posted April 03, 2015 02:41 PM            

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Yes, fingers crossed for a huge public debate.

hey peony
Thank you for this! Your whole post is very encouraging , and the link is very, very interesting, I'll keep an eye on that.

I don't have any books on Chiron, so if you ever are in the mood for it, I'd be very grateful if you can post some info on Chiron in Gemini (it might shed even more light on Lubitz, apart from helping the rest of us with the placement). I've been researching online articles about Chiron in the meantime, it's eye-opening to say the least!

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You've already pointed out the link of Chiron in Gemini with mental issues. Reinhart starts out also making this point. This is the part that evidently applies to Lubitz. That the person may feel that the mind is wounded and unreliable. There might be a fear of mental disintegration or being subject to storms of activity that the person does not understand. Amassing as much information as possible is an attempt to understand the turmoil that is going on.

A person with this placement is insecure about what they think, meaning they have trouble believing in their own ideas. They may worry about being right and so defer to others' opinions and ideas. Acquiring information is a kind of safety net to counteract a scattering of thought or fragmentation. The drive to understand everything can become obsessive, causing stress, nervousness, confusion, or dissociation.

If a person is mature and has a measure of personal security, he or she is open to higher knowledge from transpersonal sources. They can experience prophetic insights or telepathy, and are sensitive to subtle impressions from higher planes. (This would mean the higher centers are functioning to some extent. If I were the CEO of a company, I'd install a yoga center on the premises and give bonuses to people doing it! lol - no, seriously.)

Reinhart goes on to say that Chiron in Gemini or the third house is often original and brilliant. They like to probe by asking questions, even if it goes into areas most people don't want to enter. She gives three examples of Chiron in the third house. (I wish there were more Chiron in Gemini, but anyway.) Ken Kesey, who turned people onto LSD, Freud who invented the "talking cure," and Werner Heisenberg, the physicist who founded quantum mechanics. The Uncertainty Principle is named after him.

The formulation of Heisenberg's theory came about during a severe attack of hay fever, when discussions with colleagues reached a critical point. During the recovery from his illness, Heisenberg had a peak experience, resulting in a significant breakthrough in his research. In a very Chironic way, his illness became the catalyst for a solution to a problem from a transpersonal source.

I'll come back later with more.

posted April 03, 2015 02:48 PM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
As far as can be seen from the reporting so far, regulation regarding mental health checks of pilots has apparently stipulated that they needed to be checked throughly only once at the beginning of training, but not thereafter. Only regular examinations of their physical health were mandatory, and flight doctors were thus not focused on the mental health aspects at all (and, as one expert pointed out, highly intelligent people are sometimes able to hide their mental health problems even from experts). Thus, the problem here seems to be that someone like Lubitz, who once during the training stage showed marked signs of mental illness, was later readmitted to the career path, which with hindsight clearly was a big mistake. LeeLoo may be right that a misguided form of "tolerance" or "inclusion" policy may have been at play here. Since Lubitz passed that new health test when he was readmitted to training (which included a mental health exam at the time), he was never again officially checked for his mental health state. Today, the news revealed that in addition to several physicians already interrogated by the police on account of medical records found in the co-pilot's apartment, quite a few other physicians (neurologists and psychiatrists) have now come forward on their own account, to testify that they too have been treating Lubitz recently. He seems to have been seeing a hell of a lot of doctors, either in feverish search of a cure, or in order to ensure not a single doctor would be able to have access to all his medical files. Also, his long-term girlfriend (who according to some reports is pregnant) has testified that she had no idea he was in such a bad state, and had actually hoped he was on the road to recovery. The poor woman and his parents don't apparently dare return to their home town, for fear of public hatred which could be unleashed upon them - they, too, are thus among his victims

All in all, I wonder how the legal institutions are going to treat this case. European courts are far less generous regarding damages to be paid for victims compared with US courts, and also, it's possible the airline will not be held totally legally responsible at all if it can be shown they had no way of knowing of the problem, and if there was no legal requirement to have pilots tested regularly for mental health (such a rule would have to have been in place before the accident happened, obviously, to be applicable), and if this should be the common practice of all the world's airlines which seems to be the case. Also, the fact that Lubitz was able to lock the other pilot out was a direct result of anti-terrorism measures installed after 9-11 to prevent plane hijacking, and it would hardly be possible to prove that the airlines should have been able to anticipate this particular new scenario as well - especially since there would be no way of technically preventing both scenarios - a plane hijacking by terrorists, and a pilot hell-bent on crashing the plane to commit suicide - both at the same time. Not saying any of this is satisfactory, but that's probably what will come up at some point. (My dad was an attorney and I got to discuss a lot of cases with him, so that's why I anticipate such a course of events.) However, Lufthansa has already set aside a three-figure million Euro sum for the expected payments and I don't think they will even try to evade paying damages. But no money in the world will bring the dead back to life.

