bound. Her story is archetypal, like a Greek tragedy. Unlike Lubitz, she took a stand for life, and against state violence and killing.

You and your friends are up against ? "Zeus" in the form of corporate power and control.

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I'm familiar with Manning and have very deep admiration for her. I sincerely hope this brave act, even though severely punished, has only been the start of a bigger mind shift. Since this age group is now collectively heading to our Saturn return, after having been shaken up by the Pluto/Uranus square, hopefully there'll be a wider revolution of sorts, instead of 1 person acting alone and then taking all the heat.

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Thanks peony and SaturnFan for this interesting discussion; I can second your take as someone with a natal Chiron conj. Mars and Jupiter, opp. Uranus and sq. Saturn. However, unlike in that pilot's case, this structure doesn't directly affect the luminaries in my chart.

Anyway, your explanation of how this kind of energy influences one's relationship with and response to large corporate systems/ oppressive structures is spot on. Now I wondered whether Edward Snowden has anything of that sort - and guess what? His Chiron is quincunx Saturn and Pluto (which are conjunct), and opposite Uranus and Jupiter (which are also conjunct). His Mars is on his True Node...combined with his Aqua MC and Sun opp. Neptune this probably made him consider the interests of humanity at large at the cost of his own well-being; and Scorp Moon plus Gemini Sun and AC gave him the resources to survive as of yet, and go about the whole thing intelligently.

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posted April 01, 2015 06:06 PM            

SaturnFan: Would you be able to likewise change the section of your reply where you quoted me?

posted April 01, 2015 06:21 PM            

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Originally posted by peony:
One day would make a substantial difference for sure in the Moon's placement, and depending on the TOB the houses, and the planets within the houses. But in addition to the Sun and the outer planets, they share close conjunctions between Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Chiron, and the nodes. That's a lot. I also think the Sun-Saturn-Uranus, Mars-Pluto, and Jupiter by sign and aspects to the stellium were the main actors in this tragedy.

Mythologically, the Saturn-Uranus conjunction relates to that part of the Prometheus myth when Zeus chains Prometheus to a rock where the double-headed eagle tears at his liver. Prometheus being synonymous with Uranus. It was Chiron who freed Prometheus and in this chart it opposes the Sagittarius stellium. Could his Chiron have "saved" him? I'll have to think about that some more.

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That's true, the Moon moves faster than any other planet though the natal chart, the most likely to end-up in a different sign and also - an important placement, since it's defining for our behavior (being representative for our emotional nature), if not the most important - from this point of view. Then there's the 12 Houses - which have their saying (since they reflect all the areas of our lives - and can show where we focus most of our energy and in what way) and the aspects - which can imply a different (easy or hard - where both have ups and downs) or a stronger influence for a specific placement (depending on the strength of the orb). In this specific case - you're right, other than the Moon - there's no other planet that can shift in a different sign. And same goes for other cases, where - the personal planets are to far from the cusp to move in a different sign through the course of one day - though, same can't be said about Retrogrades. I already knew the ABC's of astrology when I wrote that post :) - so, i apologize for giving a brief and incomplete response - while focusing only on the Sun and the generational planets. Was my last post before going to sleep - and didn't got the chance to check Manny's chart either, cause that response - was mainly aimed at the differences between two people born around the same time, while thinking of another post:

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Originally posted by athenegoddess:
OMgosh he was born one day after my ex bf's b day and he would never do something like that and he isn't depressed.

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...and, while remembering people I know from my own experience - people who were born in same day - especially twins, yet, their character and their path through life - seems to be worlds apart. In the past, I dabbled a lot with this subject (people born in same day and yet - so different) - since it seemed to be regarded as a paradox - which contested the reliability of Astrology. For most people - the differences in terms of background - seemed to be one explanation, though - that didn't hold with twins. Apparently - even identical twins have slightly different brains and same goes for their genes, thus on the exterior - they might look the same, but internally they're already wired differently (that wiring takes place while they're inside their mother's womb). Also, it's not a matter of choice - to be an introvert or an extrovert, we're actually - born that way. I guess, it's safe to say that - each and everyone of us is somehow unique. :) And by unique - i don't mean special, but simply... different, or slightly different - as it's the case with identical twins. Among other things, that uniqueness - paired with the celestial influences - it's suppose to be defining for our sense of self, for the choices we make and why we make those choices.