The way I see it, a much closer monitoring of pilots' mental and physical health (including perhaps urine tests for mind-altering substances and psychotropic medication) will be needed in the future, and I guess regulation to that effect is probably forthcoming.

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Vajra, thank you for your excellent comments. I completely agree with your last paragraph.

posted April 03, 2015 02:58 PM            

Oh, I see, about alcohol...it's a stressful job, we would want them relaxed and at ease when we soar together.

posted April 03, 2015 03:09 PM            

When Saturn is not integrated or unconscious, which I believe is the case with Lubitz, Uranus can manifest negatively as "ineffective rebellion, stubborn eccentricity, rigid nonconformity, unreliability, erratic changeability, conflicts with authority figures," (Rick Tarnas) or problems with money or handling the material plane.

posted April 03, 2015 03:20 PM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Thank you, Vajra. Looking forward for that diagnosis and I doubt it's depression.

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Looking at his chart, I think he was bipolar. Sun-Uranus-Jupiter (manic); Sun-Saturn, and probably Moon conjunct his Pluto in Scorpio (depressive). As I recall reading, he wanted to make his mark in a big way and to be remembered for it. Certainly he suffered from delusions of grandeur. I also think his distorted quest for glory is manic and related to his Jupiter in Aries and the trines to Sun and Uranus.

posted April 03, 2015 06:13 PM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Hi 7th Guardian, that's a very nice example to show a different manifestation of those stressful aspects, thank you for posting it! It made me think about another figure skater (this being a sport that demands extreme discipline from a very early age)

How about this for another example of a similarly stressful energy, which was successfully focused on a very specific goal? Interesting, huh?

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Wow, and Pluto is part of the t-square also. Witt is a wonderful example of the positive manifestation of Saturn-Uranus, and also positive Saturn-Pluto, like her extreme discipline. She would make an amazing subject for a bio, particularly if it went into her inner life, and could shed light on these formidable aspects. I can't think of a more challenging t-square, except maybe one in fixed signs.

posted April 03, 2015 11:37 PM            

Reinhart writes that these individuals may need to become conscious of destructive thought patterns stemming from hurts in childhood, unspoken beliefs or attitudes acquired in early family experiences. For example, unconscious decisions may have been made because of painful emotional experiences. That healing comes from uncovering these destructive thought patterns.

The perception of the person's ability to communicate and reality can be at odds. This can manifest in two different ways. Either they communicate very clearly and can receive praise for how well they put thoughts into words, but they don't see this themselves. Or, there may be difficulty articulating their ideas and communicating effectively, but are surprised when they are not understood.

Reinhart mentions that frequently with these placements the parents did not speak about important things in order to spare the child's feelings. As an adult, they may have a hard time communicating their inner feelings and emotions.

Chiron in Gemini or the third house can be intuitive or right brained, which may put them at odds with a more rational, logical education system. The logos function of dividing, clarifying, separating, and discriminating is wounded and can be frightening. It's important for them to find a way to validate their intuitions and to learn to value their original thoughts and express them, for example, with images rather than words. Other manifestations are to overvalue the intellectual or rational mind and to undervalue the irrational. In some cases, there's a denial of mind in favor of feeling and intuition.

The issue of duality is pronounced, especially with Chiron in Gemini. There's an acute awareness of opposites within themselves. It can be frustrating knowing that they can't satisfy opposing aspects of themselves.

Another way this placement manifests is being preoccupied with one's twin or soul mate. Sometimes, there's a sister or brother who is wounded in some way.

posted April 05, 2015 12:15 PM            

Thank you so much for sharing this information about Chiron in Gemini - it's spot on in describing the challenges of this placement, and it is very helpful!

posted April 05, 2015 04:45 PM            

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Originally posted by astra7:
Here is an article highlighting some of the transit/progression. http://astropost.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/multiple-murder-in-charts.html

He has a chart like my neighbor.... Mars conj. Pluto, a sign of murder.

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Astra, that's a good article. Thanks for posting it.

Regarding Mars-Pluto, it can be and certainly is true in this case.

I know of one example, Rudolf Steiner (February 25/27, 1861), who had a Mars-Pluto conjunction, and he was a spiritual teacher and a very evolved human being.

Another example is Felix Baumgartner (April 20, 1969), whose supersonic freefall from an altitude of 128,100 feet from space set a world record. He has a Mars square Pluto.

I think the author makes an important point here:

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Charts don’t show a fate, charts show potential choices to make and the most likely way of life in certain circumstances. And sometimes charts show us the hidden nasty aspects that come out only in hell and only when someone freely chooses to act as one of the devil’s helpers.

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posted April 05, 2015 05:30 PM            

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posted April 05, 2015 06:14 PM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
You're right about that, peony - Witt is an extremely interesting case astrologically, but also given her biography. In her case, I think the energy was harnessed constructively from a very early age (she had an extremely strict, but fair teacher she had an immense respect for) and this propelled her to her extraordinary achievements. However, some of the energy, I think, came to her through external circumstances; since she grew up in Eastern Germany during the Cold War, she thus automatically became part of the socialist state's elite sport system which was heavily tied to propaganda, which gave her and her family a few material benefits, and after her 2nd gold medal she even received the unprecedented permission to relocate to the US and become a professional athlete there; however, she was also put under heavy state surveillance until her relocation, as became clear after 1989, when her state security files showed she had been reported on and spied upon incessantly even by people she trusted and considered friends. Meanwhile, in Western Germany she had been publicly vilified for years because of her socialist political background/the way she was used for propaganda by the state, even though she was "just an athlete" and had little if any control over these things, as she's always pointed out. She has written an autobiography dealing with such topics.

To sum up, I think the somewhat bizarre circumstances she involuntarily found herself subjected to during her youth may also be a result of that T-Square energy.

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Vajra, thank you for providing some biographical details for Witt. I will look into her autobiography. I agree with your conclusion (last paragraph).

I believe reading biographies is very useful for astrologers to understand the myriad of ways planetary archetypes play out in human lives and history.

posted April 05, 2015 10:15 PM            

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
peony,

Thank you so much for sharing this information about Chiron in Gemini - it's spot on in describing the challenges of this placement, and it is very helpful!

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SaturnFan, your welcome. I'm glad it was useful, and thank you for the feedback. I was wondering how accurate it was for you.

posted April 05, 2015 11:19 PM            

Chesley Sullenberger (January 23, 1951), is a retired airline captain, an expert on aviation safety, and accident investigator. He is hailed as a national hero in the U.S.

On January 15, 2009, as pilot of US Airways Flight 1549, Sullenberger successfully executed an emergency landing in the Hudson River off Manhattan in New York, when the airplane hit a flock of birds and both engines were disabled.

Sullenberger safely brought down the plane and saved all 155 passengers and crew. Like Lubitz, he has Saturn and Uranus in major aspect. But Saturn is a focal point of a cardinal t-square with Uranus and Mercury, and trines his Sun. A cardinal t-square has to do with problem solving and crisis intervention. But, in an unbalanced individual and a difficult upbringing, I think that t-square could have caused psychological problems. The Saturn-Uranus square is a good example of his specialty, airline safety (Uranus relating to accidents, and Saturn to safety). Sullenberger's Mars is well aspected, conjunct Jupiter and trine Uranus, which I think accounts for his hero status and his success and good fortune in life.

posted April 06, 2015 03:02 PM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
There are very few pilot suicides based on mental illness. Thank Goodness.

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posted April 07, 2015 12:38 AM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Great example, peony! I remember that Hudson river emergency landing well, it seemed like a complete miracle.

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Vajra, do you recall, why did it seem miraculous? How difficult a feat is it to land a plane on water without engines? I have no idea.

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And look at that H1 Chiron close to the AC! It's even within orb to form a T-Square of its own with Saturn and Uranus. We get to see a nice spectrum of possible manifestations of hard Uranus-Saturn-Chiron energy in this thread! But this pilot has True Node in Pisces, Neptune in H10 close to the MC, and Pars Fortunae in H6 - thus an orientation towards servicing others and saving others, maybe?

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I didn't even think about Chiron and there he is again with Saturn and Uranus! Sullenberger's got the t-square, but then there's all those supportive trines and sextiles!

Neptune in the 10H and it trines Venus! Yes, I think what Carlos Casteneda calls "the tonal," that is, the soul's vehicle of expression in the world, would need to encompass something larger than himself, a humanitarian or spiritual orientation.

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OT, but - looking at that chart is slightly weird for me, because my own cardinal T-Square looks very similar - Saturn at the apex sq. Uranus on one side and sq. Chiron (plus Jupiter and Mars) on the other....good to know it can turn out so positive.

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That's a complex configuration with all those planets. Do you mind my asking, does your t-square involve the same houses as Sully? Are there any trines or sextiles to it?