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However, even twins who think differently can be very similar in temperament and other personality variables. Bouchard did not find outstanding similarities between identical twins on such standard measures as IQ tests or standardized personality tests, but he did find striking similarities were mannerisms (such as wearing rubber bands on the wrists, or reading magazines backwards), personal choices (such as choice of names for pets or children, or choice of clothing styles), and expressive social behavior (shyness or social ease, laughter, facial expressions and posture). These are exactly the sorts of things many of us refer to as personality, so in that sense Bouchard's findings can be interpreted as strong support for genetic influences on personality.

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For example: an introvert who shares an identical chart (born at the same minute or second) - with an extrovert, would obviously - go different ways most of the time. In same context, an individual who's prone to a certain illness due to a given gene - while the other is not, if he does get ill - his life path could change considerably compared to another - who's influenced in exactly the same way from above, and it's quite likely that - things are also different below (if not worlds apart).

All those differences are quite noticeable - between Lubitz and Manny.

And here's a positive example of someone born in same day with Lubitz (18 December 1987):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miki_Ando

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Miki Ando (born December 18, 1987) is a Japanese former figure skater. She is the 2007 and 2011 World champion, 2011 Four Continents champion, 2004 World Junior champion, and a three-time (2004, 2005 & 2010) Japanese national champion.

Ando is the first and only female skater to complete a quadruple jump successfully in competition. She accomplished this at the 2002–2003 Junior Grand Prix Final in The Hague.

Personal life

Ando was born in Nagoya, Japan in 1987. Her father died when she was eight years old.[1] In 2006, Ando joined Toyota and also entered Chukyo University as an adult learner, from which she graduated in March 2011.[2][3] She learned English during her time training in the U.S.[1] In January 2013, she left Toyota Motor.

Ando gave birth to a girl in April 2013.

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^^

I guess that answers my earlier question, though - the answer is not that surprising. Apparently, one can become a true master of balance with those placements - while investing all that energy in a discipline like - figure skating.

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The main point I'm making is that two people can share and manifest the same formidable archetypal energies in radically different ways. That's because souls are at different levels of evolution and that's not something that can be determined, at least not in exoteric astrology.

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That's actually, what i was aiming for as well - with that late night post. Though, i only scratched the surface - while remembering people i know from real life (i didn't go that deep - at that time). As one, who believes in the continuity between past and present lives - i can agree with your statement. But, you know... depending on a given role - on what the soul might need to experience in this life to evolve - that could also imply a conditioned lacking in some regard. Even a lacking in terms of spiritual awareness - for example, cause spiritual awareness - gives you the option to step out of the game... thus, you won't be affected by celestial influences - as described by astrology, since - you'll loose interest in the ego driven world and all its ego driven struggles.

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Yes, Snowden is one of the heroes of our time. Very curious that he leaked all this information during his own Saturn Return. I also wonder about the people who founded and are leading Anonymous, since this is a very powerful and intelligent rebellion against all existing power structures - but sadly, there's no chance we can find a chart of a member there
It's so unfortunate that Lubitz seems to have had a lot of this energy in his own chart, but succumbed to its most destructive and negative manifestation.

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Some members were unmasked: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/anonymous-hackers_n_3398282.html

And let's not forget, Aaron Swartz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz - as he was another hero of our time. :(

There's also a video with his life's story: The Internet's Own Boy: The Story of Aaron Swartz (CC available)

posted April 02, 2015 02:54 AM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Thanks peony and SaturnFan for this interesting discussion; I can second your take as someone with a natal Chiron conj. Mars and Jupiter, opp. Uranus and sq. Saturn. However, unlike in that pilot's case, this structure doesn't directly affect the luminaries in my chart.

Anyway, your explanation of how this kind of energy influences one's relationship with and response to large corporate systems/ oppressive structures is spot on. Now I wondered whether Edward Snowden has anything of that sort - and guess what? His Chiron is quincunx Saturn and Pluto (which are conjunct), and opposite Uranus and Jupiter (which are also conjunct). His Mars is on his True Node...combined with his Aqua MC and Sun opp. Neptune this probably made him consider the interests of humanity at large at the cost of his own well-being; and Scorp Moon plus Gemini Sun and AC gave him the resources to survive as of yet, and go about the whole thing intelligently.

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Vajra, thank you for starting this thread! I've been thinking of Edward Snowden also in light of this discussion. I saw Glenn Greenwald's interview of Snowden shortly after the story broke. He struck me as mature for his age. It's noteworthy that, as SaturnFan pointed out, he leaked the information around the time of his Saturn return. I thought the way he played out and handled the situation he was in and in the face of the U.S. government's pressure applied to foreign governments in order to thwart and apprehend him was impressive. I thought he acted in a mature and responsible way (Saturn) to protect our Fourth Amendment rights and freedoms (Uranus) against NSA intrusion (Saturn-Pluto), with help from people like Julian Assange and others, of course.

It's also interesting to me to see the differences in the fate and personality of Edward Snowden with the Jupiter-Uranus conjunction, on the one hand, and the tragedy of Lubitz and Manning, with Saturn-Uranus on the other.

posted April 02, 2015 03:58 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
I don't think it's a coincidence, so having a literal look at it is a good approach in my opinion. Since Gemini rules the mind, broadly speaking, and Lubitz apparently had a mental illness (this could have been the wound represented by Chiron in his particular case, of course depending on other factors), then I feel the myth ties in perfectly with what happened. Going by the information which has surfaced, he repressed and denied his illness (hiding medical documents for example) instead of embracing it and finding a way to heal. He seems to have not just ignored his Chiron, but actively fought it as well so it was never integrated in a healthy way. And in the end, if we assume he was in an unstable state of mind when he brought the plane down, his Gemini Chiron is what 'saved' him from the material world and his own struggles, but of course in a monstrous way. This view might be too simplistic, I know - but I feel the Prometheus myth fits very well with what happened, and shows how these archetypal energies can interact in a very destructive way.

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SaturnFan, I think you're spot on that Lubitz tried to split off and repress his Chiron. But, maybe that's what sealed his fate because in doing so, he also cut himself off from Chiron's healing as well. This is what Chiron is all about, healing which comes from the wound itself. Maybe that's a lesson for you and others who have the Chiron opposition to Saturn-Uranus, that is, not to repress Chiron, not to deny the wound, but to face into it in order to receive Chiron's healing. I would add that I think facing into rather than resisting one's vulnerability comes more naturally to a feminine sensibility than a masculine one. I want to be clear that I'm talking about the archetypal feminine, not men and women. Women can have problems with vulnerability just as men can.

Of course this is only speculation on my part but I believe that what compelled Lubitz to deny his Chiron was his love of flying. I think he's what's called in depth psychology a "puer aeternus," in other words, a Peter pan or eternal youth. The puer archetype is connected with a yearning for transcendence, in other words, a spiritual impulse. In concrete terms, this is equated with flying, the sky being closest to the heavenly firmanent. I think many pilots are puers and flying is symbolic of what is essentially a spiritual drive. Antoine de St. Exupery, a puer who wrote The Little Prince, was a pilot who died in his early 40s when his plane crashed off the coast of France.

Puers often die before their first Saturn return. For example, in the history of rock and roll, there are scores of people who died at 27. Kurt Cobain of Nirvana is someone you'll recognize, but others include Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Amy Winehouse, Jim Morrison of the Doors, and many others.

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I also wonder about the people who founded and are leading Anonymous, since this is a very powerful and intelligent rebellion against all existing power structures - but sadly, there's no chance we can find a chart of a member there

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One member of Anonymous that I'm aware of has been arrested and has been identified. I don't know if his birth data is known though.

I think Anonymous is an expression of Uranus in Aries - "powerful and intelligent rebellion" - "against all existing power structures" (square Pluto in Capricorn).

posted April 02, 2015 05:11 AM            

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
peony, all done

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posted April 02, 2015 06:25 AM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Thanks peony and SaturnFan for this interesting discussion; I can second your take as someone with a natal Chiron conj. Mars and Jupiter, opp. Uranus and sq. Saturn. However, unlike in that pilot's case, this structure doesn't directly affect the luminaries in my chart.

Anyway, your explanation of how this kind of energy influences one's relationship with and response to large corporate systems/ oppressive structures is spot on. Now I wondered whether Edward Snowden has anything of that sort - and guess what? His Chiron is quincunx Saturn and Pluto (which are conjunct), and opposite Uranus and Jupiter (which are also conjunct). His Mars is on his True Node...combined with his Aqua MC and Sun opp. Neptune this probably made him consider the interests of humanity at large at the cost of his own well-being; and Scorp Moon plus Gemini Sun and AC gave him the resources to survive as of yet, and go about the whole thing intelligently.

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I see - he's a fellow Gem from '83, and, except for Moon and Mercury we have the planets in the same zodiac signs - with similar conjunctions for the generational planets and same goes for Sun and Mars, same oppositions for Chiron, same trines for NN and other similar aspects here and there. Though, that difference of 14 days - implied a major shift in terms of houses and all kind of different aspects - that had their share of influence on his character (plus other internal - external factors). Even so - what he did... that's a noble sacrifice - i understand to well. I'm glad, to see so many people (including those from this topic ^^) - who feel the same, about corporate systems with hidden agendas - that can affect the freedom and well-being of other people, same goes for oppressive structures - who revolve mainly around the company's interests - at the expense of others. I see this (the crumbling of such structures) - as a necessary path in human evolution and its long quest for freedom - for all. Probably, even the next step - one that's defining for the Age of Aquarius.

quote:

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One member of Anonymous that I'm aware of has been arrested and has been identified. I don't know if his birth data is known though.

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From the previous link, Jeremy Hammond - has a birth date (unknown time):

posted April 02, 2015 08:13 AM            

Lorazepam, oh, wow, you are not allowed to drive a shopping cart with that one! Aren't they supposed to be tested for drugs, not to mention what kind of psychological tests does Lufthansa use? This is definitely the fault of the system and/or the air company. It's unacceptable for something like this to go unnoticed.

I wonder if this originates from the desire to show tolerance and inclusion of people with psychiatric history? The fact that various conditions are labeled with the more "acceptable" term "depression" He declared a previous depressive episode, yet he was accepted as pilot?

This apparently very ill man was right, this will definitely change aviation rules

In the meantime, astro com already introduced Mr Lubitz in their database and it seems his POB is uncertain
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lubitz,_Andreas

------------------
I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted April 02, 2015 10:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:

SaturnFan, I think you're spot on that Lubitz tried to split off and repress his Chiron. But, maybe that's what sealed his fate because in doing so, he also cut himself off from Chiron's healing as well. This is what Chiron is all about, healing which comes from the wound itself. Maybe that's a lesson for you and others who have the Chiron opposition to Saturn-Uranus, that is, not to repress Chiron, not to deny the wound, but to face into it in order to receive Chiron's healing. I would add that I think facing into rather than resisting one's vulnerability comes more naturally to a feminine sensibility than a masculine one. I want to be clear that I'm talking about the archetypal feminine, not men and women. Women can have problems with vulnerability just as men can.

Of course this is only speculation on my part but I believe that what compelled Lubitz to deny his Chiron was his love of flying. I think he's what's called in depth psychology a "puer aeternus," in other words, a Peter pan or eternal youth. The puer archetype is connected with a yearning for transcendence, in other words, a spiritual impulse. In concrete terms, this is equated with flying, the sky being closest to the heavenly firmanent. I think many pilots are puers and flying is symbolic of what is essentially a spiritual drive. Antoine de St. Exupery, a puer who wrote The Little Prince, was a pilot who died in his early 40s when his plane crashed off the coast of France.

Puers often die before their first Saturn return. For example, in the history of rock and roll, there are scores of people who died at 27. Kurt Cobain of Nirvana is someone you'll recognize, but others include Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Amy Winehouse, Jim Morrison of the Doors, and many others.

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One thing I'm learning from this is that Chiron deserves much more attention than it is getting. I remember someone put a list of things they had learned about astrology on this forum, and one of them was "Treat Chiron as a planet" - very true.
Interesting observation about Puers. It made me think of a friend/colleague of mine who was my mentor at my job a few years ago. She died in 2008 when she was 27-28, out of exhaustion - long story short, her body just gave up, after she had spent years in trying to be the very best at her job, by pleasing both her bosses and her staff, and left no room for absolutely nothing else in her life. She definitely had a child-like charm and personality, she was an incredibly idealistic and kind person. She probably fits your Puers description to some extent. I wonder what role disillusionment is playing in all these examples.

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Originally posted by 7thGuardian:

I see - he's a fellow Gem from '83, and, except for Moon and Mercury we have the planets in the same zodiac signs - with similar conjunctions for the generational planets and same goes for Sun and Mars, same oppositions for Chiron, same trines for NN and other similar aspects here and there. Though, that difference of 14 days - implied a major shift in terms of houses and all kind of different aspects - that had their share of influence on his character (plus other internal - external factors). Even so - what he did... that's a noble sacrifice - i understand to well. I'm glad, to see so many people (including those from this topic ^^) - who feel the same, about corporate systems with hidden agendas - that can affect the freedom and well-being of other people, same goes for oppressive structures - who revolve mainly around the company's interests - at the expense of others. I see this (the crumbling of such structures) - as a necessary path in human evolution and its long quest for freedom - for all. Probably, even the next step - one that's defining for the Age of Aquarius.

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Yes, we have been discussing the Saturn-Uranus conjunction and its opposition to Chiron as a great influencing factor, but it spans way beyond this. From what I've been reading, the Pluto in Scorpio generation as a whole is one that has the potential to bring down existing corporate structures. Pluto is supposed to bring balance by integrating the whole axis of its position, so the Scorpio Pluto generation could bring about changes of Taurus quality (better food, better working conditions, better economy as a whole, focus on health?). I'm happy to see so many people are frustrated with the current system, it means that it has served its purpose and will change (hopefully sooner rather than later).

quote:

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Originally posted by 7thGuardian:
From the previous link, Jeremy Hammond - has a birth date

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Wow, thank you for finding this!

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

This apparently very ill man was right, this will definitely change aviation rules

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posted April 02, 2015 11:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Yes, we have been discussing the Saturn-Uranus conjunction and its opposition to Chiron as a great influencing factor, but it spans way beyond this. From what I've been reading, the Pluto in Scorpio generation as a whole is one that has the potential to bring down existing corporate structures. Pluto is supposed to bring balance by integrating the whole axis of its position, so the Scorpio Pluto generation could bring about changes of Taurus quality (better food, better working conditions, better economy as a whole, focus on health?). I'm happy to see so many people are frustrated with the current system, it means that it has served its purpose and will change (hopefully sooner rather than later).

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So, are you saying that ultimately Lubitz's actions are going to help bring down existing corporate structures?

I just wrote this last night to a friend:

Her Pluto in Scorpio has a keen sense of the pathologies within society and the human psyche. It’s like Neo’s recognition in the Matrix movie, that there’s something deeply wrong with the world. She is drawn to mysteries, to what is taboo and profane.

Her Pluto in Scorpio generation is concerned with the ideal of shared resources and the idea of sharing through self-created networks, like for example, the idea of intentional communities. Shared resources may be economic, ecological, or others through advances in technology during this decade. Pluto in Scorpio is attuned to crisis so it would follow that her generation is acutely aware of the finite nature of global resources and a need to share.

posted April 02, 2015 11:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
To think he could have been an actual hero, if he had channeled his powerful energy in a different way.

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Yes, from the perspective of one lifetime that's so true. I believe that in the long run the mending and healing will come to pass for everyone involved, and sometime on the karmic wheel, he will learn.

posted April 02, 2015 12:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
So, are you saying that ultimately Lubitz's actions are going to help bring down existing corporate structures?

I just wrote this last night to a friend:

Her Pluto in Scorpio has a keen sense of the pathologies within society and the human psyche. It’s like Neo’s recognition in the Matrix movie, that there’s something deeply wrong with the world. She is drawn to mysteries, to what is taboo and profane.

Her Pluto in Scorpio generation is concerned with the ideal of shared resources and the idea of sharing through self-created networks, like for example, the idea of intentional communities. Shared resources may be economic, ecological, or others through advances in technology during this decade. Pluto in Scorpio is attuned to crisis so it would follow that her generation is acutely aware of the finite nature of global resources and a need to share.

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Hi peony,

In the sense that his actions have discredited one of the most reliable corporations, especially in the most vulnerable point of this industry: how they secure safety; he put to question whether the way they manage their business is even adequate (apparently they knew about his illness). If this leads to improved policies around mentally ill employees, then his monstrous act would have had one positive transformational effect. But when it comes to bringing down, or fundamentally transforming corporate structures, I don't think so. Manning abdolutely did help though.

posted April 02, 2015 12:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Hi peony,

In the sense that his actions have discredited one of the most reliable corporations, especially in the most vulnerable point of this industry: how they secure safety; he put to question whether the way they manage their business is even adequate (apparently they knew about his illness). If this leads to improved policies around mentally ill employees, then his monstrous act would have had one positive transformational effect. But when it comes to bringing down, or fundamentally transforming corporate structures, I don't think so. Manning absolutely did help though.

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Oh, I see. I was just thinking I'm not sure a transformation of corporate structures is going to happen as a result, but it looks like the airline has a class action lawsuit on its hands. But, Lubitz concealing evidence of his illness may limit their liability.

posted April 02, 2015 08:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Aren't they supposed to be tested for drugs, not to mention what kind of psychological tests does Lufthansa use? This is definitely the fault of the system and/or the air company. It's unacceptable for something like this to go unnoticed.

I wonder if this originates from the desire to show tolerance and inclusion of people with psychiatric history? The fact that various conditions are labeled with the more "acceptable" term "depression" He declared a previous depressive episode, yet he was accepted as pilot?

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LeeLoo, Lufthansa's CEO, Carsten Spohr, was inteviewed on CNN and said that Lubitz had passed all his tests and medical exams and "gave no voluntary indication that he was unstable or mentally ill." So, a pilot's disclosure of any problems with their mental state is voluntary and they can make an admission without incurring any punishment. Presumably, the voluntary policy is to encourage people to come forward and disclose information. But in any event, those tests and exams are unreliable. That's scary.

posted April 02, 2015 08:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
I think the common theme, which connects all of us and our vastly different circumstances, is that we feel we do not fit into the current economic structures.

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Thanks for going through the trouble of writing on Chiron placements in your friend's charts. The astrology says you don't fit and aren't meant to. I may have mentioned this already, can't remember. You and your friends have a more advanced or evolved vision of how things should be done and run. I think as a group you're here to change the system and to ground your vision by creating new structures, whether these be governmental, social, political, or economic. Uranus-Neptune-Saturn has to do with grounding (Saturn) new paradigms based on a new vision of reality (Uranus-Neptune). I believe this is your generation’s responsibility. What came up about Chiron's presence in this configuration, could be that accomplishing this "assigned" task will help effect the mending and healing of the planet. Do you have a book on Chiron or would you like some input on Chiron in Gemini/3rd house? I have Melanie Reinhart's book.

Anyway, thanks for seeing this Lubitz event in a wider context. I just saw this:

Dear Humanity, We Have a Systems Problem': New Project Aims to Promote Deep Solutions, Radical Transformation

It's Time to Face the Depth of the Systemic Crisis We Confront
http://commondreams.org/news/2015/04/02/dear-humanity-we- have-systems-problem-new-project-aims-promote-deep-solutions

posted April 02, 2015 09:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 7thGuardian:
I guess that answers my earlier question, though - the answer is not that surprising. Apparently, one can become a true master of balance with those placements - while investing all that energy in a discipline like - figure skating.

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I believe so, yes. I don't know enough about her, but she certainly appears to have channeled the energies in her chart to accomplish something positive and worthwhile!

posted April 03, 2015 06:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
Thanks for going through the trouble of writing on Chiron placements in your friend's charts. The astrology says you don't fit and aren't meant to. I may have mentioned this already, can't remember. You and your friends have a more advanced or evolved vision of how things should be done and run. I think as a group you're here to change the system and to ground your vision by creating new structures, whether these be governmental, social, political, or economic. Uranus-Neptune-Saturn has to do with grounding (Saturn) new paradigms based on a new vision of reality (Uranus-Neptune). I believe this is your generation’s responsibility. What came up about Chiron's presence in this configuration, could be that accomplishing this "assigned" task will help effect the mending and healing of the planet. Do you have a book on Chiron or would you like some input on Chiron in Gemini/3rd house? I have Melanie Reinhart's book.

Anyway, thanks for seeing this Lubitz event in a wider context. I just saw this:

Dear Humanity, We Have a Systems Problem': New Project Aims to Promote Deep Solutions, Radical Transformation

It's Time to Face the Depth of the Systemic Crisis We Confront
http://commondreams.org/news/2015/04/02/dear-humanity-we- have-systems-problem-new-project-aims-promote-deep-solutions

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hey peony
Thank you for this! Your whole post is very encouraging , and the link is very, very interesting, I'll keep an eye on that.

I don't have any books on Chiron, so if you ever are in the mood for it, I'd be very grateful if you can post some info on Chiron in Gemini (it might shed even more light on Lubitz, apart from helping the rest of us with the placement). I've been researching online articles about Chiron in the meantime, it's eye-opening to say the least!

posted April 03, 2015 07:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
LeeLoo, Lufthansa's CEO, Carsten Spohr, was inteviewed on CNN and said that Lubitz had passed all his tests and medical exams and "gave no voluntary indication that he was unstable or mentally ill." So, a pilot's disclosure of any problems with their mental state is voluntary and they can make an admission without incurring any punishment. Presumably, the voluntary policy is to encourage people to come forward and disclose information. But in any event, those tests and exams are unreliable. That's scary.

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Yeah, right, most mentally ill patients are very eager to admit it, especially the ones who had been preparing since childhood to become pilots. This sounds like a silly statement to me, considering a high percentage of mentally ill patients don't even consider themselves ill (and they are legally irresponsible globally). Well, obviously it's not a silly statement, more like following legal advice, since it's the policy for air companies to not admit guilt or responsibility in such instances, not even after the huge liabilities Lufthansa will have to pay for this.

I hope pilots with "questionable" files are not "distributed" towards the low-cost branch of air companies such as Germanwings

In my opinion, someone with a history of psychological problems of any kind does not belong in the cockpit of a commercial plane. As it happens, Lubitz "voluntary" admitted his previous "depressive episode" when hired, so Mr Spohr's argument is dismissed

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted April 03, 2015 01:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Yeah, right, most mentally ill patients are very eager to admit it, especially the ones who had been preparing since childhood to become pilots. This sounds like a silly statement to me, considering a high percentage of mentally ill patients don't even consider themselves ill (and they are legally irresponsible globally). Well, obviously it's not a silly statement, more like following legal advice, since it's the policy for air companies to not admit guilt or responsibility in such instances, not even after the huge liabilities Lufthansa will have to pay for this.

I hope pilots with "questionable" files are not "distributed" towards the low-cost branch of air companies such as Germanwings

In my opinion, someone with a history of psychological problems of any kind does not belong in the cockpit of a commercial plane. As it happens, Lubitz "voluntary" admitted his previous "depressive episode" when hired, so Mr Spohr's argument is dismissed

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Good points, LeeLoo. I hadn't seen that piece of info in your last sentence. Thanks for posting it. If this goes to trial, I wonder if it's going to come down to the expert witnesses. Also, the defense can't deny liability and now it's probably a matter of limiting the amount of the damages, if they can. Even if the company settles for a humongous amount of money, the question becomes will they pay out or how much. In the U.S., BP caused enormous damage in the Gulf to people's lives and the environment for generations and last I heard they were trying to wiggle out of paying up. If this had happened in the U.S. and a civil case stemming from it got to the Supreme Court, the Roberts court would probably rule in favor of the company. I don't know how it is in the EU but government here in the U.S., including both major political parties, are largely wedded to corporations committed only to their narrow self-interests.